Thursday, June 02, 2011

Mugabe moves to take control of the Zimbabwe’s Anglican Church

When His Grace drew attention to the warm welcome given by Vatican officials to Robert Mugabe at the Beatification Mass of Pope John Paul II, he expected some of the usual suspects to level all manner of ‘anti-Catholic’ allegations against him. And they did not disappoint. The fact that the same criticisms were also made by many of their co-religionists was neither here nor there: when an Anglican says it, it must be bigotry. President Mugabe was welcome to participate fully in the Beatification Mass because the Vatican ‘is acting in the best interest of Catholics in Zimbabwe’, said one commentator. And so His Grace ought to be equally charitable, for fear of reprisals (against Zimbabweans; not His Grace [he presumes]).

But Fr Alexander Lucie-Smith went further in his defence of Mugabe’s continuing incommunication. He observed:
The Vatican is a Church; on what grounds can it ban someone from coming to Mass? It is perfectly true it could place Mugabe under interdict for his many sins and misdemeanours, but if you start with Mugabe, where would you finish? Should Berlusconi also be banned? What about the much married Sarkozy? What about, let us say, the late Robin Cook? In these circumstances, given the difficulty in judging politicians, it does seem reasonable to accept all comers. They accepted Mussolini and Jörg Haider, after all. The latter did cause an outcry, but to have banned him would have made every prospective visit a nightmare of potential protest.
The assertion that an excommunication which starts with Mugabe would have no logical end is a proposition which His Grace will leave his readers and communicants to consider. It appears that there is one spiritual standard applied to the great and the good, and quite another for the lowly peasant. It is widely known that the Roman Catholic Church excommunicated a doctor for performing an abortion on a nine-year-old girl who had been chronically abused by her stepfather. The child's mother and the entire medical team involved in the procedure were also excommunicated, yet the rapist remained free to receive the sacred host and to continue getting drunk on the wine. Still, if you start with excommunicating rapists, where would you finish? Mugabe is a politician and so remains free to maim and murder, to terrorise and torture. But God help you if you have no political clout and attempt to act compassionately towards a raped nine-year-old who is carrying her step-father’s twins.

If by committing such sins and misdemeanours the not-so-faithful excommunicate themselves, it ought to be incumbent upon their pastors and priests to ensure that they do not eat and drink judgement upon themselves. What they bind on earth is bound in heaven (Mt 18:18). His Grace is of the view that Mugabe should be bound, gagged and a swift meeting arranged with his maker. The fact that he remains loose and in communion is a disgrace.

One wonders if this would be the case if he were doing to the Roman Catholic Church in Zimbabwe what he is doing to the Anglican Church. This question was posed by the Rev’d Canon Bruce Saunders (Southwark Cathedral) in The Catholic Herald comment thread:
As an Anglican priest in London, Mugabe's visit makes me question the Vatican's rhetoric about ecumenism, limited as it has become. If Mugabe were doing to Catholics in Zimbabwe what he and his thugs are doing to Anglicans, maybe we'd hear a different story. Legitimately consecrated Anglican bishops are receiving death threats, masses are interrupted by the police, priests and congregations are regularly arrested, imprisoned and beaten, Anglican Church property has been stolen. The police, CIO and army are regularly employed to enforce this intimidation and violence. The courts are powerless or unwilling to enforce justice. The chief culprit is the excommunicated former bishop of Harare, Nolbert Kunonga, a political ally of the President and multiple beneficiary of land reform. Churches, schools, mission hospitals that I have visited are now being threatened and claimed by Kunonga. He has the President's authority to intimidate, arrest and harass. This is religious persecution. It appears that the Vatican either doesn't know what is happening to their separated brethren or doesn't care.
The New York Times reports of the intensification of the ‘harassment’ of independent churches seen as hostile to Mugabe's government. While he singles out Roman Catholic bishops who have ‘a nauseating habit of unnecessarily attacking his person’, it is leaders of the Anglican Church ‘who have lately faced the most sustained pressure’.

From our armchairs, we can scarcely begin to imagine what this ‘harassment’ and ‘sustained pressure’ consists of:
“The throne is here,” declared Mr. Kunonga, who has held onto his bishopric here in the sprawling diocese of Harare through courts widely seen as partisan to Mr. Mugabe. He has also been backed by a police force answerable to the president, whom Mr. Kunonga describes as “an angel.”

...Anglican leaders here who have refused to submit to Mr. Kunonga’s authority say they have been subjected to death threats, spied on by state agents and blocked from worshiping in their churches or burying the dead in Anglican cemeteries.

Godfrey Tawonezvi, bishop of Masvingo, described a visit from two men, who told him that Mr. Kunonga had instructed them to “eliminate” the five bishops who stood in the way of his controlling the Anglican Church in Zimbabwe. “They had all our phone numbers, our home addresses,” Mr. Tawonezvi recalled.

Julius Makoni, the bishop of Manicaland, another of the five, said in an interview, “We’re all being followed.”

...Mr. Kunonga’s aim, he and his adviser, the Rev. Admire Chisango, said, is for their breakaway Anglican church to control about 3,000 churches, schools, hospitals and other properties in Zimbabwe, Zambia, Botswana and Malawi — a treasure accumulated since Anglican missionaries first arrived in what is now Zimbabwe during the 19th century.

...Most Anglicans in Harare have remained in congregations under Bishop Gandiya and the global Anglican Communion. They have been barred from worshiping in Anglican churches, gathering instead in rented churches and schools, open fields, even cemeteries. The police have interpreted court rulings as giving the Kunonga faction control of church properties.

The archbishop of Canterbury, the Most Rev. Rowan Williams, who leads the Anglican Communion, wrote Mr. Mugabe this year, beseeching him to stop “the continuing bullying, harassment and persecution” of Anglicans in Zimbabwe — but received no reply, the archbishop’s press secretary said.
Canon Bruce Saunders was recently in the Masvingo diocese, which is basically the last standing ‘free’ bit of the Anglican Church in Zimbabwe. He writes:
‘We are beyond fear’ was the answer an Anglican bishop in Zimbabwe gave me ten years ago when I asked him how he and his people were coping with the relentless intimidation from the Zimbabwean Government, police and security forces. Since then the situation has dramatically deteriorated. Intimidation has become physical violence. Threats have turned into beatings, rape and murder. The people’s trust in the forces of law and order has been blatantly abused by repeated acts of injustice, and as the Bishop of Harare has said recently, ‘When the justice system and the police are themselves corrupt, who can we turn to for justice?’

