Thursday, June 18, 2009

Catholic Care adoption agency faces £75,000 legal bill

Cranmer exhorted the excellent adoption agency Catholic Care (Diocese of Leeds) to bring their case to court instead of simply complying with the legislation which sought to undermine millennia of Christian tradition. And so they did, appealing against the Charity Commission's refusal to grant them permission to change their constitution which would have permitted them to continue placing children exclusively with heterosexual couples. Catholic Care had wanted to use an exemption in the Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations 2007 that allows charities to discriminate if their constitutions permit it.

They lost, and the judgement of the Charity Tribunal is HERE.

And now they face a bill of £75,000, which the National Secular Society calls ‘the cost of bigotry’.

This was never about what might be best for the child, but rather how can the Government impose its politically-correct anti-discrimination agenda upon the Church. As other adoption agencies caved in, rolled over, gave up and voluntarily threw themselves on the smouldering faggots, Cranmer asked where was their backbone? Where was their moral fibre? Where was their conviction, their faith, their capacity to endure until the end?

Only Mark Wiggin, chief executive of Catholic Care, appeared to possess any of the stuff of which martyrs are made. Even their co-plaintiff, Father Hudson's Society, withdrew their appeal after a directions hearing, having already forked out £45,000. Mr Wiggin said: “There aren't many charities with reserves for that kind of expense. We have a base of Catholics who support us, but not every charity has that."

Cranmer would have started a collection to help defray these costs, but it transpires that the charity had an income of £4.2m in 2007/08.

They are presently considering an appeal to the High Court.

Again, Cranmer exhorts them to pursue this not only to the High Court but to the House of Lords and even to Her Majesty the Queen. Do not try to avoid persecution but instead pray for perseverance.

And if funding for such an undertaking be beyond the operating costs of Catholic Care, His Grace shall be delighted to open his Collection Plate and pour out the abundant generosity of his communicants to help defray their legal costs.

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


Blogger Gnostic said...

I'm on message with this one, Your Grace. Having such a divisive judgement foisted upon the Catholic Adoption agencies is so WRONG. Shame there isn't a special kind of hell for politically correct Nazis.

18 June 2009 at 16:03  
Blogger UKViewer said...

Well written. This is not a European Directive, it is all the Governments and pressure groups own work!

Soon, it will be a crime to be a Christian. Perhaps when we all go underground, we will be more like the early church - persecuted but knowing who is right.

18 June 2009 at 16:30  
Blogger Young Mr. Brown said...

Mr Gnostic,
Why would some people need a special kind of hell? Do you not believe that the ordinary one is good enough?

Mr. Cranmer,
We are living in very dark days, and you are to be thanked for your encouraging words.

The joke was quite good too.

18 June 2009 at 17:06  
Anonymous Got the Guts to wear God said...

Do the politically correct groups think about the children involved? Children have enough pressures at school. Having two dads would subject them to enormous ridicule and bullying. I admire Catholic Care for making a stand and advocating what they believe in. It's high time we all did this. More and more we're being bullied by the political elite into selling out our values. Catholic Care has been going for years and done much good work. The PC brigade harps on about paedophiles in the church, and rightly so, but we cannot tarnish all Catholics with the same brush. I'm not homophobic but I don't think having two homosexual parents is a stable up-bringing for a child. Yes I've heard all the arguments regarding unstable heterosexual parents...but at the end of the day, it is women who give birth and men that impregnate them. Yawn, yawn, to the transgender shenanigans as was highlighted by the politically correct brigade recently...the man in question was a woman!

18 June 2009 at 17:11  
Blogger PaulineG said...

Interesting comment from the National Secular Society (aren't they all?). I agree: This is the cost of bigotry - the bigotry of those who think like them.

And the money is not the real cost - that will be borne by innocent, vulnerable children. The Catholic Adoption Agencies had a superb record in successful placement of the most challenging and vulnerable children.

18 June 2009 at 17:42  
Blogger McKenzie said...

If this is bigotry then I am in. Give me some more please. Start a campaign and I will be in it raising what is Caesars in order to ram it up his arse. It's time someone did something.

18 June 2009 at 17:48  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

...other adoption agencies...threw themselves on the smouldering faggots...

