Tuesday, October 11, 2011

The Archbishop of Canterbury shames our politicians


From the Vatican, Robert Mugabe receives the Eucharist. From the Archbishop of Canterbury, he receives a dossier of outrages and abuses he has perpetrated against Anglican dioceses over the past four years, which include ‘false imprisonment, violence, denial of access to churches, schools, clinics and mission stations’ at the behest of the excommunicated bishop Nolbert Kunonga. Anglican leaders who refuse to submit to Mr Kunonga’s authority say they have been subjected to death threats, spied on by state agents and blocked from worshiping in their churches or burying the dead in Anglican cemeteries.

Canon Bruce Saunders (Southwark Cathedral) wrote a few months ago:
'We are beyond fear’ was the answer an Anglican bishop in Zimbabwe gave me ten years ago when I asked him how he and his people were coping with the relentless intimidation from the Zimbabwean Government, police and security forces. Since then the situation has dramatically deteriorated. Intimidation has become physical violence. Threats have turned into beatings, rape and murder. The people’s trust in the forces of law and order has been blatantly abused by repeated acts of injustice, and as the Bishop of Harare has said recently, ‘When the justice system and the police are themselves corrupt, who can we turn to for justice?’

Anglican Church leaders continue to receive death threats, and believers are subject to violent harassment when they attempt to meet for worship. Churches, schools and mission hospitals are invaded and appropriated for the greater glory of Mugabe.

...With the forces of law and order complicit in the persecution, with no financial resources to mount a legal challenge in the courts, and with the West having largely lost interest in the intractable Zimbabwean situation, the Church in Zimbabwe can only wait and suffer until the close personal relationship between Mugabe and Kunonga comes to a natural end.
Robert Mugabe is not only deranged; he is evil. Opposition MDC supporters are routinely seized and subjected to terrible tortures, like having boiling plastic poured on their backs, their extremities burnt, or being nearly drowned in water tubs. And we are not talking of the death and torture of a few hundred; but the systematic persecution and slaughter of hundreds of thousands. It is reminiscent of the ethnic cleansing in Sudan: Anglicans and the MDC are seen to be in league with each other, and so both are ‘crawling maggots’ which must be eradicated. There is global protest against lesser crimes in Palestine: we leap to intervene against bloodshed in Libya. But the whole world is seemingly indifferent to Zimbabwe, and this leaves Mugabe confident, emboldened, omnipotent.

What fellowship can light have with darkness? The Archbishop of Canterbury is using his moral authority to persuade Mugabe to desist and repent. He denounces the injustices and demands change. It may not work, of course, but merely by visiting the land and speaking out, he manifests humanitarian conviction and moral fibre. He shames our politicians and eclipses other church leaders as he confronts face-to-face that which is largely ignored by the African Union, the British Government, the US, the EU and the UN. Indeed, the British Government have been at pains to distance themselves from the Archbishop’s mission, stressing that he is making the visit in a pastoral capacity rather than a political one. A Foreign Office spokesman said: "He is not a representative of the Government and his proposed meeting with Mugabe in no way reflects a change of Government policy."

No change in policy? What a damning admission that is. While HM Government and other world leaders turn a blind eye and abandon Zimbabwe's Anglicans, Dr Williams denounces the tyrant and injects a brief candle of light into the darkness; he instils a little hope in the pervasive despair.

Mugabe and Kunonga pretend this is a battle against homosexuality, and so they assert a legitimate theo-political schism. Significantly (and in an indirect warning to David Cameron), Dr Williams’ dossier includes the line: ‘We also totally reject the misrepresentation of our church as not holding to the Church’s traditional teaching on marriage. This is wholly untrue.’ So, no support for ‘gay marriage’ from the Established Church, then.

But noting the lack of solidarity and support from some quarters, the dossier concludes: ‘Our appeal to the Christian community in Zimbabwe is that all should stand up for justice, that all should speak out against the unlawful arrests of our people, the beatings and tear-gassing of our congregations, the disruptions of church services, the flouting of Court Orders and partisan behaviour of the police and now the disturbing developments beginning to unfold.’

There is strength in numbers, power in unity, influence in univocity. If only evil could be excommunicated.

132 Comments:

Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

His Grace says

"There is strength in numbers, power in unity, influence in univocity. If only evil could be excommunicated."

Indeed, Your Grace, summed up as being with 'one voice', as Ernst keeps banging on about loudly and not in silent diplomacy to others.
Let the differences that cannot be resolved stand quietly on the sidelines so as not to be allowed to curdle the milk of human kindnes to our fellow man.

Bless you and well spoken.

Ernst S Blofeld

11 October 2011 10:33  
Blogger Flossie said...

Erm - perhaps the Abp would have more 'moral authority' if he hadn't ostensibly given credence to homosexuality in the Church by supporting his homosexual friend Jeffrey John for a bishopric, and by failing to take action against the renegade churches in the USA and Canada. One cannot blame people for thinking that the Church of England supports homosexuality. It has handed this regime a very useful tool.

Still, it takes a brave man to tackle the monster Mugabe, and credit where credit is due.

11 October 2011 10:41  
Blogger Arden Forester said...

Your photo of the two of them sitting there suggests the archbishop might be wondering where the former altar boy went wrong. And Mugabe's just wondering!

11 October 2011 10:59  
Blogger The Gray Monk said...

Flossie, you misrepresent and misinterpret the Church's stand on homosexuality. You are evidently among those who regard it as a "lifestyle choice" rather than the medical condition it is. The Church at least recognises that some people are "differently oriented" and does not reject them - but it does not condone the acts of sexuality this state engenders, though it recognises that to demand total abstinence is also potentially unreasonable for those not in Ministry.

The Rev John was and is a fine pastoral priest. In fact I doubt anyone would even have known his sexual orientation had the godless media not chosen to make an issue of it. The Bible does not condemn those who are different, it does condemn certain acts which may follow from that difference.

The Archbishop of Canterbury deserves our unreserved support. He does not, as so many seem to think, exercise any "Papal" Authority over the various parts of the Anglican Communion, his position is no more than that of a "first among equals" as senior Provincial Primate in the Anglican Communion. He cannot order the Americans to do or not do something, though the likes of the Archbishop of Sydney and the media always try to force Canterbury and the other Provincials into that position.

The Anglican Church is governed by its Synods and the Bishops act within that governance - except in parts of Africa where various megalomanics have managed to gain positions of authority and now hurl abuse at their more Godly and more reasonable and frequently better educated brothers.

Mugabe is a monster and he is surrounded by men of evil, many of them as monstrous as himself. This was known when Lord Carrington handed over the reigns of power to him and was proved within months when his "Fifth Brigade began ethnic cleansing of the Ndebele homeland.

Instead of constantly attempting to drag the "Gay" question (Interesting, many militant "Gays" attack the Church and the Archbishop for being "Anti-Gay" - yet then accuse the Church and the Archbishop of being "un-Biblical" because he allows some Gay men and women to be priests even though they choose to be celibate!) into every debate on "morality and ethics" and the "Church."

+Rowan is a man of deep faith, deep conviction and strong moral vision. He is doing a job I doubt any of his detractors could do half as well and it is not one to be envied.

What is more he puts the entire coterie of the godless in the House on the other side of the Thames to shame! He certainly has my prayers for this mission, he will need them. No one can enter the presence of such evil without feeling tainted and +Rowan will need a long time to recover spiritually from this encounter.

11 October 2011 11:12  
Blogger Flossie said...

No, Gray Monk, I misunderstand nothing. I’m afraid Rowan has ‘form’. As well as being the author of ‘The Body’s Grace’ (about which I am sure you know) he was a founding member of Affirming Catholicism in the UK – an organisation set up to promote the roles of women and homosexuals in the church – dubbed by traditionalists at the time as ‘girls at your altars, boys in your beds’. One only has to look at the track records of his co-founders of this movement – Richard Holloway and Frank Griswold, as well as Jeffery John. Unfortunately Affirming Catholicism’s website has now been expunged of all material referring to homosexuality, so I cannot back this up with a link, but it used to be chock full of pro-gay propaganda. I have been tracking this stuff for years.

Whatever Rowan may say now about the teaching of the Church, he cannot escape this history, and it will continue to be used against him. Affirming Catholicism gave birth to Inclusive Church, another organization supporting ordination into the threefold ministry ‘regardless of gender or sexual orientation’.

11 October 2011 12:07  
Blogger The Judicious Hooker said...

Your Grace and communicants

As the ABC's ministry draws to a close, he finally shows the chutzpa of his Master!

We shall wait a long time for the bishop of Rome to take action over Mugabe.

Was Hitler ever excommunicated? Pinochet or a thousand other RC tyrants and human rights abusers?

It takes a lot to get thrown out of the club of Rome but I have heard that one can excommunicate oneself through support of the ordination of women.

I wonder who ordained Phoebe, Deacon at Cenchreae, of New Testament fame, and whether the excommunication works backwards in time to reduce the whole RC edifice into ruins by its own canonical logic!

No doubt YG's Romanist communicants will enlighten us...

11 October 2011 12:45  
Blogger The Gray Monk said...

If what you refer to as 'form,' Flossie, is a reference to his attempts to make the church as inclusive as the Gospels command, then I think you have missed the point. I come from the "Catholic" wing of the Anglican tradition and now live in Germany where, for a variety of reasons I have joined an Old Catholic (NOT a ROMAN Catholic) congregation.

