Saturday, March 20, 2010

'Pastoral Letter of the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI to the Catholics of Ireland'

The full text of this document may be found HERE.

It is curious that the Pope has a swipe at secularisation and Vatican II as contributory factors for priests adopting ‘ways of thinking…without sufficient reference to the Gospel’, as though all ages have not been antithetical or downright hostile to the Christian message. If the Hellenic world did not offer greater temptation to pederasty (to give it its proper name), it is difficult to blame the ‘liberal’ reforms of the 1960s and encroaching secularisation for the present manifestation of the phenomenon.

The Pope appears to suggest that child rape and torture 'canonically irregular situations' are a natural consequence of the culture war between tradition and modernity, between the Rock and relativism, which have only been manifest since the golden era of Vatican I was supplanted by the postmodern vagaries of trendy liberalism.

Were there no priestly pederasts prior to 21st November 1965?

The Pope talks of shame and remorse, doubtless with great sincerity, but it is a hollow apology which leaves the innocent victims still yearning for justice. There is passion and conviction in his words, but no action beyond the intention to dispatch a sort of curial Ofsted inspection team to visit unspecified dioceses.

And with a worldwide tsunami of allegations of child rape and torture, it was unfortunate that the Pope did not catholicise the problem. When he referred to the ‘inadequate response… on the part of the ecclesiastical authorities in your country’, he placed the blame squarely with the priests and bishops of Ireland: there are no deficiencies in the Vatican: in this instance, not so much as a solitary back-road leads to Rome. It is the Irish bishops and they alone who were obsessed with ‘a misplaced concern for the reputation of the Church and the avoidance of scandal’.

Addressing his ‘brother bishops’, he says unequivocally that some of them ‘failed, at times grievously, to apply the long-established norms of canon law to the crime of child abuse’. He talks of their ‘serious mistakes’, ‘grave errors of judgement’ and ‘failures of leadership’. All this, he says, ‘has seriously undermined (their) credibility and effectiveness’.

How can there be holiness, purification, reconciliation and ‘ecclesial and individual renewal’ while Cardinal Brady remains in charge? What would the Chief Exec of any other institution do to a fellow board member who had made ‘serious mistakes’, ‘grave errors’ and manifested such ‘failures of leadership’ that his credibility and effectiveness were ‘seriously undermined’?

How can Cardinal Brady not posses the humility to see that his mere presence is now hindering the mission of his church?

And how can the Pope demand that the bishops of Ireland cooperate fully with the civil authorities there when he does not despatch Cardinal Law back to Boston to face his long-delayed Missa Solemnis? Why are the bishops of Ireland thrown to the secular authorities while the erstwhile bishop of Boston continues to sing his Angelus three times a day like an innocent songbird in a gilded cage?


Anonymous len said...

Having told his Irish brethren to fall on their swords the pope washes his hands and distances himself.
Situation solved,yes?

20 March 2010 at 13:29  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

Were there no priestly pederasts prior to 21st November 1965?

My guess is that the clergy started taking an interest in children when celibacy became compulsory in the 12th century. All too often, however, those who won the struggle to remain celibate released their frustrations in the form of violence against children.

Either way, it was the most vulnerable who paid the highest price for priestly celibacy.

20 March 2010 at 13:57  
Blogger Ben Stevenson said...

Johnny Rottenborough,

John Calvin, in the 16thy century, certainly thought compulsory celibacy led to sexual immorality.

"How many monsters of crimes are produced every day in Popery by that compulsory celibacy of nuns! What barriers does it not deliberately break through!...
...Nor do I speak of nuns only, but priests and monks are also compelled by them to observe perpetual celibacy. Yet disgraceful lusts rage amongst them, so that hardly one in ten lives chastely; and in monasteries, the least of the evils is ordinary fornication...." -- Commentary on 1 Timothy 5

Perhaps it still does.

"But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.... But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion." -- 1 Corinthians 7:2,8

20 March 2010 at 14:04  
Blogger Theresa said...

Addressing his ‘brother bishops’, he says unequivocally that some of them ‘failed, at times grievously, to apply the long-established norms of canon law to the crime of child abuse’.

Ah your grace, you clicked at last..

I agree that Cardinal Brady should go. I have a feeling that last week's sermon was a prelude to that. We'll see..