I dare say Julian Clary and Stephen Fry would have been a bit winded by the experience, but, much better than burning to death, as Your Grace will testify.

18 June 2009 at 18:34  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your Grace,
Although I am gay, and I am quite worried that the general opinion is that a child would be in such a vulnerable position having 2 dads,
(oh yes, we the work of hell, we the pederast and we the unnatural creation of some sort of daemon) I recognise the gravity of what is happening and I do stay by your side on this one.
It is appalling to see how this government obsessed by public opinion and PC, acts against any reasonable level of moral integrity.
Regarding the general tone I identify in the comments written above, I am almost as saddened by the action of the government as I am by the rapidity with which people make comments on the "vulnerability" and the "unstable up-bringing" of a child by two fathers.
I will not get into this debate right now because I am really tired of explaining the same thing over and over again.
But go on everybody, feel free to express your opinion in any way you wish but keep in mind, that even I, a gay Christian would not stand by the side of the horrendous actions of the current government.

18 June 2009 at 19:12  
Blogger ultramontane grumpy old catholic said...

It's difficult to know what the best strategy is, Your Grace. How much money do people want to give to the lawyers?

When all this first came out in 2007, I kind of hoped that the Tories would be more sympathetic. But David Cameron was not helpful. All he could do was to propose a long running in period, which given the gulf between the two points of view is not a solution. So if the Tories get back into power, dont hold your breath wating for a repeal of this legislation.

At that time 2007, Carla Powell wrote an article in the spectator 'Beware the Taleban of Tolerance'. Your communicants can read it on this link

or Google the title.

She paints a very bleak picture of how this might develop in the future. She describes what's already happened in Sweden with people at the back of a Church tape recording sermons and passing the tapes to the police.

That said I would gladly contribute to whatever fund your Grace would set up. But it's only a palliative.

Christians do need to wake up and use their vote wisely at the coming election. It would be interesting (if it could be done) to prepare a questionnaire to candidates on this and other issues, and the results collated (if they refuse or dont reply then this to be made clear as well). The results could be published on the web, and people could make up their mind how to vote.

18 June 2009 at 19:30  
Anonymous Puritan Preacher said...

Perhaps Gordon Brown would care to filter this case through his Presbyterian Conscience.

I'm sure we would find his conclusions revealing.

18 June 2009 at 19:57  
Anonymous Adrian P said...

I'd like to propose an idea, many bloggers out there have costs incurred as a result of their activities, if only the cost of running a website.

It's also true that times are rather hard at the moment.
Might I suggest that bloggers start putting online a Printable standing order form requesting a nominal sum of £1 Pound per month or Per annum, at readers discretion.

Such a small amount would be unlikely to be missed and it would mean online readers would then be able to go around and actually support several of their favourite blogs without breaking the bank.

The only drawback I can see is that if someone has a Zero Balance, the bank is likely try paying the £1 per month and only then finding out that there are no funds in the account
( the Bank has no idea how much someone has in their acount until that time we are led to believe )
When they are then hot with a £30 Bill, but if there were a way around this problem then a system like this might allow many online readers to contribute and ensure the continued success of their favourtite blogs.

or indeed help raise funding for legal actions such as this one.

18 June 2009 at 20:21  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I remember that a motion to allow gays to adopt children was debated at my student union council. i admit this was about 12 years ago, but the motion got thrown out as not even labour supporters could vote for it.

I think that this change to the law over the past decade has been put upon the majority of people by the minority PC brigade .

When I read things like this, I really have no time for either Blair nor Brown , who apparently are Christians. What Christian agrees to 1) Buggery and 2)attempts to destroy the basic family unit of man, women and children ?

So much for the moral compass .....

18 June 2009 at 21:17  
Blogger David said...

I do not understand. I am heartened that there are still good people out there that feel the actions of this government is obscene. It makes me feel that I am not alone. I bow to the superior intellect of many erudite posters here. I am a simple layman brought up as a traditional Catholic, now sadly lapsed (but not yet prolapsed) but it is plain to me.