As a Licensed Minister I am also well aware of the "Affirming Catholicism" movement and Jeffrey John's involvement. From memory the references to homosexuality were always fairly low key and hardly "promotional." Christ calls us all to be inclusive and to accept others and their state - not to pass judgement. I find it very interesting and rather sad that all the good work this current Archbishop of Canterbury has done is swept aside by fulminations such as Flossie's about his "promotion" of homosexuality or his support for the ordination of women and their perfectly logical elevation to the Bishoprics. It is equally interesting that the two ends of the Anglican church who are most vociferous about this are the Ultra Catholic wing who are more Roman than the Romans and the Ultra Protestant "Evangelicals" who can't see the message for the words.

Once again I point to the fact that on the one hand the Church (And the Archbishop) is accused of being "Anti-Gay" and on the other of being "too inclusive." +Rowan (whom I once had the honour of Chaplaining for a major service!) is a man who thinks long and deeply before uttering anything on a subject. No, I don't agree with everything he and other bishops have said or done, but I do respect the fact that most have considered and prayed about it for some time before making any statement.

11 October 2011 14:16  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

@The Judicious Hooker; I suspect that the lack of a Roman Catholic excommunication of Mugabe arises from the likely damage this would do to Catholics in Zimbabwe. No doubt His Holiness would indeed like to excommunicate Mugabe, but is perhaps held back from doing so by the knowledge that any such condemnation made from the comfort and safety of the Vatican would result in harm to those on the ground.

The excommunication of Kunonga was carried out not by the Archbishop of Canterbury, but by the Anglican Church in Zimbabwe. There was consequently no issue of a well-meaning outside authority endangering Anglicans: the church took the danger on itself. If ever an excommunication is forthcoming from the Roman Catholic Church, then I would wager a year's wages that it will likewise be issued by the local authorities.

---

As for Phoebe, just as the fact of Peter's marriage does not impinge upon the celibacy of the modern priesthood, the existence of ordained women in the early church does not necessitate their presence in the modern church.

That said, personally I'm inclined to agree with what I suspect is your view that women are called by the Holy Spirit to serve as priests and ministers, not least because I have benefitted from the spiritual guidance of several excellent women ministers. I still resist the urge to force my views on communities that do not share them. I think it is to the Catholic church a loss that they do not ordain married or female priests, but if the two are to be stumbling blocks to their collective faith, I would rather they maintain their conviction in our shared belief in Christ.

11 October 2011 14:30  
Blogger Flossie said...

With respect, Gray Monk, I think it is you who has missed the point. Whatever you might think about Rowan Williams (and it is obvious that you and I have very different ideas on what Affirming Catholicism and Inclusive Church are all about) Africans do not trust him. This was very much in evidence at the last Lambeth Conference when 200 or so bishops did not turn up because of his stance on homosexuality. If he was so keen on upholding the teaching of the Church he could have made a clear stand then, which might have had the effect of holding the Communion together. He has had ample opportunity to do so since but has not.

The result has been that the disobedient US and Canadian Anglicans are now turning out Godly priests and people from their parishes and seizing the property bought and maintained by their antecedents.

Mugabe might be evil, but he is not stupid. One would have to be pretty dumb to not see what is happening, and draw conclusions.

By the way, I am neither evangelical nor ultra-catholic, but I take exception to your portrayal of them. ‘Inclusive’ does not – and never did – mean inclusive of behaviour the Bible describes as sinful. (This is neither the time or place to enter into the nature/nurture debate on homosexuality, but I would just add that I have frequent and regular contact with men and women who regard themselves as ex-gay, and with the ministries which support them, so do not be imagining that I know nothing about the subject.)

11 October 2011 16:42  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Mr Cranmer said ....

"From the Vatican, Robert Mugabe receives the Eucharist. From the Archbishop of Canterbury, he receives a dossier of outrages and abuses ..."

Was it really necessary to juxtapose these very different situations in this emotive manner?

Let's just consider the reasons the Vatican has not excommunicated Magabe. Why inflame a madman and cause more danger to Christians in Africa?

The Archbishop of Canterbury recognised the delicasy of passing judgement on the man. When sked if Mugabe struck him as a Christian man, the Archbishop observed:

"I could answer it on the basis of what I've read about him, or I could answer it on the basis of this afternoon, and this afternoon I've not much to go on except what he said. On the basis of what I've read about him, 'Blessed are the peacemakers' is the obvious thing to say about him."

This was all covered back in May and here we go again.

"“The Vatican is a Church; on what grounds can it ban someone from coming to Mass? It is perfectly true it could place Mugabe under interdict for his many sins and misdemeanours, but if you start with Mugabe, where would you finish?"
(Fr Alexander Lucie-Smith)

The Catholic Church is supporting Anglicans in Zimbawe as the Archbishop acknowledged.

“We express our thanks to our brothers and sisters from other
churches that have supported us as we seek to communicate these facts... We would like sincerely to thank various denominations including the Roman Catholic Church,
Methodist Church in Zimbabwe, United Methodist Church, Lutheran Church, Reformed
Church, Presbyterian Church, United Church of Christ and Mugodhi Church and others, who
have generously allowed some of our congregations to use their church buildings.”


Do let's keep denominational differences out of this.

11 October 2011 18:01  
Blogger ENGLISHMAN said...

After years of playing both sides of the street,how can he expect to be treated as credible now?still it gave mad bob a laugh ,he thought ridiculous rowan was going to apologise for the crusades again.

11 October 2011 18:26  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mr Judicious Hooker,

It appears you were right...

Mr Dodo,

The Archbishop of Canterbury thanked the Roman Catholic Church specifically for their generosity in permitting Anglicans to use their buildings. This is supportive indeed, and deeply appreciated. But His Grace repeats the Archbishop's final plea:

‘Our appeal to the Christian community in Zimbabwe is that all should stand up for justice, that all should speak out against the unlawful arrests of our people, the beatings and tear-gassing of our congregations, the disruptions of church services, the flouting of Court Orders and partisan behaviour of the police and now the disturbing developments beginning to unfold.’

Are you able to read between the lines of that desperate cry? Or perhaps you will insist that the Holy See is frantically operating through diplomatic means behind the scenes.

11 October 2011 18:31  
Blogger len said...

Well, YG your article says it all.

The Vatican by its attitude condones evil (as it has done so often in the past.Hitler remained a Catholic and as far as I know was NEVER excommunicated)

The Archbishop of Canterbury has great courage in condemning evil and confronting it .

Says it all to me.

11 October 2011 19:21  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Interesting comments from both sides about how we should challenge megalomaniacs. It is a difficult area but nevertheless, I find it surprising that Mugabe was able to attend the funeral of John Paul II. It does appear that some strings were pulled and that is to be regretted. We often think that we are being clever by being diplomatic whereas we are basically being bullied. I’ve never been much impressed by Rowan Williams but well done to him on this.

11 October 2011 19:24  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Mr Cranmer

Like you, I have no idea what the Vatican might or might not be doing. I pray it is doing all that it possibly can in whatever way it deems best. However, I doubt it is acting "frantically - not the Roman Catholic way. Prayful, careful, considered and measured is the Vatican's way in the 21st Century.

I do know the Catholic Church in Zimbabwe has consistently spoken out against Magabe's regime and the injustice in the country. Indeed, the Catholic Church has been one of the most important forces in Zimbabwean society, with a history of being more supportive of the liberation struggle than many other churches.

The Catholic Bishop's Conference has repeatedly criticised the absence of democracy in the country and the hypocracy and sinfulness of the State.

As an example:

"They are all baptised, sit and pray and sing together in the same church, take part in the same celebration of the Eucharist and partake of the same Body and Blood of Christ. While the next day, outside the church, a few steps away, Christian State Agents, policemen and soldiers assault and beat peaceful, unarmed demonstrators and torture detainees."

In fact, after the corrupt elections in 2000, the Roman Catholic Church’s Archbishop of Bulawayo, Msg. Pius Ncube emerged as the country’s leading democracy advocate.

Mugabe has demanded in the past the “Africanisation” of Christianity in Zimbabwe, calling upon the nation’s churches to break free from foreign overlords -including Canterbury and Rome. Why give him an excuse to break the unity of the Catholic Church for what would be political motives to weaken opposition to him?

Once again, with elections coming next year, a delicate situation and one has to be cautious about giving this evil madman any excuse for further repression.

11 October 2011 19:32  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Your Grace

Excellent news on the Mugabe situation. The church one would hope, is forever. Mugabe isn’t and 2013 has been pencilled in as the year of his longed for last breath.

Lots of killing to come, no doubt, in his wake, but hopefully a fresh renewal for the church. Here’s hoping the British government as the former colonial power will spare some resources to ensure the succession is to Zimbabwe and the UK’s satisfaction.

11 October 2011 19:40  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

len

I agree the Archbishop of Canterbury did well in confronting Mugabe. He was restrained in his overt attack on the President. Read his comments. He's not politically naive.

But, oh dear, you're over the place again, aren't you?

I thought you were against organised 'religion' and a 'priesthood' officiating at services, performing rituals and claiming authority!

Do be consistent. Or are you just an opportunist who has a go when ever he can?

11 October 2011 19:41  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo

Disappointing news on the Len situation, He is indeed a self serving opportunist...

11 October 2011 19:49  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Inspector

I'm afraid he's lost it completely! Did you read his ridiculous comment on Hitler.

Mental note to self:
Write to Vatican and ask them to formally excommunicate Hitler.