20 March 2010 at 15:24  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Not so simple.. my guess is that the irish Bishops or any higher ups in the Catholic church who have been involved in this (whether directly or just by hiding it), they know too much. If the pope takes them down, they will take him down with them. His hands are not clean. If they were, then he could clean his church.

20 March 2010 at 15:40  
Anonymous len said...

Due to the tidal wave of allegations about the abuse suffered by the victims of wordwide priestly abuse I suppose the pope had no other discourse than to acknowledge it.
I wonder how many cases will be referred to the courts so the victims can have the crimes acknowledged and claim any compensation due?

20 March 2010 at 15:40  
Anonymous Voyager said...

Prior to 1965 ? I suppose this from 1961 might suggest pre-1965 there were concerns......

Orders 1961


Sacred Congregation for Religious
February 2, 1961

20 March 2010 at 16:00  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests

It’s not like it’s even today's news.

20 March 2010 at 16:13  
Anonymous Simon said...

Could this apology have been any more mealy-mouthed? What a disgusting excuse for an individual this Pope really is.

Let's take a trip around the 'Seven Deadly Sins', shall we:

Lust - Well, I defy anyone to deny lust hasn't been a prime motivator in many of the heinous crimes against the world's youth by the pious.

Greed - Well, they certainly filled the church's coffers with the hard work of kids they so badly treated - The Magdalene Sisters leap to mind.

Gluttony - Repeated gorging on the innocent bodies of children? Yes, seems about right.

Sloth - This (cough) apology from the Pope is what, decades too late? One may easily comment on the tardiness of the investigating authorities within the church too.

Wrath - Just how consumed with rage does one have to be to exact daily sexual, emotional and physical tortures on those without power or voice to seek help?

Envy - Back to that insatiable desire again. Depriving children of their bodily sovereignty, so that the supposedly celibate may possess it.

Pride (the deadliest of all) - Covering up abuse to protect the alleged good name of the church, need one say more?

A half-baked apology from a man up to his ears in the stench of corruption and cover-up; interesting this post attracts, what, a dozen comments - homosexuals want to adopt - a hundred comments - with some dissenters tossing around BS statistics about Paedophiles! Some people's morality is screwed up, man.

20 March 2010 at 16:56  
Anonymous Oswin said...

I do not believe that 'celibacy' leads to abuse. Rather, that any organisation that purports to look after,have responsibility for, or offers accomodation to vulnerable people/children, is likely to attract perverts. I suspect that not many perverts are attracted to jobs that are solitary in nature?

20 March 2010 at 18:11  
Anonymous not a machine said...

An appology is perhaps a start to the roman catholic church coming to terms with this .Of course being the church it is the most sensative problem , which it appears to have handled in a way that the public do not comprehend anything much has changed .

It is also interesting to note that the forces of evil are working most publically at the moment of most trepidation for the formation of the EU .

Paedophillia has of course been found in other areas of life and however it holds it grip in certain people has thus far not been discovered .The chemical castration is perhaps the least of a peadophiles worries in some estates.

There is also the problem of false alligations by the victim which some teachers have had endure , however there has to be somthing called vetting , somthing which does not enlist peadophiles into the ranks of the clergy (or other groups) , nor the mis description of the christian appraoch to teaching , which respects adult authority and teaching of loving kindness in shaping the young minds .

The socialists no doubt are enjoying the public opinion of rats nest of evil with a facade , not that there liberal drugs policies has had its victims in another form of abuse .

Your grace may have watched the TV interview with lib dem humanist Lord Tavern and the Bishop of Leeds and Holderness , calling for the disestablishment of church and state , catorgising church as a religion of which they are many , and that it no longer should have such important representation in the Lords .Oh how I whish the Bishop had been a little quicker in his thoughts and should have responded "these humanists have too muc represenation in the lords and should be thrown out "

20 March 2010 at 19:35  
Blogger Frugal Dougal said...

I think the Pope's saying the same to the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland as he did to that in America when John Paul II put him in charge of clerical sex abuse cases - ie that Rome wasn't going to pull their chestnuts out of the fire. Watch out for dioceses going bankrupt in Ireland.