I cannot contribute to deep intellectual discussion but one thing seems apparent to me. Communism, having failed in its objectives in the early 20th Century, devised a 'quiet cultural revolution' to achieve their goal, and they have achieved it. I have read contributions from a number of posters where the Frankfurt School of Marxism has been mentioned, not only on this blog but on a number of others. Indeed, it may have been on this blog that the link to the Catholic Insight web page was first followed through:

The article is a fascinating insight and should, as my old English Teacher used to say, be read and ‘inwardly digested’. You will see listed on that page the recommendations of that 'school' which are plainly visible in society today. Point number 7 and 11 on that list seem particularly pertinent to this discussion.

Sadly, many years of this quiet revolution have gained foothold in the field of education and children and students are conditioned to accept the mantra of cultural marxism where ever it breaks surface. In many instance it is blatant; NuLabour and the BBC to name two obvious examples. Mr Camerons party doesn't seem resistant to it either, more's the pity.

I do hope that our once glorious nation is not yet ‘God forsaken’

19 June 2009 at 00:38  
Blogger Neil said...

Your Grace,

What I find to be just as abhorrent as the enforcing of one group's personal morals on another's is that those secularists amongst us are missing the point. Charities providing children with adoptive parents, when done with the correct due diligence, are doing society as a whole a great service no matter what walk of life they are from. By reveling in this kind of law, the secularist is instead placing their own interests ahead of that which is most important - the child themselves.
With this I say let every organisation help the tragedy of parentless children - be they Christian, Jewish, Muslim or rabid Secularist - and let us praise the Lord for all their efforts, and not descend in to the petty arguments that have prevented Catholic Care doing what is ultimately God's work.

19 June 2009 at 00:50  
Blogger ZZMike said...

We here in the US had the same problem. A year or so ago, the Commonwealth of Massachussetts (a leading bastion of progressivism - something that would give their Puritan ancestors the wild fits) decreed that adoptions agencies may make no distinction regarding applicants' status or orientation.

That was something the Catholic adoption agency could not embrace. They got out of the business altogether.

"This was never about what might be best for the child, ..."

It never is, even though (over here at least), the rallying-cry for any addlepated decree is "for the Children!!".

One wonders whether there is any basis (outside of murderous or culinary intent) to deny adoption to a couple. I use "couple" in the mathematical sense of "2" - at least until the next wave of marriage redefinition takes place.

Mr Brown: Gnostic may be referring to Dante's division of the levels of Hell.

Anonymous (19:12): "... the rapidity with which people make comments on the "vulnerability" and the "unstable up-bringing" of a child by two fathers."

How about a girl brought up by two "fathers" or a boy by two "mothers"? (This is also a consideration in single-parent families.)

Ultramontaine: "The Taleban of Tolerance" - this is simply a case of "tolerance for me, not for thee".

19 June 2009 at 00:54  
Anonymous sydneysider said...

What is missing in our society is the notion of selflessness.Ego and gratification are the causes of most of our problems.If one had empathy for others one wouldn't consider adoption if one were a gay couple.Gays will always be discriminated against just as anyone is who is not part of the herd and legislation offers only limited protection.A child of such a union would be open to ridicule. Why can't people accept that not everything on the life menu is available and make the best of it. Not having children is not a death sentence.

If the Catholic Church can't get the constitution changed then they
will have to close the adoption agency or continue to operate as is until the State shuts them down. As everyone knows the Church is inflexible on matters of homosexuality abortion etc.That's why we have Anglicanism (the soft option)

19 June 2009 at 00:59  
Anonymous John Knox said...

Well spoken Cranmer,

This needs to be pursued to the highest court.

Even the EU recognizes the right of parents to educate their children in the way they prefer, both schooling and religion.

It is in the post-comonlaw situation also a fundamental right for a religion to reject certain lifestyles as incompatible.

From which logically flows that people who entrust children to an orthodox Christian care organisation do so because they require and expect foster parents to reflect their religious values and provide an orthodox Christian living environment. Practising homosexuals are inherantly unable to do so.

It is unlikely that the House of Lords or the Queen will be seen to take responsibility for this outrageous situation that forces Christian organisation to give up their identity or dismantle.

This is why new Labour plays a patch up public relations game with Rome, while it kills of Christian organisations.