11 October 2011 20:06  
Blogger David B said...

Two things

First, whilst dealing with someone like Mugabe is always delicate, I do worry that pictures like the one posted by His Grace might serve to legitimise his (Mugabe's) rule.

Secondly, while an atheist like me deplores the oppression of Christians in states like Zimbabwe as much as anyone else, they are far from the only people being oppressed there, as far as I have gathered from credible news sources.

That there is no mention of other victims of oppression is something which, IMV, is to be deplored.

David B

11 October 2011 20:12  
Blogger David B said...

I should have made clear that this is not a complaint against His Grace, who does in fact mention the oppression of people on grounds other than Christianity, but I see no sign of it from the Archibishop or the Canon quoted.

David B

11 October 2011 20:16  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

While Rowan Williams deserves praise for his forthright stand against someone who is clearly evil whatever moral compass you may use, perhaps we should realise that the impact of pointing this out to Mugabe is likely to be pretty limited. Since the most effective way of moving Mugabe is likely to be pressure from the South African government - perhaps more results might be obtained from RW directing some of his fire towards the South African churches and Government.

11 October 2011 20:46  
Blogger Atlas shrugged said...

Dear Mr Dodo.

I have read much information that strongly suggests that Mugabe was, and still is a Jesuit Priest, educated in a Jesuit school, by Jesuits, and still doing the work of his Jesuit masters within The Vatican.

I have no way of knowing for absolute sure whether or not this information is true or not. However the evidence would seem to be compelling to say the least.

Are you still sure that you are batting for the correct team. I mean REALLY sure?

Did not your God have something to say on the subject of murder. For I feel sure that God intended this particular commandment to include those who support or aid institutions that promote same, ever more so the genocidal form.

If would seem that The Vatican does not like Christians or Christianity very much. Indeed it would seem that the worlds most exalted representative of The Roman Empire has spent much time and fortune, trying to eradicate Christianity, as well as true Christians from the entire planet, over a very long period of time.

I do not know how many hungry Lions there are in Zimbabwe, however I feel sure that Mugaba considers that there is nowhere near enough of them.

11 October 2011 22:03  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Mr Cranmer asked ..

‘Our appeal to the Christian community in Zimbabwe is that all should stand up for justice, that all should speak out against the unlawful arrests of our people, the beatings and tear-gassing of our congregations, the disruptions of church services, the flouting of Court Orders and partisan behaviour of the police and now the disturbing developments beginning to unfold.’

"Are you able to read between the lines of that desperate cry? Or perhaps you will insist that the Holy See is frantically operating through diplomatic means behind the scenes."

Why read between the lines? Surely it is a clear, direct plea to those in the seperated Anglican community to stop following the renegade Bishop Nolbert Kunonga, and the whole corrupt, vicious Mugabe regime?

As shown earlier the local Catholic Church has always been a fierce critic of Magabe. In my opinion, this message was not a coded message to Rome. It was a clear message to all Zibabwean Christians and to those serving the regime who call themselves such.

11 October 2011 22:24  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Atlas

"I have no way of knowing for absolute sure whether or not this information is true or not.

Enough said really! You've presented NO evidence for this fanciful idea. In fact, I'd call it a delusional idea.

Do you have any clue at all about the internal politics of Zimbabwe and the role of the Catholic Church in promoting democratic freedom?

11 October 2011 22:29  
Blogger Atlas shrugged said...

Your Grace.

Have you ever considered that you are screaming in the wilderness?

If so, then welcome to the club.

Your last two posts could not be of a more serious content, OK they could, but not by much.

Yet do you note any reaction from the mass media, intended to in any way bring these matters to their proper place within the human collective consciousness?

I would be surprised if you did.

Therefore please try to ask yourself the serious question, as to WHY, hardly anyone in a position to make any kind of difference seems to give a damn?

Have we simply become conditioned to see genocide as some kind of norm. No more important to ourselves then the price of our rail fares, or pint of milk; still less important then the rocky fortunes of England's Rugby team, or the minor inconvenience of Roony's sending off?

I am not way suggesting that we should invade Zimbabwe, or send The SAS out to help dissuade Mugabe and his thugs, however it is more then clear that almost infinitely more could be done, than is being done by all kinds of governments and international institutions, no less The RCC, EU and UN.

The RCC is many things, IMO obsoletely none of them good, however this more then well established institution is as rich, powerful and influential today as it has ever been. The RCC still professes to have the interests of common humanity at heart, therefore what possible excuse could The Vatican have?

It clearly has NONE, neither does it even bother trying to come up with one.

I can clearly state with much confidence, that if either The Vatican, The EU, or The UN did not want Mugabe to be doing what he is doing, he would not be doing it. It really is that clear cut.

11 October 2011 22:31  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Atlas

Trust me, he's not, nor has he ever been, a member of the Society of Jesus. And I do know about these things - ask Oswin.

11 October 2011 22:33  
Blogger Atlas shrugged said...

Trust me, he's not, nor has he ever been, a member of the Society of Jesus. And I do know about these things - ask Oswin.

It is not for me to furnish you with evidence, it is up to YOU to do so, in order to prove me wrong. By doing so you will/may find out that I am correct.

My job is to make you think, not lead you to water that I know you will undoubtedly refuse to drink.

There are many books on this subject written by many serious scholars, all of which claim to be highly committed Bible believing Christians. Perhaps you think these people are liars. Perhaps you are right. If so then what do you have to fear? Your job is to find out who they are, and then read the evidence they submit to you.

If by then you persist in the belief that Mugabe is not an agent of The Vatican, then so be it. At least you will have done the work required in order to have an opinion worth having.

To my knowledge there is no such thing as a list of official or otherwise Jesuit agents, at least not a openly published one. Therefore I fail to understand how you can be so confident without doing your own research into the reported life of Mr Mugabe.

Yes, it is true I have not personally been following this particular tyrant around Africa for the last 70 odd years, nor have I been a fly on the wall during his frequent covert visits to Rome.

However some people have done some very serious research into this particular individual, as well as extensively painstaking research into the inner workings of The Vatican, perhaps it is well past time you read some of their work?

BTW these people have received many threats to their lives, but so far no one has attempted to sue any of them in a court of law. Which is at least interesting, would you not agree?

11 October 2011 22:59  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Atlas said ...

"It is not for me to furnish you with evidence, it is up to YOU to do so, in order to prove me wrong."

The scientific method according to Professor Atlas. Give no evidence and invite someone to prove you wrong.

Name your sources. You have put forward a hypothesis for consideration and it is customary to support this with evidence.

How can I disprove a thesis that you have not supplied facts to substantiate? Without doing so, you are no more than a charletan and you and your 'theory' will be treated with the contempt it deserves.

11 October 2011 23:20  
Blogger Angel Falese said...

Sir I like the angle you have taken!, using homosexuality these days is like using Gold to bait the pauper. Its the 'in thing', the vogue, supporting the view points of homosexuals will get you a higher ranking, most especially if you are in politics, music or any high rank post. God forbid you say anything slightly in disagreement with their views, you become a bigot, uncivilized, intolerant and most likely stripped of your titles if you are in the public eye.

Even though the gay population is less than 10% of the nation, they have become a force or terror to reckon with, abide with me or get lost. You are either for us or against us George Bush policy is now everywhere.

Christians are 10 a dime, killed en masse, lynched,humiliated and publicly targeted to be ridiculed.

I noticed that as soon as you mention homosexuals all ears pricked up, red banners, AK47 all out, shoot at site.

What a sad society we live in now, where black is now white and you dare not object or be lynched.

Who will stand for the persecuted Christians all around the world, thank God Jesus is on the throne our constant intercessor. One thing I know is, the truth is always the truth, no matter what!
Angel
www.MyAngel.org.uk

11 October 2011 23:24  
Blogger Oswin said...

Atlas: well I don't know about Dodo (but I suspect!) but I do know that the evil ZANU bastard, Mugabe, was subject to much Jesuit influence.

12 October 2011 00:24  
Blogger Atlas shrugged said...

OK Dodo you asked for it, so now you are going to get it.

However I will take it as read that you intend to obtain a copy of this very thick volume, and read it from cover to cover, otherwise you will only serve to show that you have refused to drink the water, as I predicted you would.

May I suggest amazon.com?

One of the reasons why I am reticent in recommending this particular book, is because the last time I did so His Grace judged it reason to sensor my entire comment.

However at the risk of the same happening again, here it is.

Vatican Assassins, by Eric John Phelps, although there are several more to my knowledge on this subject, and I am sure there exists many others that are not.

This life times work is most likely the fullest researched history of The Jesuit Orders ever written. However I warn you, you are not going to like one tiny little bit of it, indeed it will undoubtedly cast serious doubt on every detail of your 'chosen' religious institution.

It gives great detail, masses of very real and incontrovertible evidence, including many pictures, well documented statements, highly informative diagrams, and is over 500 pages long. It traces all the way back to Ignatius Loyola himself, all the way up to almost the present day.

Indeed as you have been more then a little condescending. I directly challenge you to READ IT, if you dare.

I think you misunderstand my true motives for not giving you proper direction. Believe me, I have not so far done so, for your best interests, not my own.

I was told not to attempt to destroy a person religious faith, unless I intended to replace it with something better. I have nothing better, unless The Truth decides to become a religion, any time soon.

12 October 2011 01:06  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Atlas Shrugged

I directly challenge you to READ IT, if you dare.