Anglican Church leaders continue to receive death threats, and believers are subject to violent harassment when they attempt to meet for worship. Churches, schools and mission hospitals are invaded and appropriated for the greater glory of Mugabe.

...With the forces of law and order complicit in the persecution, with no financial resources to mount a legal challenge in the courts, and with the West having largely lost interest in the intractable Zimbabwean situation, the Church in Zimbabwe can only wait and suffer until the close personal relationship between Mugabe and Kunonga comes to a natural end.
Since the persecution is now extending beyond the Anglican Church to all denominations who attempt to assist or speak up for the oppressed, perhaps the Vatican might consider excommunicating Comrade Mugabe once and for all? They needn’t worry about having to do the same to Berlusconi or Sarkozy, for the governments of Italy and France tend to treat their peoples rather more like human beings and their politicians have a higher appreciation of the meaning of the sanctity of life.

It is not bigotry to demand the excommunication of incarnate evil: it is an expression of solidarity with those who are being persecuted, tortured and murdered. Having failed to elicit any response from Mugabe, perhaps the Archbishop of Canterbury might consider writing to Pope Benedict XVI in the hope that he might help to bring an end to ‘the continuing bullying, harassment and persecution’ of Anglicans and all Christians in Zimbabwe.

99 Comments:

Blogger Gnostic said...

If Mugabe isn't a prime candidate for excommunication then who the hell is? Is seems that you can break "God's" laws and still get an invite from the Pope but don't you ever question, criticise or break the laws laid down by the (un)Holy See of Rome because heresy and schisms are unacceptable evils.

2 June 2011 10:12  
Anonymous Veracity said...

The Archbishop of Canterbury should immediately go to Zimbabwe and visit all bishops . End of story.

2 June 2011 10:13  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Church leaders continue to receive death threats, and believers are subject to violent harassment when they attempt to meet for worship. Churches, schools and mission hospitals are invaded and appropriated for the greater glory of Mugabe."

Sounds just like Henry VIII....

2 June 2011 10:52  
Blogger I am Stan said...

Mugabe moves in mysterious ways Your Grace

2 June 2011 11:00  
Anonymous bluedog said...

A sickening story, Your Grace, thank you for posting it. It seems no other African leader will ever censure Mugabe, certainly not from the one nation with real power, South Africa. The people of Zimbabwe have suffered grievously since the end of the Rhodesian state. The Left condemns everything done by the British in Africa, but they are strangely silent about the criminality of the African leaders and their cronies.

If the Roman Church is now working with Mugabe to confiscate Anglican property, as you seem to infer, Rowan should make a phone call to Benedict telling him to back off in no uncertain terms. Benedict has form when it comes to the Anglican Church. Could it be that two very old men are conspiring to destroy the Anglican communion in Southern Africa?

The suggestion by communicant Veracity that Rowan Cantuar should fly to Zimbabwe to meet Mugabe seems fraught with risk. A sequel to the Terry Waite saga could result.

2 June 2011 12:56  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your Grace, funny how history repeats itself. Mugabe sounds like a latter day Henry VIII. And this Bishop Nolbert Kunonga sounds like a latter day Cranmer. They want your property. Sounds familiar your Grace?

And when Henry was excommunicated for remarrying rather than making himself the Head of the Church of England, did that make the situation better or worse?

The Anglicans are still whining that Elizabeth I was excommunicated, even though she outlawed the Mass, smashed the altars, surrounded herself with Calvinists and executed many Bishops and Priests. Did that make the situation better or worse?

2 June 2011 13:00  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your Grace, isn't the Supreme Governor of the Church of England also the Head of the Armed Forces? Why doesn't she send in three drunken generals back from the Middle East to deal with Bishop Nolbert Kunonga this turbulent priest.

2 June 2011 13:14  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace

This paragraph could have been wriitten by the Nonconformists in the 17th century:

‘...Most [Nonconformists] in [England] have remained in congregations under Bishop [Independent] and the [national Nonconformist Church]. They have been barred from worshiping in Anglican churches, gathering instead in rented churches and schools, open fields, even cemeteries. The police have interpreted court rulings as giving the [Laudian] faction control of church properties.’

And those Nonconformists responded through their actions:

‘We are beyond fear’.

The Nonconformist movement produced the brilliant English general Oliver Cromwell.

The Nonconformists believed that the people are sovereign; on 30 January 1649 they proved the validity of that proposition, by cutting of the head of that dictator King Charles I.

So did their grandsons in the British colonies in continental America on the 4 July 1776: the beginning of the conflict for independence from our oppressive parliament. (Just think on that for a moment. If we had moved our parliament to New York: we would have been, in the 21st century, the greatest superpower that the world had ever known.)

It is as President Lincoln once said:

‘This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Wherever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it.’

[First Inaugural Address, 4 March 1861]

Our doctrine of ‘parliamentary sovereignty’ is a recent invention from the pen of A.V. Dicey (the 19th century constitutional theorist – prior to that the British people believed that they were sovereign).

If God’s people in Zimbabwe remain faithful (‘We are beyond fear’) then I am convinced that God will provide them with their own Cromwell and Zimbabwe will arise in glory – becoming Africa’s pre-eminent superpower – transforming the continent to living under law, order and the Pax Zimbabwe.

History has repeatedly shown that if you persecute God’s people their Lord will arise and He himself will fight on their behalf (as Archbishop Laud discovered on the scaffold).

2 June 2011 13:31  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Test

2 June 2011 13:32  
Blogger English Viking said...

Mugabe is a typical ex-colonial, Thick, arrogant, rude, violent, dictatorial and despising of the one fact that he can never get away from; without the British, the white men, he and his country would have remained in the backward, savage state it was rescued from by the Empire, and to which he seems determined to drag it back into.

He wanted independence, let him have it. Not a penny more from the 'motherland'.

The best advert for colonial rule is post colonial rule.

2 June 2011 13:33  
Blogger Lakester91 said...

Anonymous (13.00) makes a very good point,

However just because they're both wrong doesn't make the actions of Mugabe any more justifiable.

Damn difficult for the Church to know what to do. Working against the Nazis had to be done far more subtly. The famous anti-nazi homily letter in the 1930s really only lead to mass persecution and one way tickets to the work camps for priests and bishops. We may see the same happen in Zimbabwe if we're not careful.