Let the higher courts be given the opportunity to reverse this legislation that violates all that Britain once used to stand for. Or let their true face be known and let them for once take responsibility for it.

19 June 2009 at 01:02  
Anonymous Disgoosted said...

Actually, it's worse than "disgoostin'. " The problem is what will happen to the children - as someone was honest enough to suggest earlier. Kudos, to that man.

Me: I'm never going into a nursing home, either - that's another sort of place where they get away with forcing themselves on the weak and helpless; and the effects can be physical, or psychological, or both. Now, of course, they're positively encouraged to get away with it. God help us (and that's a prayer).

19 June 2009 at 06:08  
Blogger OurSally said...

Tell us the facts: How many gay couples have actually applied to adopt children? Most adoptions are by close relations or step-parents anyway - does someone out there have the statistics? - and I would not count these.

The only criteria for adoption (of unrelated, unknown children) should be a sober and decent lifestyle and love of small humans. Is that not enough? There are plenty of children being brought up badly by monsters who just happen to be their parents, whether hetero or not; no-one seems to care about them.

What is the real objection? I suppose the assumption is that gays are peodophile, can that be? Gays stray from the path sometimes and children are born, would the adoption agency like to use the same logic to remove these children from their parents?

(They could put them in religious orphanages, the staff are well known for their deep love of children.)

19 June 2009 at 08:56  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your Grace,

Thank you - "Thou shalt hononour thy mother and father .... " and children learn by parental example first and foremost.

I was raised in England andour education commenced with a Christian service - school assembly and Grace was recited before lunch. This was the case with all State schools and the same for our 3 (now adult) children.

Is there a religious faction which supports homosexuality or it's practice in the environ of innocent children?

19 June 2009 at 09:25  
Blogger Gnostic said...

So what you're saying, OurSally is that all the people working in relgious institutions are paedophiles? Nice.

You miss the point of the original post. Catholic adoption agencies are being forced to place children with gay adoptive couples against the teachings of their religion. Gay rights trump religious obligation. This is called positive discrimination. It is also called politically correct Nazism. You can't even preach that homosexuality is a sin without the thought police getting their psychological waterboarding equipment out.

Only an idiot would believe that all gays are paedophiles any more than all paedophiles are gay which they obviously are not. So please do not tar people with your sweeping generalisations.

Religious adoption agencies should be exempt from this stupid "equality" law because it flies in the face of their belief. There are enough secular agencies around to satisfy the parental needs of gay couples. I'd like to see some idiot try and foist this on a Muslim adoption agency. It would never happen of course.

It seems that some groups and some religions are more equal than others. And that's the crux of the whole matter. The message from this government is clear, if you are Christian then f*** off.

I'm not a practising Christian but I'm willing to stand up for those who are because they have a right to practice their beliefs in a society founded on Christian laws and principles.

If people want to take issue with that then sue me...

19 June 2009 at 09:26  
Blogger Gnostic said...

PS OurSally, you seem to believe that family members are automatically granted preference when it comes to adoption rights. Perhaps you should read this:

19 June 2009 at 09:39  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


The word 'agency' - a government affiliated 'box ticking' regime is always alarming, more so where innocent children are concerned.

The Jersey Care Home investigation was a prime example of 'those in high places' sweeping testimonies of horrendous child abuse under the carpet. Bad for business and profit - as opposed to welfare focussed, highly trained Social Services.

19 June 2009 at 09:39  
Blogger Andromeda said...

If this country legislated only according to Koranic principles, this sort of thing would not happen. For the Koran accomplishes the fine balancing act of tolerating homosexuals while withholding from them an equal status with heterosexuals.

While declaring homosexual ACTS to be punishable, it imposes a high burden of proof, ie that 4 witnesses are required for any homosexual act to secure a conviction.

It is much more useful to have this enshrined in law than to stone them to death as the Old Testament enjoins, or say in the New Testament that they are prevented from entering the Kingdom of God.

19 June 2009 at 09:50  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you're bemused by the various adoption agencies and charities "rolling over and surrendering" (I paraphrase), remember that most of them are fake charities whose funding comes largely or wholly from the State; they are arms of government in all but name, they are bound to follow the government line in everything.