A reference to a book isn't even the beginning of proof. If you are going to publicly accuse Mugabe of being a 'Vatican agent' then you need to provide some tangible evidence. The mere fact someone wrote a book doesn't qualify.

There is a published book out there called the 'Pink Swastika' that purports to prove that the leadership of the Third Reich was a cabal of homosexuals. I have heard earnest experts talk earnestly about this very earnest work of history, and yet it seemed like complete nonsense to me. So I went and found a copy online. I read the chapter 'proving' Hitler's homosexuality. The 'proof' consisted of stuff like someone once knew someone else who said Hitler shared a room with another man when he was trying to be an art student. It was (as predicted) historical nonsense as anyone who knows anything about Nazi ideology would have realized from the beginning. But it most definitely was an earnest book.

As it stands, the assertion that Mugabe is a Romanist Agent doing the nefarious bidding of the Pope is ridiculous on its face. Unless you have some offer of proof, there is no reason for anyone to waste any time reading a book that would otherwise seem to rank right up there in credibility with the 'Pink Swastika' .

carl
renowned 'anti-Catholic'

12 October 2011 01:53  
Blogger len said...

Did any Fascist leader rise to power by a popular wave in a non-Catholic nation who had broken away from the Pope of Rome? The nations who defeated Fascism were Christian nations that had left the Roman Catholic Church during the Reformation, or stayed outside of Papal control. First and foremost United Kingdom, United States, Canada and Australia. Not to forget in union with Communist Russia, who was assaulted by their Nazi-allies in the summer of 1941.

If these nations had remained inside the Papal system: Could these nations ever have been able to defeat Fascism?

World control in a 'Holy Roman Empire» has always been the dream of 'Pontifex Maximus», the Pope in Rome.

(Don`t take my word for it study the history.)

12 October 2011 07:45  
Blogger Jon said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

12 October 2011 10:23  
Blogger Jon said...

Mugabe appears to me to be a vain old man. He likes his Savile Row suits, his cups of tea and any semblance of statemanship which the fading threads of his office can provide. Travelling to the Vatican, tea with the Archbishop - it all helps to persuade his followers that he is a proper world leader. At least Rowan Williams has used this audience to berate the man.

Cranmer has documented some of Mugabe's awful crimes clearly and in a way so upsetting as to be redacted from mainstream media coverage, and yet you argue about catholic this and anglican that? You are armchair warriors in a war without consequence.

Meanwhile, Anglicans, MDC members, and ordinary citizens of Zimbabwe are dying. If ex-commucation from the Catholic church in any way deters this evil man from his actions, what possible justification could the Church have for not taking this course of action? Can you honestly see Jesus of Nazareth breaking bread with this man without angrily denouncing his actions, at the very, very least? You aren't just serving him bread, you believe you are serving him the body of your saviour, and his blood to wash away this man's mountain of sin. What is the Catholic church for exactly?

I am reminded of the cartoon lawn sign which simply says "do not throw stones at this sign". It appears to have been elevated to religious imperative.

12 October 2011 10:26  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

All quiet on the western front it seems?

Ernst had hoped that His Grace was going to take to task Mr Fox for debasing his office but Ernst still awaits any mention for the old boy.

That he maybe good at his job is something to mention however that he has betrayed his office is the moot point.

Ernst always gets annoyed when pastors or church leaders have their immoral acts brought into the light, they plead guilt or poor judgment blurring their lines of guidance yet cling on for dear life.

Ernst believes that people as such, once they have committed the act should graciously stand down and either remain in the congregation or look elsewhere to attend if this offends their pride.

Ernst has known people who were disciplined at work or dismissed who laid claim to such defences but as Ernst pointed out whilst still as their manager 'It is not that you are not good at your job which is the problem but your breech of your contract of employment knowingly for gain or indefenceable incompetence that endangers the company!

Ernst is still able to remember that when MP's offended they hastily resigned or the PM called them in to 'Alan Sugarlike' say 'You're Fired'. They had some semblance of honour and duty still..It is a privilege given to you to serve your public who have nominated you..and you even get PAID!!!!

Ernst is especially angry as Fox has given Labour something to pontificate about whereas he hoped not to hear anything from that cabal until near 2014/15.

An Annoyed Ernst!

12 October 2011 10:35  
Blogger bluedog said...

An excellent initiative by Rowan Cantuar, Your Grace. He is to be congratulated on his courage in tackling this evil man. Compared to the wildy extravagant sumptuousness of Mugabe's own palazzo, the dictator's office looks quite spartan.

Anglicans can allow themselves satisfaction, but not pride, that their Primate has acted effectively in the face of appeasement in other quarters.

Now if John Sentamu follows Rowan Williams as Primate, round two of the Anglican Church versus Robert Mugabe will be a sell-out event.

12 October 2011 10:36  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Oops

Should read 'indefenceable incompetence towards others by your behaviour that you are charged with that endangers the company!'

Ernst 'must go to specsavers' Blofeld

or is that the problem?

12 October 2011 10:48  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

Williams' "bravery" contrasts with his craven behaviour when he visited Pakistan where the Christian community of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is discriminated against, persecuted tortured, murdered and raped.

Could this have anything to do with the fact that the Zimbabwean community in the UK are largely exiles & therefore supportive of him whereas the Pakistani community would burn down his empty churches?

12 October 2011 11:55  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

@len

Did any Fascist leader rise to power by a popular wave in a non-Catholic nation who had broken away from the Pope of Rome?

How about starting with Germany itself. Per the 1939 census 54 percent of the population was Protestant and 40 per cent were Catholic. Much as I recognise the the failures of the Catholic Church, even I don't think that that the charge sheet against them is as one sided as len and others would like to make out. There were and are many brave Catholics who make a stance against Hitler, Mugabe and other totalitarians and such a simplistic account is just totally wrong. And no I have no intention of entering into a long standing debate in support of the Roman Catholic church.

12 October 2011 12:47  
Blogger Jimbo said...

Your Grace, why are you complaining. You and Nolbert Kunonga are kindred spirits. Both are renegade Bishops who stole Church property.

And as for excommunicating Mugabe, did the excommunication of Henry VIII help matters, or did the excommunication of Elizabeth I help matters?

12 October 2011 15:32  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

I’m glad I’m not a diplomatic. I don’t think I would be able to do any better than Rowan Williams. It is a nightmare trying to sort out what is the most productive policy in the face of barbarous regimes. I do not imagine Williams would take the same approach with China and I wouldn’t suggest that he should on the basis that it might make matters worse. Peter tells us in the Bible that we have to pray for our leaders, even the brutal ones and rely on His providence. As an example, around the 1770s or 80s in Scotland it was clear to the Catholic hierarchy that the Stewart dynasty was not coming back so a meeting was held at Scalan in the Braes of Glenlivet to discuss whether they should continue to say prayers for the rightful King or for the King in London and they decided to change and say prayers for the Protestant King rather than the Stuarts.

12 October 2011 17:43  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

It seems to be difficult to get across the fact that there a popes, bishops, priests and nuns and brothers who are currently rotting in hell for their sins and rueing the day when they put worldly pleasure before their duty to Christ. (By the way, the same applies to Protestants and would have applied to King David if he had not truly repented of the murder of Uriah the Hittite.) However the interesting thing is that even apostate popes have not been able to change the teaching as has been done by other dispensations for example in the case of divorce, abortion or just playing with yourself.

12 October 2011 18:03  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

len asked a rather daft question ...

"If these nations had remained inside the Papal system: Could these nations ever have been able to defeat Fascism?"

If these nations had remained within the Church of Rome, would Nazism have arisen in the first place? Would Communism have arisen?

Get real len you really are being absurd!

12 October 2011 18:09  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len Don`t take my word for it study the history. (12 October 2011 07:45)

You’ve got that right, the Inspector isn’t going to take your word on anything. It appers that your take on history is as selective as your take on Christianity.

Do you really know how states feared the onset of communism in the nineteen twenties, especially those near to the expansionist Soviet Union, not to mention revolutionary communist parties at home. Do you really know the relief that fascism was greeted with by those states as an antidote to godless communism. And then the great depression, capitalism apparently finished, do you really know what it was like to rely on fascism to get you through…

12 October 2011 18:41  
Blogger len said...

Tory Boys, The level of ties between Nazism and the Protestant churches has been a contentious issue for decades. One difficulty is that Protestantism includes a vast number of religious bodies many of whom had little relation to each other. Added to that, Protestantism tends to allow more variation among individual congregations than Catholicism or Eastern Orthodox Christianity, which makes statements about "official positions" of denominations problematic. Still, many Protestant organisations or denominations were solidly opposed to Nazism after the nature of the movement was better understood. Many Protestants including Rev. Martin Niemöller, who was imprisoned in 1937, were charged with "misuse of the pulpit to vilify the State and the Party and attack the authority of the Government." resisted and some even died because of their efforts. The forms or offshoots of Protestantism that advocated pacificism, anti-nationalism, or racial equality tended to oppose the Nazi state in the strongest terms. Prominent Protestant, or Protestant offshoot, groups known for their efforts against Nazism include the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Confessing Church. Many of their members died in the camps or struggled fiercely against the Nazis.(Thanks to good old Wikipedia)

Many if not most of the Protestant Churches were Lutheran who were strongly anti-semitic(probably a hangover from Luther`s Catholic past)This of course tied in with Hitler`s anti- semitism.

12 October 2011 19:04  
Blogger len said...

I see tweedle dee and tweedle dum are still in action never cease to give me a laugh.