However something has to be done. Something may already be happening between Catholics and Anglicans. After all, if it were working then we would know nothing about it.

Mr. Singh,

Cromwell was a mixed bag. A fantastic military mind and brilliant military reformer, but an absolute bastard as well. He used the Catholicism of Ireland to justify invasion, oppression and murder. Without him and his legacy, there would never have been Irish terrorism.

2 June 2011 13:58  
Blogger I am Stan said...

English Viking said "The best advert for colonial rule is post colonial rule."

Then you`re in favor of the colonization of Britain then?...;)

2 June 2011 14:53  
Blogger I am Stan said...

Your Grace,

Surely the Church must open its arms to even the most repugnant hell bound sinners, pray Mugabe is born again, embraces Christ`s teachings and atones for his sins.


I pray that one day little black boys and little white girls can play together in the cool waters of Victoria falls,

I pray that one day Robert Mugabe and English Viking can hold hands and stand atop of Mt Nyangani, raise their faces to the heavens, and sing together the old negro spiritual,

FREE AT LAST, FREE AT LAST, THANK GOD ALMIGHTY WE ARE FREE AT LAST

Peace!

2 June 2011 15:24  
Blogger English Viking said...

I am Stan,

I think it would be a jolly good idea if GB were to have the rules and regulations of Empire reinstated, and be governed by the kind of men and women that led that empire.

Ooh, you mean 'Do I object to allowing half-civilised savages into the nation, on a galactic scale, even though no one ever asked the electorate's permission, even though we pay (oh boy, do we pay) for it all in every way imaginable?'

Yes, I object most vociferously.

2 June 2011 15:38  
Blogger English Viking said...

Stan,

More than happy to sing God's praises with any brand of repentant sinner.

But he's not, is he?

2 June 2011 15:41  
Anonymous len said...

Why on Earth would the Vatican excommunicate Mugabe when they never excommunicated Hitler.
Throughout history you will find that the Vatican has always supported Totalitarian Regimes. After all, they are one themselves.
Hitler's Germany amalgamated state with church. Soldiers of the vermacht wore belt buckles inscribed with the following: "Gott mit uns" (God is with us). His troops were often sprinkled with holy water by Catholic priests. It was a real 'christian 'country whose citizens were indoctrinated by both state and church and blindly followed all authority figures, political and ecclesiastical.
............
This however was NOT biblical Christianity.The only hope for Humanity lies in following the teachings of Jesus Christ.

2 June 2011 15:43  
Anonymous Devine Brown said...

Where is the Last Dodo- I thought he'd be on here like a flash to defend his precious catholic church? Or was that the Last Dodo at 13.00 and 13.14 hrs?

2 June 2011 15:54  
Blogger English Viking said...

Devine Brown,

He dare not show his face because he was caught out in a lie.

2 June 2011 16:04  
Blogger I am Stan said...

@ English Viking, the Zimbabwe people paid for colonialism, still paying.

English Viking said- "Yes, I object most vociferously."


Your vociferous objections are noted EV, however I believe your beloved colonists were forewarned.

GALATIANS 6: 7-9 (KJV)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

2 June 2011 16:09  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Oh Viki you really do want to hear from me then?

I'll not condemn nor defend the Vatican. To me Mugabe is behaving as a hateful man and his elimination, let alone excommunication, would be probably be justified according to moral law and certainly under Church canon law. However, how would the mad man react to the latter?

Do bear in mind this is an excommunicated Anglican Bishop persecuting the Anglican Church. I am certain this is most definately NOT supported by the Roman Catholic Church. I am sure too the Chuch IS doing all it can, locally and internationally, to help.

To suggest, as Mr bluedog did, Mr AB Cranmer was accussing the Catholic Church of working with Mugabe and that two very old men are conspiring to destroy the Anglican communion in Southern Africa, is ridiculous!

And for len to say that throughout history the Vatican has always supported totalitarian regimes is a shameful, bare-faced untruth. Just who was instrumental, for example, in bringing down the Russian Communist Empire?

A simplistic, one-sided reading too of the Catholic Church's action in Nazi Germany. But then he sees the Roman Church as evil incarnate, the 'whore' foretold in Prophecy and alongside the EU, as the citidel of the anti-Christ. He can predict the future too!

As for comparing the Vatican's responses to an abortion in Brazil with its response to Magabe in Africa, well I can see this is useful as a stick to beat the Church with. As a valid comparison though it fails.

2 June 2011 16:45  
Anonymous Quinn Dexter said...

"the Roman Church as evil incarnate, the 'whore' foretold in Prophecy and alongside the EU, as the citidel of the anti-Christ"

Finally Dodo is on the level!

2 June 2011 17:01  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Quinn Dexter

You another who, just like Satan, thinks he can discern God's ultimate plan in Scripture. Jesus warned us against this, you know?

2 June 2011 17:09  
Anonymous Quinn Dexter said...

Last Dodo, what makes you think I worship your God?

2 June 2011 17:35  
Anonymous not a machine said...

Your grace makes a powerful case ,the distinction of being in a state of repentence and taking communion and using power appearing to be sanctioned by the roman catholic church , is well made.

I would think holy see and Anglican relations are such these days ,that they will see any wrongdoings in an echumenical sense. Mugabe is a violent dictator running his country very badly with poverty and fear, propped up by well paid and armed cronies who share in the trough.

It is a sorrow that a country that could do so much more for its people is bound with his dictatorship.

2 June 2011 17:37  
Blogger Anabaptist said...

Mr Last Dodo asks:
'Just who was instrumental, for example, in bringing down the Russian Communist Empire?'

Er... Ronald Reagan, Margaret Thatcher, Lech Walenska, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, etc., etc. But mainly the weight of its own contradictions, its economic collapse, its inability to sustain its side of the arms race, the inevitable failure, post-Stalin, of its internal terror regime. And so on.

And maybe that Polish Pope also played a minor role.

2 June 2011 17:41  
Anonymous Colonial Office Under Secretary said...

Rhodesia didn't have mass starvation when ruled by the Empire, did it? In fact wasn't it one of the most productive areas of southern africa before ZANU-PF, Mugabe and his other henchmen took over and instigated his lunatic and racist policy against the farmers and then trashing everyone else?

2 June 2011 17:41  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

But would this be allowed if Britain was not full of traitors.

Nothing will be put right until our own house is in order.

Don't blame those who take advantage of our weakness, start by sorting out our own failings.