Catholic Care is presumably an exception, which is why they felt able to protest, and why they have now been slapped down.

I wouldn't bother pursuing this to Higher Courts, the law is clear - if malicious - and further appeals will simply waste more money.

I am sure with a little inventiveness they could find ways to implement their policy on the q.t.

But perhaps not, now that they have drawn the attention of the righteous so publicly.

19 June 2009 at 10:01  
Blogger Andromeda said...

Yes, Anonymous of 19 June 2009 10:01, the law is clear on the criminalisation of Catholic Adoption Agencies who refuse to serve homosexual couples.

This abhorrent and extremist PC law is also against the principles of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, as well as the principles of morality, commonsense and justice.

Perhaps it could be stipulated that future governments only pass laws that abide with the principles of Justice, Reason and Truth.

19 June 2009 at 10:12  
Blogger Gnostic said...

Yes, we've seen where Muslim tolerance to homosexuality leads.

We've all seen the placards being waved around on British street too.

19 June 2009 at 10:13  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...

How can jellyfish-backboned people be the majority of the politcians, judges, most churches, foundations; in short be the leaders of the land?

What happened to true knights who fought for virtue, honour, justice?

We used to have wooden ships and men of steel; now we have steel ships and men of wood...full of woodworms!

How come the minority of good, honourable, virtuous men & women do not succeed to blow these worthless, godless, rebellious bunch right out of the water, and make them their slaves, which is their only righful place! They are shit, they should eat shit, move, breath,work shit! Unless they repent!

This is the CURSE, the weakness and the evil of a so called democracy! By nature a democracy has a majority of street-people, lower class people, uneducated people (like most immigrants...), immoral people, rebellious people (compare the nature of the weeds and the good seed, als in the Parable of Jesus Christ!), so we clearly see now that the street reigns! Preacher says in Ecclesiastes 10:5-7: "There is an evil which I have seen under the sun, as an error which proceedeth from the ruler:
Folly is set in great dignity, and the rich sit in low place. I have seen servants upon horses, and princes walking as servants upon the earth.I have seen servants upon horses, and princes walking as servants upon the earth. "

Well can it be said of our society: " How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers. Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water: Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them. Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies! "

AMEN, LORD! MARANTHA! Come, Lord Jesus come!

19 June 2009 at 10:24  
Blogger Gnostic said...

May I point out that without some of these uneducated immigrants the NHS would fall apart?

More sweeping generalisations...

19 June 2009 at 10:33  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...

@Gnostic: Who says we should tolerate homosexuality?

It is intolerable to God, how can we tolerate it? This only brings the judgment and wrath of God upon our land!

Probably the fact that our rulers, judges, media etc. are streetgangs, who have let idolatry increase in the land by letting muslims, hindu's etc. in the land and thrive, is a judgment!

19 June 2009 at 10:36  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...

For more on that matter: Read and sign my Petition against the Declaration of War by the Netherlands Minister of homosexual 'emancipation' Go to: Petition

19 June 2009 at 10:44  
Anonymous sydneysider said...

Gnostic is right the Catholic adoption agencies are being discriminated against .Andromeda seems to be opposed to religious discrimination and a proponent of justice so it would be good if she could rally some Islamic support for the Catholics as well (a protest march, perhaps.)

19 June 2009 at 10:57  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...

By the way: CURSED with eternal damnation are the professional PARASITES - lawyers and such - that run up such enormous costs to charities like this one, only for doin g some administrative exercises!

Why should they be payed, when they did such a bad job? They LOST!

How come we, society, have come to accept the CRIMES these PARASITES, these lawyers (and mind you doctors are also parasites; they live on the rotteness of mankind, as are so many other professions nowadays who do not produce anything, but profit enormously from the corruption of the land!) commit in their USURY-charges?

How about not paying doctors (the 3rd leading cause of deaths in the USA) for their failures? And lawyers for loosing their cases? (the ..nd cause of deaths in the land...are there statistics on that? Hard to measure...) May be then they start taking their jobs more seriously and not demand respect and treatment like gods, when they are often scum!?!

We should give them a beating they should remember for many years to come!

Mind you: It will get to that! When things go on like this: It will get to that! People's anger is building up!