Soooooo predictable!.

12 October 2011 19:06  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len WITHOUT PREJUDICE

Does the Inspector detect a desire to become Mr Blofeld’s lackey ? Peter Lorre would be so proud of of you...

12 October 2011 19:40  
Blogger len said...

Ha!.
Glimmerings of humour?.

You also are showing your age.

Of all the blog`s in the World you haver to choose this one.Play it again Sam.

12 October 2011 19:50  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

len said ...

Many if not most of the Protestant Churches were Lutheran who were strongly anti-semitic(probably a hangover from Luther`s Catholic past)

Now I know you've totally lost it!

(Touch with reality that is.)

How can anybody take anything that comes out of your mouth seriously?

12 October 2011 20:08  
Blogger tory boys never grow up said...

len

Pastor Niemoller made no secret that he originally supported Nazis when they came to power. The fact is that Hitler came to power that was predominantly not Catholic - hence answering the question you proposed.

There is no doubt that many Germans of differnt churches, religions and non of differing political persuasions opposed Hitler and paid the ultimate price. Perhaps you should also remember the words of Niemollers most famous qoutation and understand that that you should not be too choosy in picking your allies when it comes in standing up to oppression from whatever quarter.

12 October 2011 20:24  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Atlas

'Vatican Assassins' by Eric John Phelps.

Yep, busted! Eric Phelps, the Iaraeli diamond dealer, has blown the plot wide open.

Since the dawn of time, even before the order was instituted, evil Jesuits have pursued the agenda of world domination.

Is the honourable blogger Archbishop Cranmer really a Jesuit using a cunning double bluff? Appearing to be critical of Rome whilst all the time building support for it? Dastardly dangerous these Jesuits, don't you know.

Is len really a plant whose task it is to make Protestantism so absurd as to send folks back in droves to Rome> And Ernsty is his mission to cause one to believe being outside of Rome's leads to insanity?

You've seen through the order with the able assistance of this well researched, objective and highly credible piece of fine writing.

12 October 2011 20:26  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo

Well done that feisty bird, the Inspector tends to skip through Len’s dribble these days, and he missed the latest slur...

12 October 2011 20:27  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo

Tis a full moon tonight so don’t expect a reply from Atlas wept soon. From the Inspector (AKA ‘Prior General’), old chap.

12 October 2011 20:38  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

tory boy said ...

(tolen

"Perhaps you should also remember the words of Niemollers most famous qoutation.

In case you've forgotton, it was made in 1935, here it is:

"What is the reason for [their] obvious punishment, which has lasted for thousands of years? Dear brethren, the reason is easily given: the Jews brought the Christ of God to the cross!"

Not an authoritative Catholic theological position although it was the view of Luther who regarded the Jews as somewhat less than human.

12 October 2011 20:40  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Inspector

Lest we forget:

Twelve Jesuit priests have been formally recognized by Yad Vashem, the Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority in Jerusalem, for risking their lives to save Jews during the Holocaust of World War II:

Roger Braun (1910–1981) of France; Pierre Chaillet (1900–1972) of France;
Jean-Baptist De Coster (1896–1968) of Belgium;
Jean Fleury (1905–1982) of France; Emile Gessler (1891–1958) of Belgium;
Jean-Baptiste Janssens (1889–1964) of Belgium;
Alphonse Lambrette (1884–1970) of Belgium;
Emile Planckaert (b. 1906) of France;
Jacob Raile (1894–1949) of Hungary;
Henri Revol (1904–1992) of France; Adam Sztark (1907–1942) of Poland; Henri Van Oostayen (1906–1945) of Belgium.

A plaque commemorating 152 Jesuit priests who gave of their lives during the Holocaust was installed at Rockhurst University, a Jesuit university, in Kansas City, Missouri, United States, in April 2007, the first such plaque in the world.

May they rest in peace and let perpetual light shine upon them.

12 October 2011 20:51  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

It has always frustrated me that in discoursing with some people there are two words that end the argument i.e. ‘Jesuits’ and ‘inquisition’. At least they are intended to end the argument as if it was self evident that these two words contain all that is necessary to convince everyone that the Catholic Church is the epitome of evil. Thanks to Dodo for turning the conspiracy around. But really what have they all got against the Jesuits? You get the quote about a Jesuit saying that give me a child of 6 and I will tell you what he will be like when he is an adult or something to that effect – I don’t remember the quote exactly. Big deal – others have said similar things but when a Jesuit says it we can claim indoctrination and after all we want to believe that about the Catholic Church so we won’t let the argument go further and discuss the real heroic lives of Jesuits like St Edmund Campion who displayed extraordinary courage in the face of the most brutal torture. It seems that the one thing that excites their animosity is the fact that the Jesuits took an oath of obedience to the Pope and that to some must be the greatest evil.

12 October 2011 20:58  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Yes, I'm sure they do in fact rest in peace and may they pray for us now that they are closer to the throne of glory.

12 October 2011 21:01  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo

It should also be remembered that fascism, once the golden boy, descended into evil – let Europe or anywhere else be aware of this should it ever manifest itself again. A bit like Endowment mortgages and debt “insurance”.

12 October 2011 21:11  
Blogger len said...

Dodo,
It is commendable that some Catholic Priests stood for the Jews during the Holocaust.

However the Vatican`s collaboration with the Nazis is well documented.

12 October 2011 21:43  
Blogger len said...

Since you mention the Jesuits;
The Spanish dictator, Franco, published and article following Hitler's death. It said, "Adolf Hitler, son of the Catholic Church, died while defending Christianity." It goes on to say, "Over his mortal remains stands his victorious moral figure. With the palm of the martyr, God gives Hitler the laurels of Victory."

Hitler himself stated, "I learned much from the Order of the Jesuits. Until now, there has never been anything more grandiose, on the earth, than the hierarchical organization of the Catholic church. I transferred much of this organization into my own party."

Walter Schellenberg, former chief of Nazi counter-espionage made this statement: "The S.S. organization had been constituted by Himmler according to the principles of the Jesuit Order. Their regulations and the Spiritual Exercises prescribed by Ignatius of Loyola were the model Himmler tried to copy exactly. Himmler's title as supreme chief of the S.S. was to be the equivalent of the Jesuits' 'General' and the whole structure was a close imitation of the Catholic Church's hierarchical order."

12 October 2011 21:47  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

OoIG stated his knowledge of one of Ernst's favourite films by sleight of comment.

Ernst needs no lackey. Decrepid but still able to look after meself, TA very much!

Ernst takes it that you are a fan of Arsenic and Old Lace?

Further presume that 'yours truly' in Jonathon Brewster played by Raymond Massey and Len is Dr Einstein, Jonathon's personal plastic surgeon, altering his features to help him avoid capture as he is wanted for mass murder (RC's, perhaps?)

Ernst presumes then you must be Cary Grant's uncle Teddy Brewster, who believes he is Theodore Roosevelt, is busy digging the panama canal beneath the basement and dresses as the ex president and storms around the house with cutlass in hand shouting CHARGE?

Hmm. He was eventually sent to Happy Dale, a caring asylum for the deluded and deranged, for his own safety and more importantly, for others!

Sounds very plausible in your case, my lad. Don't forget to take Dodo with you, there's a kind fellow, he believes himself a bird that has been extinct since approx 1681! *chuckling like a serial killer*

Ernsty 'The Film Buff' Blofeld, Well I was in quite a few as portrayed by different actors, was I not and I am still parodied, even to the present.

12 October 2011 21:56  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Ernst my elderly friend.

Merely thinking about you in your dotage. Do find a use for the young idiot Len will you, even if it’s only emptying your catheter bag.

Pip pip old chap, be seeing you...

12 October 2011 22:26  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Len

ps

Tribunal of the Holy Office of the Inquisition, be aware!

an aside to Len in hushed tones "Don't mention the inquisition, Len. Ernst mentioned it once on the blog, but he thinks he got away with it."

Ernst Turns back to the comments page;

"So OoIG, Dodo, Shacklefree and David Lindsay, it's all forgotten now and let's hear no more about it.
So that's two egg Benedict XVI, a prawn Isabella, a nice bowl of steaming hot Auto de Fé and four Torquemada salads....no, wait a minute...I got confused because everyone keeps mentioning the inquisition.!

You chaps mentioned it first!

Here, who's this then.

Ernst puts a long black hoodie on and raises the hood over his head and starts speaking in latin the decree "Ad abolendum" against the heretics and finishes with the blessed saying of Lord Torquemada
'There are those amongst our Ordo who say that I seek advancement for my own purposes, and they are correct. My purpose is to destroy the daemonic and if I must rise to command an entire sector to do so, then so be it. I am a servant of the Emperor and only those who consort with Warp-spawn need fear my ambition' using the inflection of actor Ian McDiarmid as Emperor Palpatine, for menacing effect.

Uuuh!

Nerts Feldblo, chaps

"be seeing you... Not if Ernst sees you first!"

12 October 2011 22:44  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

A spectacle fit for a king was laid before Ernst eyes and ears as Ernst never thought he would see it happen..Paxman ass slapped on Newsnight.

May Ernst suggest that anyone with BBC Iplayer watch Paxman slapped like a wicked, sneaky, duplicitious little sinner courtesy of Pastor Jefferies of Baptist Ministries Dallas!

Paxman tried to trick him into saying bad things about Mitt Romney and mormonism.
Jefferies merely stated it's history, book of Mormon and that it has never adhered itself to mainstream christianity, seeing itself as The true church as the Apostles were wrong and did not convey the true message, so Joseph Smith had to do it.