2 June 2011 17:42  
Anonymous Gay Anglican said...

I have to say I have got an academic book about the cold war and it doesn't mention the Pope once, but does support the Anabaptist's list of the various reasons given for the end of the Soviet system. In any case the Vatican only takes a stance against those who are against its own brand of religion- thus russia/eastern europe were a prime target because that area was fully of officially atheist states. Hitler and Mussolini were OK, because they were good catholics and were thus respectable. Just like Mugabe is deemed to be now.

2 June 2011 17:45  
Anonymous Len's former lodger said...

"the Roman Church as evil incarnate, the 'whore' foretold in Prophecy and alongside the EU, as the citidel of the anti-Christ"

Wow! Dodo is coming over to our way of thinking at last! Good chap, I knew your previous and extremly tounge in check posts were really a cover to test the true disciples of the light!

2 June 2011 17:48  
Blogger English Viking said...

Stan,

I think you'll find that the British taxpayer is paying for colonialism, and we don't even have any colonies!

Zimbabwe is a basket case. SA is hot on its heels.

Sub-saharan Africa is a mess, and its nowt to do with Queen Vic. Its merely reverted to the tribal wastelands it was before the Brits civilised the place.

2 June 2011 18:19  
Blogger English Viking said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

2 June 2011 18:19  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Anabaptist said...
I think you'll discover that Lech Walenska was a Roman Catholic who got great support from the Church and its communicants. The Pope's speech "Do not be afraid ..." in 1982 was an inspiration to Solidarity in its darkest days. More than a 'minor role'.

As for 'Len's former lodger', well in your wildest dreams and I give the same answer as that to Quinn Dexter (who appears not to worship the Christian God):

... another who, just like Satan, thinks he can discern God's ultimate plan in Scripture. Jesus warned us against this, you know?

Satan got is wrong twice ... and will get it wrong the third and final time!

2 June 2011 18:46  
Anonymous Paul said...

Question:Would Jesus welcome Mugabe into the church ?

2 June 2011 20:41  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Paul said ...
"Question: Would Jesus welcome Mugabe into the church?"

Answer: Ask Him when you meet.

It's probably better to be concerned with your own salvation than Mugabe's.

2 June 2011 20:48  
Blogger Owl said...

Speaking as an RC, I don't think Mugabe should be excomunicated.

Put up against a wall and shot would be a much better idea.

2 June 2011 21:19  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Your Grace's post is particularly timely in the light of an article in the Daily Telegraph reporting a speech by Nobel Prize winner FW de Klerk. It appears that the same sense of black empowerment and racial determinism that is practiced by Mugabe in Zimbabwe is now being aggressively promoted by SA President Jacob Zuma. The report goes as follows, 'Mr de Klerk said the ANC was seeking "massive and forced redistribution of property and wealth from the white minority to the black majority".

"Whites, Coloureds and Asians would be corralled into demographic pens in all aspects of their economic and professional lives according to the percentage of the population they represent," he warned.

"The prospects of South African citizens would once again be determined by the colour of their skins - and not by their skills, their contribution."

Your communicant understands that Zuma's predeliction for getting on top of the whites is not restricted to political matters. On a recent trip to a central Asian republic, part of the former Soviet Union, Zuma's appetite for Russian whores astonished even his corrupt hosts.

When will we hear condemnation of Zuma's intentions from Milipede, Clegg and the rest of the Left?

2 June 2011 22:02  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

I'm sorry to say this, but wouldn't the world be a better place if the British Empire were restored? Or am I just an Edwardian out of date reactionary?

2 June 2011 22:56  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Owl said...
"Speaking as an RC, I don't think Mugabe should be excomunicated.
Put up against a wall and shot would be a much better idea."

I assume you're speaking as someone who is a Roman Catholic and accept that your opinion may not be representative of Roman Catholic opinion more generally.

Certainly capital punishment is permissible according to Catholic teaching. However, recently some senior Church leaders have questioned its necessity in this day and age.

Do you hold a similar view in respect of Mladic?

bluedog, you will know the speech of de Klerk was speculative and not factual. It seems the main basis was Zuma's friendship with one Julius Malema who is facing race hate proceedings in the country's Equality Court for inflamatory speeches. His views are not supported by the ANC.
Another prophet or doom?

2 June 2011 22:57  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

personally I am not a euroskeptic because of Revelation, but for "secular" reasons; because of my conviction that Albion should not be ruled by 'johnny foreigner'- if that were to be so why did our brave island stand against the Armada, Napoleon, the Kaiser, Hitler and Stalin???

In respect of the Rhodesian crisis, I think it is a point of fact to point out that until this odious Maghalfwit and his racist agenda,Southern Rhoesia had food aplenty, was relatively rich and considered to be a 'model' for Liberal African democracy. So why isn't Cameron bombing him?? Is it because there is bugger all oil and gas in that land?

2 June 2011 23:08  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

If Mugashit was to leave Rhodesia and go off to somewhere else (Iran for example) then, I think that would be a compromise (athough my heart tells me I agree with Owl- put the war criminal against a wall and shoot). Then we could pour in cash to the long suffering people of that land (especially if it takes it away from the Taliban/Pakistan) and see some time of justice for the people there. It's not right the way they are governed at present.

2 June 2011 23:13  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Mr Dodo 2 22.57, Mr de Klerk's comments can be regarded as informed opinion, and do not require re-interpretation or misrepresentation by any party, yourself included.

2 June 2011 23:24  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Lord Lavendon

I agree with your underlying argument that the international community should do something. It is a mystery why the evident genocide in Zimbabwe (it was renamed dear boy some years ago)isn't attracking more UN attention.

One thing is for sure, it most certainly isn't because Rome won't excommunicate him!

2 June 2011 23:31  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

bluedog said...
"Mr Dodo
Mr de Klerk's comments can be regarded as informed opinion, and do not require re-interpretation or misrepresentation by any party, yourself included."

Wrong!

You failed to present a balanced account and I'm perfectly at liberty to disagree with his "informed opinion" and your one sided report!

Do you think it right that Malema is standing trial for race hate in the South Africa's Equality Court?

Free speech or an incitement to hatred?

And what about Mladic?

2 June 2011 23:37  
Blogger Dodo's Long Lost Other Half said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

3 June 2011 00:49  
Blogger Dodo's Long Lost Other Half said...

Hi Folks

Dodo has been reunited with me after many lonely years and so will be far less angry in the future - except towrds the Norse. He is a nasty man!