19 June 2009 at 11:02  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...

How dare the State impose it's TYRANNICAL laws - made by the streetgang that has the majority in the land - upon the church?

The church that abides by laws that violate the Laws and will of God, ceases to be His Church!

So, the TYRANNICAL government might as well come out and admit that they want to abolish the Church and Christianity!

But this would go against the professional PARASITES that profit greatly from evil laws, and the LEGAL CIRCUS that has to keep up the appearance of justice in the land. So they will have two faces!

The only way to deal with this is to REVOLT!

19 June 2009 at 11:32  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

dutchlionfrans1953 said... It is intolerable to God, how can we tolerate it? This only brings the judgment and wrath of God upon our land!

Oh please wake up! WHO are YOU to say what is intolerable to God or not. I understand you should not be forced to tolerate anything (although it would help)but to say you actually understand what God tolerates because of some book, written BY MAN nonetheless some 2000 years ago, and then claim homosexuality "brings the wrath of God to our land" it is as appalling as the laws and decisions the current government passes.
As a completely rhetorical question : Would it be SO HARD to understand that MY FATHER in Heaven accepts me the way I am, that HE understands I am as human as you are? I think he does.
The "wrath" will be brought to this land as long they are people like you that will continuously claim to know what God believes.

19 June 2009 at 11:44  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...

Just another example of the way the legal circus operates and violates all principles of true Justice! And how lawmakers make more and more evil laws, that generate more and more legal cases How utterly evil is the present-day STATE! Go to: Poor mother fined $80.000/song for 'illegal downloading.' A total of $1,92 milion.

How the music industry is morally and in every other way corrupt, by going after the poor! How God opposes their utter arrogance!

God says it very clearly: Laws are for the godless! But nowadays our evil streetgang that rules the land think they have the right to abuse their power to force all society in their ungodly P-C State-religion by law! They will find out where this will all lead.

No society can stand this for long. Sovyet-Russia held out for 70 years. How long will this criminal MARXIST P-C system?

Oh, how Jesus Christ would curse them all and the whole system! And they ÁRE CURSED! There will come a day when they will be judged and can regret their evil deeds for all eternity if a very very hot place! They can find out about Hell by listening to testimonies of people who were there, and surviced to tell. Go to TESTIMONIES OF PEOPLE WHO WERE IN HELL AND/OR HEAVEN!

19 June 2009 at 12:03  
Blogger Little Black Sambo said...

Unlike all the nonsense on the Holy Smoke blog, this story is a good argument for becoming a Roman Catholic. Would any Church of England charity resist like this?

19 June 2009 at 12:09  
Blogger ENGLISHMAN said...

This does not just affect our Church,it is a full scale assault upon our society,so let us bannish the words political correctness and call it what it is Cultural Marxism,if the people of this country were asked if they wished to become communists,we can all imagine what the reply would be,and yet here we are in a state more repressive and just as totalitarian as anything stalin could dream up,where the mob anger is inflicted upon those who are viewed as "politically unreliable"wether it be the catholics for trying to maintain thier religious teachings,or the BNP for voicing the sentiments of the majority of the English people.If placing small children with queer couples is acceptable,why are those people who wish to work in our schools so heavily vetted because they have access to very many children.Also how can one be Christian and queer?

19 June 2009 at 12:16  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said... brave you are remain anonymous!

God is and remains in His own image! Thank God: He changes not! He surely will not adapt to the image and theology of rebellious people who want Him to accept all kinds of evil...under the disguise of - the humanistic false idea of- 'love'

God is LOVE! He cares about us! That is why He has given us His law. So that by abiding by His Law (not as a tyrant but as there are natural laws, so there are spiritual laws) we would LIVE! There is no God like He! He has communicated His will to us!

How would God, Being Spirit communicate in a material world other then by those who are part of the material world, He inspired, more so, breathed His Word through!

When I was young, my mother would sometimes send my youngest brother out to get me. Now I could choose from two options: Either I accepted that my mother indeed did sent him, and if he had pulled my leg, I would feel foolish (and he would be at my mercy). Or I could refuse the command, thinking my brother was pulling my leg again. But if my brother had told the truth, I would face grave consequences! My mother would give me a big beating! (Those were the days that chastisement was still considered good - to the benefit of society. I prefer this much over todays brats being raised that burden society... but... ah... of course... they provide the LEGAL PARASITES with more opposrtunity for usury charged administrative exercises.. ).