Paxman asked if a Mormon, Jew, Muslim, Atheist (thought he was going to say Jedi at one stage, he was that desperate for a contradictory reply) could be President (usual BBC non discriminatory/equality rubbish line, unless you are christian of course, then that's different). Of course, said minister but it's up to individuals in America to vote for who they want as President. Talk to Jesus, Paxman, you are a sinner too, he implied him.
Paxman utterly non plussed!

Wonderful, truly wonderful.

"Sir David Attenborough, Andrew Marr, Ricky Gervais, Stephen Fry, Christopher Hitchen, A C Grayling, Poly Toynbee.

Richard Dawkin, can you hear me? Richard Dawkin your boy took a hell of a beating! Your boy took one hell of a beating!"

*Giggling and Chuckling as Ernst stirs his horlicks*

It tickles old Ernsty greatly.

12 October 2011 23:55  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

len

You've been reading those crazy websites again, haven't you? This time 'The Secret History of the Jesuits' is it? Hitler didn't really write Mein Kampf, now did he? It was a Jesuit!

Jesuits have infiltrated and penetrated every sector of public life ... yah, de dah ...

Desperate to find 'evidence' against the Jesuits and the Vatican?

Poor deluded soul that you are.

Are you seriously suggesting that by imposing an imitated loyalty and discipline of priests and by copying some of aspects of the formal structures of the Catholic Church, Facism is a Catholic off-shoot?

You, my friend, need to consider the sanity of your position. Do stop reading all this nonsense; you're becoming insufferable.

12 October 2011 23:59  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Ernsty

Do stop encouraging the poor deluded len. It is dangerous to reinforce the delusions of another and give them credibility.

Is Paxman a secret Jesuit?

13 October 2011 00:04  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Len, If you want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, don't ask the traitors like Franco or Hitler. Go to the catechism. You are very determined to search out evidence which suits your arguments. Remember what Jesus said to the Jews who said that his power came from Beelzebub.

13 October 2011 00:35  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Dodo babbled something but Ernst needs further clarification from the poor dickie?

"Do stop encouraging the poor deluded len. It is dangerous to reinforce the delusions of another and give them credibility." He speaks what he wants, nothing to do with Ernst as Ernst would NOT have taken that line of reasoning with Hitler but if you and others so wish Ernst can elaborate on a more declared compliance for vatican's blind eye towards Hitler and why All types (not everyone as individuals) of germans hate Jews whether Catholic, Lutheran or simply Wagnerian!
Bit like why all statutes and Images of Jesus and Mary are blonde/fair haired, light skinned. Not really hamite or semite are they, lad!
Arayianism is arrived at by the view that the Aryans originated in ancient Germany or Scandinavia, or at least that in those countries the original Aryan ethnicity had been preserved. The German origin of the Aryans was especially promoted by the archaeologist Gustaf Kossinna, who claimed that the Proto-Indo-European peoples were identical to the Corded Ware culture of Neolithic Germany. This idea was widely circulated in both intellectual and popular culture by the early twentieth century, and is reflected in the concept of "Corded-Nordics" in Carleton S. Coon's 1939 book - The Races of Europe.

Not so simple as Len states but Ernst can assist if you so require?

Is Paxman a secret Jesuit?"

Ernst knows it's late but have you been at the sacramental wine, oh, for goodness sake. DILUTE!

How on earth would Ernst know. Or are you implying that as Ernst never mentioned Roman Catholic in comments about/from Paxman's lips, Ernst is a religious bigot.

Read history, bird. Take it John F Kennedy was rabid presbyterian then? Why no RC was mentioned, Dickie. They have been the President of USA!
Further 2 presidents were Quakers, (Herbert Hoover and Richard Nixon )
Episcopalian and Presbyterian were the most common religions amongst the presidents. In fact, about 1/2 of the presidents were of these two religions.

You really are the frank spencer of Catholicism *chortle*
Go to bed and get a good nights NEST!

Ernsty 'some mother do ave em, do they not' Blofeld

13 October 2011 00:36  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

"Shacklefree said tongue in cheek, perhaps ? @13 October 2011 00:35

"Len, If you want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, don't ask the traitors like Franco or Hitler. Go to the catechism. You are very determined to search out evidence which suits your arguments. Remember what Jesus said to the Jews who said that his power came from Beelzebub."

However If you want to know how the Catholic Church LIVES out that teaching, Do read the History of The Popes!

"Remember what Jesus said to the Jews who said that his power came from Beelzebub."
Wonder where Leo X's and other popes power came from then, to stick like a limpet to that catechism?
It's even nicer when those christlike people, who create the catechism, live by it, is it not?

Out of the mouths of babes, indeed!

'beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam, acta non verba'

Ernst 'Pointing Out those inconvenient salient facts' Blofeld

13 October 2011 00:55  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Ernsty

Heaven's to Murgatroyd! Are you disagreeing with your 'born again' buddy?

According tolen's favoured historians J F Kennedy, apparently a Knight of St Columbus, was murdered by the Jesuits!

By the way, not all statues of Christ and the Madonna are white. How many churches have youbeen in recently? Please do not attempt to associate Catholicism with the perversion of Aryanism.

len

You do know one of your historic gurus is a self declared 'white seperatist' don't you?

13 October 2011 01:32  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Dodo blustered ,outraged at Rome's offended pride.

"By the way, not all statues of Christ and the Madonna are white. " Suppose if I travelled to Catholic Churches in Africa or South America, as Ernst has (Kenya and Mexico) they are allowed to resemble the locals, yes but that's not exactly where the vatican and cistine chapel are, is it!. How is this better? But were not Jesus and His Mother hamite (Jewish, not African or Latin American and most definitely not Nordic-ish!
Appearances of statues to resemble locals was granted by Rome, as part of the Counter Reformation, to keep the natives happy!
Do read some history, lad.
Diarmaid MacCulloch even had a TV Series called A History of Christianity, showing this very thing!
It's time consuming correcting you!

Below a definition of the term 'ignoratio elenchi', a red herring Indeed!
"You do know one of your historic gurus is a self declared 'white seperatist' don't you?"

They are YOUR CHURCH'S STATUES, Dickie Bird, not Ernst's, or did the Church of Rome only have a limited colour palette to choose from?

Take it you think Len is blind also?

Ernst 'nil admirari' Blofeld

13 October 2011 02:41  
Blogger len said...

It is quite interesting and VERY enlightening to see the Ecclesiastical gyrations and gymnastics(jumping through hoops)of the 'all singing and dancing' Dodo and the 'gyrating General'.It would be hilarious if it was not so sad.
Trying(and failing) to draw a cloak of respectability over their chosen religion(Catholicism).
rather like those who proclaimed their king(Pope) was clothed when in fact he stand naked for all the World(except those who have 'bought into Catholicism) )to see.

I see the deluded Dodo and and his sidekick frantically brushing whitewash over the exposed areas (revealed by shining the light on the corruption bodies lying in the tombs of Catholicism)before anyone notices(they think)

Islam and Catholicism have this thing(many more but I use this one point for illustration)which is a threat of death(Physical or spiritual) if they even consider leaving their'religion'.

So the 'bold brave' general and the deluded Dodo(still tilting at windmills) stand trembling in their boots afraid to face the truth.


Jesus said the Truth would set you free,God`s Word IS Truth and IF you search the scriptures (and acknowledge the truth contained within) Catholicism will be exposed for exactly what it is ,in the words of Spurgeon ' a load of old rubbish dumped upon the Truth.'

13 October 2011 07:47  
Blogger len said...

I am beginning to wonder if the dynamic duo (the general and Dodo) are in fact undercover agents, protestants in deep disguise.

Their whole purpose being to bring to light all that is wrong with Catholicism and bring it into the light so it can be examined.

Keep it up boys and watch out for the Jesuits (I don`t think they are on to you yet!.

13 October 2011 07:55  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

len

It's good to see some fighting spirit old boy. Well done! Don't over excite yourself though. One day at a time; one day at a time.

I was driving across the River Lune today and, quite by accident, thought of you. Suddenly your thesis about the early church made sense. Simon Magnus, a forfeit christian, impersonated St Peter and coned the early church into establishing a diabolic pagan system to entrap souls and for his own personal gain.

For 300 years he and his cunning successors manipulated church teaching and rituals to their own and satan's ends. Nobody noticed. Not the early Apostles or disciples. They escaped the attention of the Church Fathers too. Clever men with awesome powers and ability to deceive indeed.

They canonised today's scripture, devised the first Apostles Creed, established churchs all over the known world and spread Christ's messeage. And all for themselves.

Then finally, when the time was right, they united with secular Rome and, hey presto, world rule beckoned. Since then, they have worked away in the shadows, them and their ever present agents, to build their empire awaiting satan's return.

Credible? Me, I prefer David Icke's account of shape shifting reptilian extra-terrestrials aboard their motherships waiting the time of full invasion. This has as much if not more, plausibility.

Good story though. Have you thought of writing a film script?

13 October 2011 16:08  
Blogger len said...

Dodo ,
a revelation at last!.

And partly right.