Of course, he'll be off to bed much earlier too. Afterall, we have to do something about our near extinction.

Me, I won't have anything to do with all this political and religious stuff. Happy to leave that to you gentleman but hope you all become a little bit more civilised. You're suppossed to be better than us animals.

I suspect we'll have the media after us too so we will be taking out a 'super injunction'.

Night, night.

3 June 2011 01:25  
Anonymous not a machine said...

June 2nd was an important day in the christian calendar , it was ascension day , the day jesus ascended into heaven.

I think R4 did a service with archbishop of Canterbury.

I am sometimes aware of how different a life with christ is ,the old ways still wrestle. It is hard to tread softly and speak wisely when so much godless attitudes abound.
jesus is there , I am sure of that let us hope and pray that our christian churches can minister and build faith , in these times .

3 June 2011 01:34  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Lord Lavendon: so nice to see your comments - with which I tend to sympathise. Time was when the map was easier to read. Rhodesia was once among the nicer places to visit, too; but then, so was Britain!

Overall on this topic: insult compounds injury -- even as we continue to pay ruling elites everywhere, they increase their persecution of our kind. It becomes clearer every day that appeasement doesn't work against evil. It's impossible to imagine what will happen if we continue without taking a stand: when the money runs out completely, and when the Western coffers are emptier than they are now. I support Your Grace's request for action by Church leaders.

3 June 2011 05:43  
Anonymous Voyager said...

The only people who influence Mugabe are the Chinese, and their day of reckoning approaches. I always favoured airlifting Nigerian troops to Zimbabwe and shaking South Africa to its core by providing Nigeria with continental reach, but our politicians are too lame.

The Anglican Church is clearly very effective which is why it is persecuted, it is being a real Church as in Iraq. Maybe the Nigerian Church should send the letter with another to Jacob Zuma from the Nigerian military ?

3 June 2011 07:33  
Anonymous IanCad said...

If there were ever a man who deserved the Bell, Book and Candle it would have to be Mugabe.
The pantry of Africa has been raided and destroyed by this thug for too long.
It should not be an International problem. The UK has an obligation to guarantee that ex-colonies live up to the constitutions that were established as a condition of their independence.
South Africa will be next.

3 June 2011 07:46  
Anonymous len said...

Dodo,
Your posts stand as a testimony to error.
You seem to be making a career of it.

Every post of yours drives a nail further into the coffin of Catholicism, and exposes more errors.In fact the best thing you could do for the Vatican is quietly disappear.But keep it up, you are doing a great job for all who oppose Catholicism. I see you have also enlisted the help of 'another' to help you, to get the job done quicker,I suppose.
Come clean now , your not really a Catholic are you?.
You are the ghost of Martin Luther aren`t you?.

3 June 2011 08:28  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Mr Dodo @ 23.37 asked inter alia, '..what about Mladic?

If you are not aware, Mladic is Serbian and His Grace has posted on Southern African matters. Mladic would appear to be off-topic.

In addition, my earlier post quoted FW de Klerk on the basis that it seemed unnecessary to add to his comments. I don't see this as 'one-sided' and feel no obligation to represent the ANC position; I'll leave that to you.

Notably FW de Klerk does not mention Malema, but you do, implying that de Klerk meant to say something he did not say.

Why put words in de Klerk's mouth? Do you know de Klerk well enough to interpret his explicit remarks as having a meaning different to that stated?

Perhaps you can entertain us by explaining how your co-religionist Mugabe was permitted to receive the sacrament at the Vatican in view of the requirement to make confession before doing so. What doctrinal contortions would a priest need to execute before granting absolution to a mass-murderer?

3 June 2011 08:47  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mugabe must find the corrupt, shallow and worldly values of the Anglican Church appealing.

3 June 2011 09:01  
Blogger I am Stan said...

Lord L said "Or am I just an Edwardian out of date reactionary?"

Edwardian! do you have an interest in Socialism, the suffragetts and wearing a tight bodice?,

I guess if you want to turn the clock back to the days of a rigid class system with red coats "civilizing" Jonny foreigner with a Lee Enfield bayonet plundering all natural and human recourses for the benefit of the upper classes then yes you are reactionary.

I`d say out of date, but there`s no harm in seeing history through a rose tinted monocle and playing at being a Lord.

3 June 2011 09:09  
Blogger ENGLISHMAN said...

OH horror excumunication,and a whole post condemning the situation,i must have missed the post where the refusal to give communion ,or even allow BNP members into thier local church was attacked.How is your porn site ,stan,found some new white wimmins to grace its pages?

3 June 2011 09:38  
Anonymous Voyager said...

with red coats "civilizing" Jonny foreigner with a Lee Enfield bayonet plundering all natural and human recourse

Your spelling betrays your age, and your age betrays your poor grasp of history. When British soldiers wore red coats they were often Hessian mercenaries impressed into service by their impecunious local princes. Red Coats were helpful in distinguishing them from French soldiers wearing blue who were protecting the natives from the predatory British and serving them cake and cream buns.

You must recall the noble French in Canada, Louisiana, India and the Caribbean.....if only they could have left North America and India in the same charming state as Haiti......you would not have had to learn about the evil British in your dumbed-down curriculum......but sneering ignorance combined with functional illiteracy seems an ideal outcome

3 June 2011 10:07  
Blogger I am Stan said...

@ ENGLISHMAN......you still sulking?


@ Voyager, "impressed into service" were they, well thats impressive, red coat or blue the land grabbing, stripping of resourses and forced labour with the point of a bayonet was my er! point.

If you want to be pedantic go teach!

3 June 2011 10:31  
Anonymous Voyager said...

stripping of resourses

If you want to be pedantic go teach!

Wouldn't waste my time when there are trogs like yourself around that cannot even spell resources yet continues to consume them

3 June 2011 12:29  
Blogger I am Stan said...

@Voyager,

In respect to his Grace I shall ignore you and your childish,petty name calling.

Go forth and in peace.

3 June 2011 13:22  
Blogger Mr Dodo said...

"Notably FW de Klerk does not mention Malema, but you do, implying that de Klerk meant to say something he did not say."

You have clearly NOT read the speech! He specificallly used Malema as the focus of his speech and publically rebuked him. He also referred to Zumba not speaking out against him.

Do your research properly.

And so far a Mugabe receiving the communion without first seeking reconciliation with God, assuming he didn't, the Church is absolutely clear doctrinally.