20 March 2010 at 19:49  
Anonymous Voyager said...

Paedophillia has of course been found in other areas of life

Politics - the Secular Religion - is renowned for its child molesters - viz Kincora Boys Home, Casa Pia Orphanage, and of course Thomas Hamilton in Dunblane - the latter cover by a 100 Year Rule on Secrecy


20 March 2010 at 20:58  
Anonymous Voyager said...

To develop the theme....

POlitical Coverup


North Wales

Casa Pia

20 March 2010 at 21:57  
Blogger JimSmiling333 said...

Several thoughts.

One. The recent focus on child abuse in the Roman Catholic Church had its origins in the economic and legal practicalities of class action lawsuits in the United States. Lawyers could make big money.

Two. Statistics on proven child abuse are like statistics on undiscovered murders. They provide insufficient reason to single out priests as the main offenders. Surveys of the general population may show that abuse by school teachers is a hundred times more likely.

Three. To the extent that there is a particular problem in the American Catholic Church, there seems to be good reason to point to a high percentage of homosexual priests as a bigger source than celibacy.

Four. Abuse within a family or church family or organizational family has historically and traditionally been handled privately, within the family. There was a desire to protect the reputation of the victim, and to repair the very important family bonds that were not broken. Without the intrusion of strangers.

Five. Intrusion of government into family and voluntary organization matters brings evils that may well be worse that those brought about by traditions of privacy. Proverbs 11:29 KJV He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: …

20 March 2010 at 22:19  
Blogger English Viking said...

Is that a Nazi salute?

I guess old habits die hard, just like allegations of pederasty.

20 March 2010 at 23:16  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think apologies to the victims of abuse are needed.

However, I think the Irish public themselves bear some responsibility for the way their society idolised their church and clergy. Parishioners weren't facing their responsibilities either, because they were not prepared to stick their necks out. And they had too much invested in the preeminence of Ireland as the Vatican's most loyal mission in Europe.

Ireland has changed a lot in the past 20 years, but the present generation should remember that their own parents cohort also placed the preservation of a veneer of reverence over the safey and welfare of abused and beaten children.

20 March 2010 at 23:48  
Anonymous the recusant said...

Harriet Harman was the Legal Officer of Liberty, then the National Council for Civil Liberties and Patricia Hewitt was the General Secretary when at its 1980 AGM it proposed the following motion
Motion 31: This AGM notes with disapproval the continued harassment of the organisations Paedophiles Information Exchange and Paedophiles Action for Liberation, who are working for the rights of adults who are sexually interested in children. We affirm that the existence of these and any other lawful pressure groups should be threatened by neither press nor police.
letters in the Irish Times

Less than 20 years ago most educated people had never heard of the word paedophilia. As far as I am aware, professional and statutory bodies did not know how to deal with the problem when it arose. The judiciary would give out suspended sentences with a warning to offenders. The social services and Garda would often ignore information given to them of allegations in their area. They were extremely hesitant to intrude into the privacy of a family where such abuse might be happening.
The psychological/psychiatric professions sent offenders on treatment programmes and would often certify such people back to their location, or ministry in the case of priests, not realising that a very high percentage reoffended.

Finally. the Department of Education more often than not ignored very abusive teachers in primary and secondary schools throughout the country for decades and teachers’ unions likewise did very little to remove such teachers.

It was only about 15 years ago, when survivors of abuse felt free to tell their stories and be heard in the process, that it finally dawned on society – and not just the church – how appalling a crime sexual abuse is and the great damage it has caused.

Of course one can say the leaders in the Catholic Church should have known better, but in the context of the time they unfortunately did not. They failed – as other professions likewise failed. If bishops have to resign, then, in justice, leaders of other professions and statutory bodies who made serious errors of judgment in this matter should likewise resign. – Yours, etc,

Ramleh Park,
Milltown, Dublin 6.

21 March 2010 at 00:00  
Anonymous len said...

' that it finally dawned on society - and not just the church - how appalling a crime sexual abuse is and the great damage it has caused.

This beggars belief,a priest abusing a minor has no idea that he is doing any wrong?.I am astonished,is this supposed to be some sort of defence?
And this priest is supposed to be a man of God?this is obscene!