So you can so arrogantly refuse to hear and abide by God's Word, saying it was written by men (whom He used to rekate His Word into a material world), as if that would make it not His Word, but in the end: God remains God, and He will judge you for it.

You are playing with fire!

Like I said: Hell is a very real place! HELL IS SO REAL!

19 June 2009 at 12:20  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace,

Outstanding post!

It breaks my heart to say this. It is over for the Christian in the public square. A future Conservative government would have to break from the EU to even contemplate repealing anti-Christian domestic legislation (the Equality Bill 2009 lists at least six EU Directives – most of which have already been implemented).

The future for Christians in this country is behind the doors of their churches and homes – not in the public square. The ‘right’ to preach on all topics that the Bible touches upon in the open-air is alrready circumscribed – it will not be long before it is circumscribed in the pulpit (I suggest it is already happening through self-censorship).

The senior leadership of the Church of England has already capitulated to the secular agenda; for example it pro-EU positiion (late 1970s); its pro-abortion stance in prepration for the passing of the 1967 Abortion Act (Bishop of Rochester); its accpetance of Darwinism (current Director of Mission) and the Archbishop of Canterbury’s rejection of the historic doctrine of sin.

I know of many Christians in the pubic-sector who are, privately, afraid of losing their jobs and hence their homes.

We have no national leader of gravitas and great stature who can give us a vision so that we may not perish.

There needs to be a national convention held to decide where as God’s people we go from here, in God’s name.

19 June 2009 at 12:27  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...


Who will end in the Lake that burn with Fire and Brimstone?

Who are the first listed in Revelation (Apocalyps) 21:8?

It's "The Fearful" That is: Most who call themselves Christian now, including clergy, ministers, priests! And most of today's politicians, judges, media, bankers, managers, and others who lick each others boots & butts for profit!

Let me quote that Scripture for you: "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Jesus Christ was also very plain: " Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" Matthew 16:24-26)

19 June 2009 at 12:56  
Blogger D. Singh said...


The threshold at which the British Christian, I suggest, feels pain and experiences fear is far lower than that of, say, the African Christian.

19 June 2009 at 13:41  
Blogger Roger Pearse said...

They need to get this to the European Courts, where they will be mindful of all those continental Catholics, all with VOTES.

The spinelessness of much "official christianity", even when it isn't openly heretical, makes you wonder if they really believe in any of what they preach.

The poll tax was defeated by civil disobedience. The quakers defeated the government of Charles II, by wearing them until they left them alone.

Laws like these are made, in bishop Burnet's phrase, "for terror, not enforcement." Resist.

Amusing to see the National Secular Society jeering, tho.

19 June 2009 at 13:45  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...

So the Western (British & the rest) Christian should learn from them, but also should we learn from those who went befor us.

We should realise that being imprisoned, crucified, stoned, beheaded, thrown to the wild animals etc. etc. for doing what is right, is what was done to all true prophets of God, and to all apostles, as well as to our innocent Lord Jesus Christ, Creator os all things! So, that is no shame at all! It is shameful nót to have this be done to us, for this means we belong to the world, and not to Christ!

For He warned us: " If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me." And of the religious bunch who prostitute itself with the world (-system), he warned: These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me. But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them." (John 15 & 16)

Look what the Dutch Reformed (who had prior to this been persecuted by the Roman Catholic church- the persecuted now became the prosecutors!) did to the Anabaptists! The book: MARTYRS MIRROR of the DEFENSELESS CHRISTIANS shows this amply!

Now the State religion is godless Marxist Polical-Correctism! And they do the same, or even worse.

For the Reformed would not force the children of the Anabaptists to learn that homosexuality is normal, as our Minister of Education, Science and Culture, who is als in charge of homo-'emancipation,' commanded his education-inspectors to make sure all Dutch schoolchildren would be taught in school.

The full title of this over 1100 pages book is: "he Bloody Theater or Martyrs Mirror of the Defenseless Christians who baptized only upon confession of faith, and who suffered and died for the testimony of Jesus, their Saviour, from the time of Christ to the year A.D. 1660.