The apostles DID notice what Simon Magus was up to though( you got that bit wrong)

The great false church system of Rome had its beginning in the day of the apostles of Christ. Unfortunately, this conflict did not go its separate way but mixed in to one religious system. This is why there are so many pagan ideas and doctrines in the Roman Catholic Church. Some crept in over time but many were there from the very beginning. The first conflict between early Christianity and false religion of paganism was recorded in the book of Acts, Chapter 8. This quarrel happened between a pagan high priest named Simon Magus and the apostles Peter and Philip. We first hear of Simon Magus in Acts Chapter 8, verse 9-25
(Continued)

13 October 2011 17:25  
Blogger len said...

(Continued)Acts Chapter 8 Verse9: 'But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used
Sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God,
and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: And when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs, which were done.
14 ¶ Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the
Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: Only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was
given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the
Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: For thy heart is not right in the sight of
God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine
heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and [in] the bond of iniquity.
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things
which ye have spoken come upon me.
25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.'

What happened in these sixteen verses? Was this just a one-time event that took place or something that Luke decided to document? The confrontation that took place here, in Jerusalem, not long after the death and resurrection of Jesus, can be easily overlooked as just one of those things that may have been relevant to the time. But what really happens here? The incident that took place between Simon Magus and the apostles sets the stage of many of the epistles of the New Testament and the early entrance of apostasy into the early church. The person that is mentioned and that we need to concentrate on is Simon Magus and how he transformed himself into the first leader of the false world wide religious system, the Catholic Church.

13 October 2011 17:29  
Blogger Oswin said...

Over to you Dodo. :o)

I did think to mention that point Len, but didn't want to steal your thunder.

It is interesting to note, that the 'Church' did eventually split from the its earlier Hermetical association - something of a double whammy really. In its attempt to distance itself, it discarded science (the alchemical magus) and effectively buggered itself for several centuries.

13 October 2011 17:51  
Blogger len said...

(continued)And how did Simon Magus transform himself into Simon Peter?.

Notice Genesis 41:8. Davidson shows in his Hebrew Lexicon that the consonantal word P-T-R (PETER) signifies "to interpret" or "interpretation" (p. 638; of Brown, Driver, Briggs, p. 837; and Gesenius, p. 877 and p. 843). Bryant points out that "the term always related to oracle interpretation" (p. 308).

The pagan priests of the mystery religions were called PATORS or PETERS. They had the power to interpret the heathen mysteries. This is further brought out by Bunson in his Hieroglyph, page 545, where he shows that the Egyptians -- as the Bible also indicates -- called their "interpreters" or priests: PETR, that is, PETER.The term PETER was one of the earliest names for the pagan gods. It lasted as late as Greek and Roman times. But by that time the term also took on a widespread secular meaning. It came generally to mean "father" or "parent." But this was not its primary meaning at all. Bryant continues: "The word PATER, when used in the religious addresses of the Greeks and Romans, meant NOT, as is supposed, a father or parent; but related to the divine influence of the Deity, called by the people of the East, PATOR" (Ibid., p. 353).

Now, Who is the 'interpreter' of Scripture(the Peter) in the Catholic Church?.

13 October 2011 17:57  
Blogger len said...

(continued) on last thought, St Peters tomb has been discovered in Jerusalem.The bones of Simon Bar Jona (St. Peter) were found in Jerusalem, on the Franciscan monastery site called, "Dominus Flevit" (where Jesus was supposed to have wept over Jerusalem), on the Mount of Olives.

so guess who`s bones lay in the tomb in Rome......no prizes for guessing right.

13 October 2011 18:02  
Blogger Oswin said...

I forgot!

My point being (to both Len and Dodo): had the Church been indeed the church of Simon Magus; then were it not better that they had remained so?

Having got it wrong the first time around, they then throw the baby out, with the bath water!

Dodo: consider the thought that Jesuits might indeed be some form of Gnostic stormtroopers! :o)

Relax, the chronology, if nowt else, is on your side.

I'm enjoying this wee depature into the esoteric!

13 October 2011 18:05  
Blogger Oswin said...

Tut! Should read: ''...then were it not better, had it remained so?''

13 October 2011 18:11  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

len

Amidst reams of irrelevancies provided us with the latest instalment of "The Fantastic Stories of Simon the Sorcerer"

What he overlooked is that the Church Fathers, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Hippolytus, and Epiphanius all regarded Simon the Magician as the source of all heresies. The problem you have is that these men were writing from within the Universal Church.

Be a bit like shooting oneself in the foot now wouldn't it?

St Peter's tomb in Jerusalem?

Where did you dig up that remarkable piece of evidence? Surely not the neutral History Channel and their well researched programme "The Naked Archaeologist"? I guess there was only ever one man named Shimon Bar Yonah living in those times. Afterall they were rare names at the time.

Tell me, do you spend your life scouring around trying to prove Rome is wrong. Sounds to me like you feel somewhat insecure in your faith if you're desperate enough to cling onto such rumours and speculations.

13 October 2011 19:44  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

13 October 2011 19:54  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

There is no salvation except through Len’s version of Christianity sayeth Len...

Len. The Catholic Church doesn’t rely on who was one man be he Pope or Deacon, except for our Lord Jesus

13 October 2011 20:08  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Blofeld dear fellow,

Delighted to see you’re a film buff. The Inspector’s era is anything from the Jazz Singer to the mid sixties,then selective from there on in. That’s when the self indulgent, often arty, rot started. As for some of the mindless violence of recent decades, the less spoken of the better. His preferred medium is monochrome, and the early colour tryouts. Don’t you just decry the lack of films on TV from before 1939 – a very poor show, literally.

You wisely declined from adopting Len, so it’s up to the Inspector. He intends to wash his mouth out with carbolic, then worm him to get as much crap out of his system as possible.

All for God, Queen and Empire, you understand…

13 October 2011 21:55  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Inspectoe

Although fallen into disrepute in some quarters as a form of therapy these days, I would recommend a short short course of ECT for len. It helps clear the mind and for the deluded allows reality an opportunity to break through.

Ps
I think it may have been invented by a Jesuit too.

13 October 2011 22:24  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Inspector

Apologies for spelling your name wrong, Sir.

13 October 2011 22:25  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo

ECT – now there’s a thing. The Inspector worked with a chap who had undergone that. (Harsh times, the early 1960s, and the man a national serviceman too). It actually worked and he looked forward, if looking forward is the right term, for his scheduled treatment. Fortunately, the tricyclics became available in the mid 1960s, but a chap like you in your career would know that.

13 October 2011 22:37  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Inspector

I doubt tricyclics or the more recent selective serotonin reputake inhibitors would be effective in len's circumstances.

No, I doubt he is clinically depressed. It's just his ideas are so depressing and repetitive. More deluded, I'd say, with indications of paranoia and grandiosity.

Some form of mood stabiliser might prove effective but in my opinion before trying this ECT should be commenced as his head has to be cleared of all these strange ideas.

ECT can be very effective in such situations as it causes short-term memory loss and generally scrambles the mind. It helps too where people have a persecution complex meeting a need for punitive intervention. Whilst used sparingly today, I believe it might be helpful here.

I know an excellent Jesuit pychiatrist who I could refer him onto for a more in depth diagnosis.

14 October 2011 00:15  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

OIG said "There is no salvation except through Len’s version of Christianity sayeth Len..." I can't get my head around this. Hundreds of Old Testament prophesies point to Jesus as the Messiah who tells us he will be with us for all time and he sends the Holy Spirit to guide us and within a few short years it has fallen into ruin and now after 2000years its only Len's little crew who have any hope of reward. I'd say that's pretty bad planning.

14 October 2011 00:39  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

OoIG declared manly like

"All for God, Queen and Empire, you understand…"

OI, thought you said you were RC?

Benny will NOT be pleased and you may find yourself recalled to Rome for a little re-educating. lad, Possibly passed on to Georgetown University Hospital.
They have a special wing for this sort of lapse, The Isabella Regina de Cordoba wing with the blessed Ignatius Ward, for the 'hard of hearing'.It has an extensive range of surgical accessories to help get that soul back in order, pronto. 100% success rate claimed via living patients or 50% off Purgatory in indulgence vouchers, courtesy of the CEO in Rome, if some mishap during the 'heretical extraction' process should occur?.

Enjoy the flight!

Ernst

Ps

Take Shacklefree as a bed buddy, he appears to believe that onlycatholics have a sat nav, even if it does go from hell, purgatory route 666 and finally stopping at Pearly gates, Heaven. I hear the air is braceworthy this time of year.
Was going to say 'Give Ernst's regards to..' However no primate exists for Catholics in the United States. AAAAAAhhhhhh!

14 October 2011 12:01  
Blogger Oswin said...

Dodo @ 00:15:

A ''Jesuit pychiatrist'' by God!

Clearly a devious plan to subvert the minds of dyslexic Protestants eh?

(forgive me Dodo, just a wee bit of opportunistic whimsy, is all. :o)

14 October 2011 16:29  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Oswin said...

Dodo @ 00:15:

A ''Jesuit pychiatrist'' by God!

OOh dear Lord. Think he is referring to W.W. Meissner, the famous Jesuit psychiatrist, who wrote Ignatius of Loyola: The Psychology of a Saint (?, What).

The clue is in the title! Aaaaaaaaahhhhhhh Run for your LIFES!

Ernst 'hobbling as quick as Ernst can' Blofeld

14 October 2011 16:58  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Shacklefree (14 October 2011 00:39)

There is only one contributor (…if that’s the right word for him…) who consistently discredits himself when he posts. Yes, every time. Step forward that man Len. Come on now, don’t be shy - it’s you isn’t it. The Inspector presents his latest howler from the next thread… 14 October 2011 08:19

I have no doubt that the Pope thinks he IS God on Earth because those who deceive others end up being deceived themselves.