21 March 2010 at 00:38  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

He talks of their ‘serious mistakes’, ‘grave errors of judgement’ and ‘failures of leadership’. All this, he says, ‘has seriously undermined (their) credibility and effectiveness’.

When does grave errors of judgement, and failures of leadership that seriously undermines a particular persons credibility and effectiveness, cease to be so, and become straight forward conspiracy to protect a very serious criminal from the full process of COMMON LAW?

What has Cannon Law got to do with seriously criminal and highly immoral child abuse?

I am sorry if the following offends even more, but it has to be said.

Please note I am not naming names, or indeed making any particular assertions about any particular Bishop, or member of the clergy. I do after all have a wife, an ex wife, and 5 children to consider.

Is it beyond credibility that the reason why this has, and been able to have been effectively covered-up in the manner by which it has. Is simply because this sort of thing is so incredibly and EXTREMELY widespread among all levels of the clergy that no one repeat no one dare cast the first accurate stone?

21 March 2010 at 00:48  
Anonymous sydneysider said...

I think Oswin makes a good point that perverts are drawn to the
professions which involve the vulnerable.

21 March 2010 at 03:41  
Blogger Ronald said...

What is the worth of an appology from a man with no morar standards.

He was in the Hitler Youth.

He was boss of the inquisition supressing free speach and free inquirery.

He then to get power and influence claimed that he was the choosen representative of an old tribal god placed above all other men (and infalible to boot)

Now he presides over an organisation that coverd up the buggery of little boys.

So no Benny an apology is not enough.

21 March 2010 at 07:44  
Anonymous Voyager said...

What is the worth of an appology from a man with no morar standards.

He was in the Hitler Youth.

It was not a voluntary organisation.

Angela Merkel joined the Communist Young Pioneers in the GDR.

As for Voluntary Organisations we can think of Peter Mandelson, Jack Straw, Charles Clarke as members of the Young Communists AFTER the invasion of Czechoslovakia and Khrushchev's Secret Speech in 1956.....and two of them have been Home Secretaries since !

21 March 2010 at 09:53  
Anonymous Voyager said...

that coverd up the buggery of little boys.

which is why the Anglican Church is playing with fire in its current dementia

21 March 2010 at 09:55  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

And where was your God when all this was going on? no let me answer - the same place he was during the Holocaust. Isn't it just typical of gods - never around when you need one.

21 March 2010 at 09:58  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


So god's representative on earth rather than taking the risky moral path of opposing the Nazis took the easy way out and meekly joined up?

As for Jack Straw and the rest of them I agree that it is shameful that we allow these old lefties to get into power but they do not claim to be gods infalable representative on earth.

I have no respect for the Anglican Church, I see them as half a spliter faction of the catholic church and half happy clappies without the enthusiasm. While they have not been pure either the abuse I think is far less common. And at least they are willing to consider women as equal or at least nearly equal.
I am having problems logging on if I am anonymous it is not by choice.

21 March 2010 at 10:20  
Anonymous Voyager said...


So god's representative on earth rather than taking the risky moral path of opposing the Nazis took the easy way out and meekly joined up?

What a silly point. I don't know what 15 year old boys do under dictatorial regimes. The penalty in Nazi Germany for conscientious objectors was death, often beheading.

Even Hanns Scholl, one of the founders of the White Rose Resistance at Ludwig-Maximilians University in Munich was a Member of the Hitler Youth.....didn't stop him from being executed in 1943 however.

Your comment is terribly smug. No doubt you will know at which point resistance in Britain should move to armed struggle, or will you wait until the dictatorship is complete before acquiescing ?

21 March 2010 at 11:25  
Anonymous Voyager said...

BTW Anonymous.....

It may be worth noting that Joseph Ratzinger had personal experience of the Nazi approach to "rejects." A cousin with Down's Syndrome, who in 1941 was 14 years old, just a few months younger than Ratzinger himself, was taken away by the Nazi authorities for "therapy." Not long afterwards, the family received word that he was dead, presumably one of the "undesirables" eliminated during that time.

quoted by John Allen

21 March 2010 at 11:31  
Blogger Ronald said...

We have an election soon so I do not expect a dictatorship any time soon.

And if Benny boy had personal experience of the Nazis eliminating his relatives all the more reason for him to oppose them.