19 June 2009 at 14:00  
Anonymous sydneysider said...

@ D Singh
Where do we go from here?

The Pilgrim Fathers
probably had the same dilemma.Authentic British Christians might have to consider leaving as their forefathers did. Where? Well Australia comprises 64% Christian and only 1% Moslem.

For reasons that are not pc to mention, Australia is not a favoured destination by Moslems.It's also vast and the last frontier and oops I almost forgot hosts the biggest gay mardi gras in the world. Just a thought.

19 June 2009 at 14:33  
Blogger D. Singh said...


If it becomes necessary, I prefer the path selected by Oliver Cromwell and General George Washington.

19 June 2009 at 15:23  
Anonymous Got the Guts to wear God said...


The God you talk the ultimate control freak. How can you love if it doesn't come from the heart? The God you talk of comes from fear.

How can you fear God? If nothing else, God should take fear away. God should be your best friend. I think you are buying into the negative vibration. God includes not excludes. I don't care what any old book says...remember it was written with a 2000 year level of consciousness. I'm hoping we've evolved a bit, just a bit. I'm not asking for miracles. Look into your heart. Do you really believe any living creature should suffer in any way? I'm sure that God doesn't.

19 June 2009 at 17:16  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

@Got the Guts to wear God-thank you!

And just as a note I remain anonymous because it is the only option I have to be able to post on this blog.

@ dutchlionfrans1953

I'm not playing with any fire, I stand by the side of my Father,I would do it even if I was not gay.
I came to peace with Him after a long time.
I wish you the best and I hope you will find peace too in your arrogant close minded comments.

19 June 2009 at 17:27  
Blogger ZZMike said...

"Like I said: Hell is a very real place! HELL IS SO REAL! "

One can only assume that Dutch Lion has been there.

19 June 2009 at 17:48  
Anonymous len said...

God has clearly defined sin in his word, the Bible.
If you want to see what Gods judgement is on sin is you have to look no further than the cross of Jesus Christ.
God is perfect love, but God is also perfect justice.
The only way God can look at man without demanding justice( we have all sinned) is through the atonement of Jesus Christ at Calvary.
Some who cannot come to terms with the true nature of God have created a God of their own choosing.
Others who deny the reality of God have written their own moral code to line up with their fallen natures.
Jesus Christ said" You must be born again"
If you call yourself christian but are trying to serve God from a fallen nature you are deluding yourself.
For all of you who say the Bible was written years ago and is irrelevant I would say to you that the Bible is Gods word and it is truth, truth doesn`t change. The Bible will still be relevant 2,000 yrs from now.

19 June 2009 at 19:37  
Anonymous Got the Guts to wear God said...

Len. I respect your opinion.

Myself, I am grateful that I don’t live in fear. I love God and God loves me. I am secure in my personal relationship with God.

20 June 2009 at 01:07  
Blogger Gnostic said...

Dutchlion etc.

Why should you tolerate homosexuality? Who cares?

What people do behind closed doors is between them and their consciences. Who am I to say what they can and cannot do if they are not hurting anyone?

However, when the militant gays (think Stonewall) politicise their sexuality and then use political correctness and a morally corrupt government to ram it down our throats then that's the point I become intolerant.

I have nothing against gay people (the majority) who quietly get on with their lives and prosper without making an appalling fuss over "special rights". These so called PC anti-hate laws create disaffected bigots and anger which makes the lives of gays more precarious, not secure. In fact the gays I know (and consider to be friends) and have worked with are the nicest of people and are appalled at what a minority are doing in their name.

Saying that I was unfortunate enough to live, temporarily in between house moves, next door to a group of Basil Newby's "Funny Girls" (female impersonators) who were a real pain in the proverbial. There's nothing funny about being blasted out of bed at 3am of a Sunday morning to music from South Pacific accompanied by drunken, falsetto caterwauling...

20 June 2009 at 15:02  
Blogger Gnostic said...

PS I have to say that, noisy private parties aside, Funny Girls is probably the best cabaret show in Blackpool.

20 June 2009 at 15:11  

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