For anyone to receive communion in a state of grievous sin is condemned by the Church. Since you are interested, the conditions for reconciliation with God are: an acceptance of sin, a firm purpose of future amendment, an intention to make good harm caused, confession to a Priest and compliance with any restitution required by him.

What the implications might have been of for the people's of Zimbabwe of publically admonishing Mugabe, an unstable mass murderer, and then humiliating him further by refusing to grant communion, we can only speculate over.

And is Mladic really off topic? Another mass murder who is to stand trial for crimes against humanity.

3 June 2011 13:48  
Blogger Mr Dodo said...

len said...
"Dodo,
Your posts stand as a testimony to error ... Every post of yours drives a nail further into the coffin of Catholicism, and exposes more errors."

Now THAT is something of an overstatement! My political views are my own, influenced by my faith but not determined by it. There is room for freedom of conscience in Roman Catholicism when it comes to politics.

I think the position of some of your fellow travellers is more likely to cause terror than mine.

Can you imagine world leaders and Church leaders strutting about saying Islam is an evil, oppressive ideology that breeds extremism? That would really help the situation in Pakistan and the Middle East!

Or, at home, repatriating Muslims, banning the Koran, refusing to allow Mosques to be built and retricting EU migrant workers who happen to be Muslim from entering the UK? That will lead to stability at home.

Neither do I attempt to read world politics through a personal interpretation of Biblical prophecy and form my political views on this basis.

Liberal democracies and capitalism are facing very significant challenges of adjustment to the realities of the world. Extremism and predictions of doom and gloom are unhelpful.

3 June 2011 14:06  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How could the priest give that monster the communion wafer????


Damo Mackerel.

3 June 2011 17:56  
Blogger Mr Dodo said...

Anonymous said...
"How could the priest give that monster the communion wafer????"

"And when they were at table and eating, Jesus says: Amen I say to you, one of you that eats with me shall betray me." (Mk 14:18)

"But yet behold: the hand of him that betrays me is with me on the table." (Lk 22:21)

Nowadays the Church doesn't use the public giving and witholding of communion as a political tool. Those days are gone. Where would they draw the line? A requirement for Catholic leaders of State's be in communion with Rome? That would go down very well!

And besides, as posted earlier, just what the implications might have been of for the people's of Zimbabwe of publically humiliating Mugabe, an unstable mass murderer, we can only speculate about.

Mugabe is ultimately responsible before God:

"So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord." (Cor 1 11:28)

3 June 2011 22:39  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Apologies Mr Dodo @ 13.48, you are quite right, there is reference to Malema. I cut and pasted and then the link disappeared. Should have searched.

You say 'What the implications might have been of for the people's of Zimbabwe of publically admonishing Mugabe, an unstable mass murderer, and then humiliating him further by refusing to grant communion, we can only speculate over.'

Well if the RC Church cannot defend Christian values, is there any hope for it? Saying what you believe is not an exercise in humiliation.

Taking a broader and non-sectarian view, it is important that Mugabe sought salvation in Rome. If Mugabe was floating down the Ganges or wreathed in joss-stick smoke in Beijing it would signify a loss of influence amongst the African leadership at the deepest level.

3 June 2011 23:56  
Blogger Owl said...

Dodo,

Sorry, I have to disagree with you.

If the RC church does not take a moral stand on this it looses credibility, certainly in my eyes.

The Vatican has not been forgiven for it's silence on the Nazi atrocities during WW II. Do we learn nothing from history?

You ask "what would be the implications for the people of Zimbabwa if Mugabe is publically humiliated".

I ask what are the implications for the people of Zimbabwa if Mugabe is NOT publically humiliated.

They, the people of Zimbabwa, will feel sold out by the one Church which should stand up and fight for them even if nobody else does.

Do we need another Pastor Niemoller to state the bloody obvious again.

I hang my head in shame for my own church, and I am not alone.

4 June 2011 00:19  
Blogger Wandering Pilgrim said...

Lakester91 "Without him [Cromwell] and his legacy, there would never have been Irish terrorism."

SO are we ignoring the massacre of Protestant by Irish terrorists in the 1641's which occurred prior to Cromwell's invasion in 1649 or the massacres of Protestants by Irish terrorists in the 1500's almost a century before Cromwell's birth?

4 June 2011 05:28  
Anonymous len said...

Wandering Pilgrim, SO are we ignoring the massacre of Protestant by Irish terrorists in the 1641's which occurred prior to Cromwell's invasion in 1649 or the massacres of Protestants by Irish terrorists in the 1500's almost a century before Cromwell's birth?
(4 June 2011 05:28)
Seems we are,along with a host of other things important to God but not to Catholics.

4 June 2011 08:17  
Blogger Lakester91 said...

Wandering Pilgrim,

I never implied ignorance of this, I simply stated a fact. Oppression leads to violence. If I had mentioned the rebellion of 1641, would it have made my statement less true?

Oh and don't call is a massacre of Protestants. It was a rebellion against oppressive English rule. Perhaps when we rebel against the EU we'll be known as terrorists...

4 June 2011 12:11  
Blogger Lakester91 said...

Mr Owl,

"The Vatican has not been forgiven for it's silence on the Nazi atrocities during WW II. Do we learn nothing from history?

Evidently you haven't

4 June 2011 12:16  
Blogger English Viking said...

Lakester,

Shame they didn't start speaking out until '41 though?

'31 would have been a marked improvement.

4 June 2011 13:50  
Blogger Mr Dodo said...

Owl said...
"Dodo,
Sorry, I have to disagree with you ... I hang my head in shame for my own church, and I am not alone."

Disageeement is your right but be careful your views are not being over influenced by anti-Catholic prejudice.

The role of the Catholic Church in Nazi Germany is not one of collusion or passivity. The Mugabe situation is presents many challenges.

'Shame' for the Church, without considering all the sides to the issues, leaves you vulnerable spiritually open to attack.

From the 'history' will come an attack on the Papacy and the Church's structure. Then an attack on the doctrine and dogma of the Church. Before you know it you will be doubting the very foundations of Catholicism.

Have a critical view of Church history and its role in current affairs today. Question its past and present actions. Just be cautious but too readily accepting the version of events given by those hostile to Rome and think of their possible motives for this.

4 June 2011 14:22  
Anonymous len said...

Dodo,
'Shame' for the Church, without considering all the sides to the issues, leaves you vulnerable spiritually open to attack.'