15 year old boys who are an all powerful gods choosen representative on earth do what is right. Even if it is not the safe option. Surly god would have protected him?

That he became leader of the inquisition suggests that extreme authortarianism is not something that he would naturaly be opposed to.

21 March 2010 at 12:15  
Anonymous Voyager said...

15 year old boys who are an all powerful gods choosen representative

You are getting confused with the Dalai Lama

As for "an election soon" it is clear you are politically naive, for it will change nothing with respect to legislation such as Civil Contingencies Act 2004 and the use of secret trials, house arrests, and a panoply of new controls which are agreed by the major parties in meetings prior to elections and which are kept out of "elections" so as not to confuse naive and ignorant persons like yourself

21 March 2010 at 12:49  
Anonymous shane said...

Len, while child abuse has always been understood as wrong, I think his/her point relates to the full psychological impact on the child. I have heard people who studied psychology decades ago report being taught that sexual abuse did not have a severe emotional impact on the child. Freud, mystified by finding such a high incidence of abuse among his subjects, also taught that a child was simply projecting his guilt about sexual issues onto adults.

21 March 2010 at 13:17  
Anonymous shane said...

Your Grace, what the Pope is referring the tendency among Irish canonists to avoid 'penal' approaches in the post-conciliar era.

Even Austen Ivereigh, definitely on the liberal wing of the Church, concedes this:


21 March 2010 at 13:19  
Anonymous shane said...

This is a column in yesterday's Irish Independent on the culpability of psychiatrists by Patricia Casey, Professor of Psychiatry at University College Dublin, consultant psychiatrist at the Mater Misericordiae University Hospital, Dublin, and editor of the Psychiatric Bulletin:

21 March 2010 at 13:22  
Blogger Ronald said...

I agree that new labour is creating too many laws and using anti terror laws against the generaly law abiding citizens. They had the legislative and regulatory reform bill (not totally disimillar to Hitler's enabling bill) and the attempt to curb free speech in favour of the Muslims. I am not totally ignrant of the nature of the beast in government.

Brown is still not a Hitler or a Stalin.

We are not yet at the dictator stage and if we were I hope I would resist more than Benny boy did.
We are a long way of the terror the popes imposed on the people of the papal states when they had the power to do so.

The Dalai Lama were I thought choosen at a lot younger than 15.

Are you claiming that god did not know that benny boy would become pope when he grew up?

You have yet to answer the question why did he not resist the Nazi, or even say if you agree that opposing them would have been a good thing or not. And you have not given any reason why Benny boy should be considered to have moral authority. You have not given one example of him making a moral stand let alone one that involved any cost to himself.

21 March 2010 at 14:13  
Anonymous len said...

Shane(13:17) with all due respect you are talking rubbish.

21 March 2010 at 16:38  
Anonymous len said...

If Ratzinger had been a bit more like Dietrich Bonhoeffer I and possibly others might have a bit more respect for him.

21 March 2010 at 16:41  
Anonymous len said...

Of Course Bonhoeffer was a Lutherian so he probably wasn`t acceptable to the nazis!

21 March 2010 at 16:44  
Blogger Lakester91 said...

Has this blog really come to this? We see the Pope give an address to the people of Ireland, essentially apologising on behalf of the church, and yet you continue to condemn him. Is your hatred of the Church of Rome so great that you cannot see any possible redemption or renewal in her? Why do you judge your brothers and sisters in Christ even after they have repented? Perhaps Your Grace's forgiveness is harder to come by than that of God. You have become far too cynical in this blog and it upsets me. I once looked on this as a source of well thought out Christian opinion. Perhaps it always was just Conservative, Anglican vitriol. If it is Conservative then it is perfect; if it is Catholic then it is suspicious.

As evil as the actions of certain Catholics in Ireland is/was, we soon forget how small a minority group these people are. Rather than sorting out access to vulnerable job positions (where there is a lot of access to children), we have scape-goated the church. Why? Because it is easy. A far harder fact to accept is that we need an overhaul of children's homes and the way we deal with child abusers. We need a method that separates the wheat from the chaff without resorting to assuming that all males are pederasts, but that is too hard.