So does constantly denying the truth about scripture , you are trying to bolt the door but the roofs missing!.

4 June 2011 14:28  
Blogger Little Black Sambo said...

"Elizabeth I was excommunicated, even though she outlawed the Mass, smashed the altars, surrounded herself with Calvinists and executed many Bishops and Priests."
It was the other way round: the Pope's foolish act absolved English subjects of their loyalty to the Crown, so Roman Catholicism became essentially treasonous.

4 June 2011 14:36  
Blogger Mr Dodo said...

English Viking said...
"Lakester,
Shame they didn't start speaking out until '41 though?
'31 would have been a marked improvement."

Name one significant world or church leader, apart from Churchill, who spoke out against Facism in 1931?

Name the 'protestant' churches and pastors who spoke out publically against Nazi tyranny within Germany?

4 June 2011 14:43  
Blogger English Viking said...

Apart from Churchill?

You're funny.

Seig Heil!

4 June 2011 14:48  
Blogger English Viking said...

Hey Dodo,

Check out this link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQBhxOFjCn0

At 0:21, a young Ratzinger can clearly be seen.

LOL!

4 June 2011 14:52  
Blogger Mr Dodo said...

len said...
"Dodo ... constantly denying the truth about scripture ..."

I agree a false reading of scripture is spiritually dangerous.

As dangerous as failing to accept the limits of any one individual's capacity to understand and interpret it and spread its message throughout the world.

4 June 2011 14:53  
Blogger English Viking said...

Dodo,

So Paul was 'limited' in his doctrine, was he?

Muppet.

4 June 2011 16:22  
Blogger Mr Dodo said...

Viki

Are you claiming len has the same authority as St Paul?

Anyway, were the books of the New Testament, including Revalation, around at the time of St Paul?

Dimwit!

4 June 2011 18:23  
Blogger Lakester91 said...

Mr Viking,

'31 would have been a marked improvement.

Haha I kind of hoped you'd make that point.

1931 against Fascism (Italy in this case)

1937 (before the war) German Nazism

In fact I think a good perusing of this might be in order

Len I've asked you a number of times to stop reading Jack T Chick. He's a well known fraud.

4 June 2011 20:21  
Anonymous len said...

Jack who?

Is that it ,your answer?

4 June 2011 21:03  
Anonymous len said...

Lakester 91 I once 'accused 'you of being intelligent, informed, and articulate.

I withdraw that.

I imagine you, fingers firmly inserted in ears,eyes firmly closed ,whistling loudly, in case any vestige of truth should slip past the 'Catholic forcefield' which surrounds your head.

4 June 2011 21:24  
Anonymous len said...

Dodo,
Who interprets scripture for you.?

I think I know this one but want you to confirm it.

4 June 2011 21:36  
Blogger Lakester91 said...

Len,

Firstly I apologise, as the part of my previous post addressed to you should have appeared in a different thread (which I'm sure you've already guessed).

It is a shame that you are so fickle. Perhaps I just ask the right questions. When all is well and done, all conspiracy theories break down after these simple questions.

Why would someone go to such lengths when there are easier ways of getting what you want?

How is it, that such an intricate plan has gone undiscovered for such a long time when it would take just a single mistake for the whole thing to come crashing down (after all, the bigger the conspiracy, the bigger the paper trail)?

And finally, to debunk most myths, simply ask why do it at all?

Am I a fool because I don't think that the Islamic faith was created by the Christian Church as a way of destroying fellow Christians?

Am I a fool for thinking that some of the more obscure beliefs are the result of years of theological reasoning rather than arbitrary methods to destroy the one true faith?

I still think that you are intelligent and articulate; you have just fallen into a habit of conspiracy wrangling. It's not going to send you to Hell, but it's not productive either. You're incredibly Scripturally literate, but like Mr Viking (though to a much lesser extent) your interpretations are sometimes a little eccentric.

PS. Jack T Chick is a fundie whacko from America who writes comics about various matters of faith. He's got a big issue with everyone that isn't an evangelical like him and is the source of most anti-Catholic conspiracy theories. He's well known enough to have an entire page dedicated to debunking his myths as well as others that expose some of the less than admirable things he gets up to. There's a parody site somewhere as well, but it's less than funny. I'd say look him up, but I don't want you getting ideas ;P

4 June 2011 22:24  
Blogger English Viking said...

Lakester,

Ohh, the cat-licks profited not one bit from the Holocaust, did they? No Gold. No paintings. No sculptures?

His Grace has banned me from posting links, but I could show dozens that prove your pope-filled hate.

Catholicism is vile, a cult ruled by a megalomaniac, riddled with pædophiles and unlearned tossers which spout shite, because they cannot think for themselves.

4 June 2011 22:31  
Blogger Owl said...

Viki,

You'll have to stop taking those tablets, it's interferering with your thought processes.

The Catholic church contains some of the best and some of the worst. Much like any other church.

You take scripture literally, I don't. I don't carry an axe, you do.

Hate is not doing you good.

Pop over to Ireland where many of your forefathers settled. Sit down with a pint of Guiness and listen to some good music.

Those Cat-Licks are quite friendly people although you might have to leave your axe outside.

In fact, you might have a problem figuring out which ones are the Cat-Licks and which ones are the Prods.
They tend to mix with no problem.

5 June 2011 00:02  
Blogger Lakester91 said...

Mr Viking,

Listen to Mr Owl. The Church lost many good men to the holocaust. I find it quite disgraceful that you should, as some novel fantasy, decide that it was a good thing for the faith. The Nazis hated the Church, the Catholics were the only Christian group to consistently vote against them, and the number of anti-nazi letters, homilies and actions made the Pope, in Hitler's own words, his greatest enemy.

Disagree with doctrine if you will, but fantasising about history is infantile.

Catholicism is vile, a cult ruled by a megalomaniac, riddled with pædophiles and unlearned tossers which spout shite, because they cannot think for themselves.

Sounds like you've been listening to too many atheists... Perhaps rather than devouring every tasty MSM morsel of anti-Catholicism like a starving hound, you ought to (how ironic to say) think for yourself? Critical thinking is a far greater sign of intelligence than repeating what you've read.

Mr Owl,

I agree with you about the situation in Ireland. The only people who are stirring division are those who wish for violence. This is on both sides. The vast majority have moved on from sectarianism; now there is equality, what is there left to fight about?