A note on the comments section here. Why has it descended into Ad Hominem attacks on the Pope's history? Should we claim that he, as a 15 year old, colluded with the Nazis because he was weak or supported their cause? or that all Popes should have a perfect past? Some of the greatest of saints have been the greatest of sinners. Do we reject the message of St. Paul because he once persecuted the church?

Sometimes we are too quick to call for the resignation of people who have made mistakes rather than dealing with the real problem. It is too easy to find a quick and easy solution by blaming a single scapegoat. Removing the guilty does not remove the sin. We need solutions not excess blame. Cardinal Brady, as someone who I believe has truly repented for his collusion, stands in the best position for ensuring that the Church in Ireland can be purged of these sins.

21 March 2010 at 17:23  
Anonymous TomTom said...

Are you claiming that god did not know that benny boy would become pope when he grew up?

Despite your flippant tone and your use of lower case for "God" I doubt even you believe in predestination for Popes. they are after all elected.

Why you believe The Pope to be God's representative on earth I do not know, you must be a lapsed Catholic or something similar.

In 1956 Westerners encouraged Hungarians to revolt, and then did, expecting Western support. They died and were tortured as The West stood by.

The Marsh Arabs were incited to revolt by The West after the First Gulf War and left to be massacred when the Western support evaporated under Saudi pressure.

Britain was asked by German generals to support a coup against Hitler in 1938 by taking a hard line over Czechoslovakia, but the British Government refused to support military interference in politics against elected government.

Encouraging others to resist dictators whilst keeping safe and sound yourself is rather like Jack Straw waxing lyrical about resisting Nazism when he was not even born for that fight; and his father found Conscientious Objector status preferable to being KIA like my family members

21 March 2010 at 17:37  
Anonymous jeremy hyatt said...

I'm genuinely curious about this: the Forward in Faith types who were playing footsie with Rome in a rather blatant way towards he end of last year seem to have gone all quiet of late. I thought that great things were supposed to be happening about now but the silence is deafening. Do the F i F big bugs suspect that they might have a job taking the punters with them at the moment? The F i F website just has the usual guff for their latest posting.

I don't see how the RC church cam ever it get over this. It has busted out of the English speaking world and gone viral all over the place.

21 March 2010 at 19:07  
Anonymous len said...

The allegations of sexual abuse by priests are not I believe limited to Ireland but are probably worldwide.
There is a chasm between Catholic and Protestant belief systems which can lead to quite heated debate( by both sides)
As you have quite rightly pointed out many of the people in the Bible were less than perfect( King David for example)
The debating thing about theology can get out of hand ( I have probably gone a bit down this route myself)but I have a passion for the truth especially about Christ who I believe doesn`t have the prominence He deserves in Catholicism.There is a lot about Catholicism I don`t accept,but I don`t hate Catholics only the system.
I think the arguments about theology are getting very negative so in future I am going ONLY to point to the positive not the negative.
God Bless.

21 March 2010 at 19:14  
Blogger Lakester91 said...

The past two posts (one of which was on another thread) of yours have improved your standing in my opinion. I am not the most articulate of people and cannot always convey my understanding of my faith. However my opinion of the difference between Catholic and Protestant is that there is very little. We both believe in the redemptive power of Christ's sacrifice, and that faith in him is the route to salvation/justification. I think that healthy discourse between opposing viewpoints (where ambiguous) is one of the greatest ways to advance our knowledge of God and of scripture. It is how we can induce modern applications of moral/God's law. The problem with our history is that such a violent split has led eventually to the kind of negative mudslinging I see sometimes on this blog (hence my despair at His Grace's series of posts in the past few days). The protestant reformation sparked the counter-reformation in my church, which helped clean up a lot of the rot. For that I am grateful. I only wish we could unite now in order to tackle the most dangerous of anti-religious forces.

In my opinion, as a practising Catholic, (i.e. on the inside) is that we do give Christ the prominence he deserves. Just because we acknowledge other important players in the story does not mean that we ignore the main character. He is still the sacrificial lamb, without whom we would all be lost. Contrary to common misconception, there is no belief in salvation through good works, only the belief that one of the logical conclusions of the faith that saves is good works (i.e. faith and good works are interlinked and part of the same thing). The latter without the former is in vain, as you cannot redeem yourself, but must be redeemed.

Looking forward to healthy discourse in the future len
God Bless.

21 March 2010 at 19:47  

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