5 June 2011 00:33  
Blogger Mrs Dodo said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5 June 2011 02:03  
Blogger Mr Dodo said...

len said...
"Dodo,
Who interprets scripture for you.?
I think I know this one but want you to confirm it."

I'll start with a question:

Who interprets it for you?

Surely you rely on some assistance? Even the position of 'sola scriptura', not actually mentioned in the bible, comes from a line of protestant thinkers. Are you saying you are free to believe what you like, where-ever the Spirit may lead you?

Catholics are encouraged to read the Bible and personal reflection, even personal insight is accepted -within limits.

Scriptures have been translated into dogma and doctrine by the Church in Ecumenical Councils for centuries. In addition, theological treaties are available in abundance and these include personal and individual reflections of Popes which are not dogmatic statements.

Outside of defined doctrine and dogma, Catholics are entitled and encouraged to prayfully read scripture, to understand and apply it to their lives.

5 June 2011 02:10  
Blogger len said...

Dodo,
I suppose you half half answered my question so I will answer yours.
BTW yes I am opposed to Catholicism as I see how it corrupted the gospel.
But they(Catholics) are not alone in this Muslims have too, also the American Church with its 'prosperity teachers'are just as guilty.So perhaps it is some consolation to know that there`s others just as bad as the Catholic hierarchy and those who promote its heretical doctrines in God`s eyes.
God takes very seriously those who lead HIS' sheep'astray.

5 June 2011 07:18  
Blogger len said...

Dodo,
Who interprets scripture?

"Howbeit when he the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all truth: for he shall not
speak from himself, but what things soever he shall hear: these shall he speak; and he shall declare
unto you the things that are to come. (John 16:13)."

Without the guidance of the Holy Spirit one will get into ALL sorts of errors and misunderstandings.

When one relies on a human agency that I believe is when things can go VERY wrong.

The next verse assumes that you are born again, if you are not born again this of course will not apply;


1 John 2:27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

5 June 2011 07:31  
Blogger len said...

Dodo,
Why NOT read the Bible for yourself and ask the Holy Spirit to help you interpret any thing you don`t understand.?
I think the Catholic Church are scares that you might discover that you don`t really need them and that is why they discourage you from doing this.

5 June 2011 07:40  
Blogger len said...

(scared, must use my new keyboard.)

Anyway Dodo,Give it a go, trust the Holy Spirit to lead you into all Truth as Jesus promises .You do believe Jesus........don`t you?

May God bless you and give you the courage to embark on the journey of discovery of Biblical Truth with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

5 June 2011 07:45  
Blogger Mr Dodo said...

len

On your own would you have arrived at an understanding of the Trinity and the hypostatic union of Christ? So many individual 'interpretations' of this are possible from the bible.

Are you telling me you never consider the views of other theologians?

Most Christians churches believe in Apostolic leadership, they disagree on the primacy of the Pope. They agree on the teaching and dogmatic authority of Church loeadership.

The section of scripture you cited was Christ's promise to the Apostles, not to individuals. It preceded His commission to St Peter and the Apostles to forgive and retain sin and to 'loose' and 'bind' on earth on behalf of God while they awaited His return.

How do you 'interpret' this commission?

5 June 2011 12:07  
Blogger len said...

Dodo, With the greatest respect,I really cannot go through all that again.
Look through the old posts.

5 June 2011 13:06  
Blogger Wandering Pilgrim said...

Lakester91

Actually it does make you statment less true. you said that without Cromwell there would never have been Irish Terrorism which has been shown to be false as there was Irish terrorism prior to Cromwell's birth.

If it was a massacre of oppressive English (mostly women and children) then why were there no massacres from 1169 against the oppressive rulers (who ruled from England)? Or prior to that under the Scottish invaders (of Hibernia) or the Scotia who straddled the Kingdom of Dalriada? Why Oh Why did these massacres only start against the settling English (as well as Scottish) after the reformation?

Was the sealing of the doors in Kilmore Parish near Portadown and the subsequent burning of protestant men, women and children by Roman Catholics an act against oppressive England and Scotland? Or just naked sectarianism?

What about when 100-300 protestant men, women and children were forced by Roman Catholics from their parish church in Loughgall marched to a bridge over the Bann, forcibly stripped naked and then forced to jump of the bridge and into icy water. Where most drowned due to exposure but other who tried to swim were shot as they tried to survive? English oppression? Don't make me laugh!

Lakester 91 what worries me as a man born and raised and still living in Northern Ireland is that an Englishman such as your self is so adamant to tell me how everything is your fault. Like an ex girlfriend that wants to be friends. Do you believe that Irish terrorists will stop attacking protestant homes if you admit to them it was all your fault? Maybe instead of giving propaganda victories to terrorists and their supporters you could simply support the rule of law and the right to life for all people... rather than trying to excuse murder and terrorism.

5 June 2011 14:40  
Blogger Mr Dodo said...

len said...
"Dodo, With the greatest respect,I really cannot go through all that again.
Look through the old posts."

You always side-step the issues and never answer this particular point. It directly contradicts 'solar scriptura' and perhaps that's why. You throw mud at the Church because of its human history but fail to address the scriptural foundations of its authority.

5 June 2011 14:49  
Blogger Lakester91 said...

Mr Pilgrim,

The problems occurred after the reformation because it is then that the anti-Catholic persecution started. Perhaps you are right that there might still have been Irish terrorism without Cromwell, but the fact that he is such a contentious issue that he is untouchable to the Protestants and evil incarnate to the Catholics shows his importance in the situation. The anti-Catholic land and ownership laws brought during his premiership are a massive cause of the issues that resonate today.

I'm not trying to justify terrorism or hate or violence, I am just giving valid reasons for its inception. It doesn't even mitigate the troubles, but it shows that (at least) we should view Cromwell as a great military leader with a nasty oppressive streak, rather than a polar good/evil.

5 June 2011 15:28  
Blogger English Viking said...

Dodo,

Do you have to practice at being this much of a nob-end, or does it come naturally?

5 June 2011 18:45  
Blogger Mr Dodo said...

Viki said ... (to himself)

"Do you have to practice at being this much of a nob-end, or does it come naturally?"

I'm sure it's second nature to you by now Viki. A deeply ingrained habit that can be broken with resolute determination.

Poor soul. Talking to oneself is the first sign of madness. I'm sure a long rest will help you. Then try to put your old ways behind you.

6 June 2011 01:25  

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