Rather a silly blogger aren’t you Len. Anyway, enough of this. Fetch your collar and lead, we’re off for a walk. We’ll visit Mr Blofeld and I don’t want you trying to hump his leg again, you deluded hound…

Dodo (14 October 2011 00:15)

Re proposed ECT treatment for Len. Go on then, you’ve talked the Inspector into it. Rather than use up scarce resources of the NHS, I think we’ll have a go at doing it ourselves. {INSPECTOR GOES TO COLLECT HIS JUMP LEADS]

14 October 2011 17:59  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Blofeld, you sly old dog. Fancy trying to get that past the Inspector. Yes man, an old scoundrels reasoning that if he’s RC, then he doesn’t owe allegiance to the Queen.

Hard luck – The Inspector counts himself as amongst the most loyal of her majesty’s subject’s. So, no problem there then...

Have marked your card “could do better” with “poor show” as a rider.

Cheerio for now, and don’t forget your annual jab – can’t have you being carried off by the flu, now can we...

It’s all for God, Queen and Empire, don’t you know...

14 October 2011 18:11  
Blogger len said...

Generalissimo, you seem to have lost your stuffed parrot/duck/ bird thing.
He`s normally very close behind.

Hope the Jesuits haven`t finally caught up with him.

14 October 2011 20:25  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Blimey - A talking dog !!!

14 October 2011 20:28  
Blogger len said...

Perhaps the generalissimo has consumed the luckless duck, very nice with a few fava beans and a bottle of Chianti.

After all he did spell your name wrong Inspectoe................ (snigger.)

14 October 2011 20:41  
Blogger len said...

Well that`s all for now Generallisimo,shacked -up and stuffed duck, sounds almost poetical,must be well past your bed time now, nurse will be coming round with your medication soon, sleep well and remember the doors ARE locked so don`t try to escape.

14 October 2011 20:45  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len are you 'Plymouth Bretheren' by any chance ??

14 October 2011 20:53  
Blogger len said...

OoIG

No.Just a humble follower of the Lord Jesus Christ.

15 October 2011 08:19  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Inspector

It is apparent that len has experience of the mental health service. He may be beyond medical assistance as there are clear indications of the onset of dementia.

One is now wondering whether his relatives should be approached with a view to obtaining Power of Attorney and Guardianship to secure his welfare. Failing that, the appropriate local authority may have to intervene.

His case is a lesson to all 'free thinking' protestants who play fast and loose with the bible. Being so filled with pride they believe they can independently achieve salvation outside the Church appointed by Christ.

15 October 2011 11:19  
Blogger len said...

The 'Way out Dodo ',

Your arguments 'are getting less coherent and more desperate as time progresses.
Having given up on 'theology'you now resort to personal attacks.

Well bring it on, you are merely making yourself look more foolish and the thin veneer of 'religion'you have assumed is starting to look a little 'tacky'as it unpeels.

15 October 2011 11:41  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

len said...

Generalissimo, you seem to have lost your stuffed parrot/duck/ bird thing.
He`s normally very close behind.
Hope the Jesuits haven`t finally caught up with him.


And this is theology?

Seriously, I am worried you have become so lost in all the deluded anti-catholic nonsense you have exposed yourself to that not only is your immortal soul in danger but your earthly sanity.

My position is as it always has been. Christ established His Church and endowed it with His priestly functions to teach in His name and to administer the sacraments He established. It is an Apostolic Church and His representative on earth, His vicar or deputy, the Pope, carries His authority.

Uncomplicated and biblical.

No wild fantasies about satantic infiltration or demonic magicians.
No parnoia about Jesuit agents secretly working to take over the world and having been pulling the strings of history.
No outrageous distortions of the words of saints and former Popes.

15 October 2011 12:36  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo

Hmmm. Attributing Len with independence of thought is going a bit over the top. More likely, he was either born into a protestant sect, or brought into one. These sects are particularly skilled in attracting the friendless, awkward and weak of mind. A description which suits Len admirably, sure you’ll agree. Anyway, he’s definitely taking orders...

As for his relatives, the Inspector imagines there’s plenty of eye rolling when Len’s name is mentioned. The Inspector presumes they’ve suffered enough. As Christians, we would ordinarily be concerned with his welfare, but in his case, there’s a curious lack of interest. Really can’t be bothered with him.

15 October 2011 12:52  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Inspector

Don't forget the Beatitudes. Jesus will not have given up on len and neither should we.

I agree it is a weary task responding to all of his lies about St Peter, the Papacy and the Catholic Church. How can he really believe the nonsense he posts or the damnable sources he cites?

Still, his errors do have to be addressed as and when he reveals them.

15 October 2011 14:54  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo

As Paul Daniels might say, “Jesus loves Len, but not a lot...

15 October 2011 17:43  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Inspector

Do remember He died for him.

Personally, I'm beginning to wonder if Ernsty, despite his 'cuddly' persona as the whiskey loving cat owner, isn't a more serious enemy of the Truth.

16 October 2011 01:01  
Blogger Gavin said...

After giving this a lot of thought over the past few days, I basically agree with what His Grace has posted here. +RW has acted and spoken admirably to that vile person Mugabe, and I agree, the RCC ought to adopt a similar line with him.
I don't buy all this "we can't stop Mugabe from attending a Mass/ visiting the Pope" line - people have been excommunicated for far less than the continual and hienous crimes that Mugabe has committed and shows no hint of repentance from. So let's not overcomplicate this: +RW has spoken well here.

16 October 2011 01:51  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Gavin

I assume you are not in a position requiring tact and diplomacy to save the lives of others!

Asposted days ago, even The Archbishop of Canterbury recognised the delicasy of passing direct judgement on the Mugabe. When asked if Mugabe struck him as a Christian man, the Archbishop observed:

"I could answer it on the basis of what I've read about him, or I could answer it on the basis of this afternoon, and this afternoon I've not much to go on except what he said. On the basis of what I've read about him, 'Blessed are the peacemakers' is the obvious thing to say about him."

Not a very clear attack on him and no doubt in exercising caution he had in mind the safety of other Anglicans in the country.

16 October 2011 02:15  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Dodo striving to find the correct word..

"Personally, I'm beginning to wonder if Ernsty, despite his 'cuddly' persona as the whiskey loving cat owner, isn't a more serious enemy of the Truth."


Validissimum is what you are grasping for, lad.

*Chuckle* Must Ernst always correct?

Ernst the enemy of Rome 'summa cum laude'

Ernst 'the humourous heretic' Blofeld * stroking cat menacingly, as only Ernst can*

16 October 2011 02:53  
Blogger len said...

All roads lead to Rome.

'When in Rome do as the Romans do,'(a popular saying)
Rome in Biblical terms represents the 'World'.Rome was ruled by the Caesar`s and their crown and their authority passed to the Popes.Caesar was seen as a'god 'and the popes assumed this title.


'You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.'(James 4;4)
Friendship with an adulterous religious system 'wedded' to the World makes one an enemy of God.

I would rather the Whole World hated me to gain God as a friend for 'What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?'(Matthew 16:26)

16 October 2011 09:14  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

len - so it's goodbye from me, and Ernsty it's goodbye from him!

Enjoy your delusions!

16 October 2011 15:18  
Blogger len said...

Dodo,

Don't go

I don't know where you come from
But you're everywhere I go (Ah yeah)
I don't know why you chose me (why me?)
But as long as your here, I don't need to know

So don't go

16 October 2011 19:21  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Since God identifies the two witnesses as "two olive trees",

Zechariah 4:11-14

11 Then I answered and said to him, "What are these two olive trees--at the right of the lampstand and at its left?"
12 And I further answered and said to him, "What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?"
13 Then he answered me and said, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord."
14 So he said, "These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth." Do we not!

Thanks for the analogy of a 'type'! and good night (not quite goodbye yet) from 'Him', also.

Ernst 'a witness of The Lord of Hosts' Blofeld

16 October 2011 22:19  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Ernsty

Such pride!

17 October 2011 00:09  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Dodo not understanding the reference?

"Such pride!"

What pride?
"Ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: but God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: that no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and redemption: that, according as it is written, 'He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.'" I Corinthians 1:26-31"
Further, the Christian must bear his witness. In love and in charity (and possibly a glint in the eye or pointed laugh at 'our earthly foolish wisdom'), as God gives him opportunity, he must be prepared to show men that they are sinners, and that their sinfulness is the source of their woes, both in mind and in body.
Yet it can never be enough merely to condemn another man's sins. The Christian also knows that in His sovereign grace Almighty God has provided a way of salvation through Jesus Christ. Therefore the Christian should always direct his testimony toward bringing men, one by one, to a living faith in Christ as the One who has paid the penalty for the believer's sins and nobody else (or you can work/earn a gift that is freely given by grace). Despite all possible ridicule and opposition, the Christian must ever bear witness to Christ, and to what He has done. Ernst tries his best.

Paul assures the Corinthian Christians, however, that if they indeed know Christ as their Savior and Lord, they ALSO have a call from God to tell others about Christ. The Apostle is not here writing his letter to a few select Corinthian leaders, such as the pastors and elders of the congregation. He is speaking to all of the believers in Christ, and pointing out that God has called each of them to bear witness. Even as the early Christians, when they were scattered abroad from Jerusalem, "went everywhere preaching the word" (Acts 8:4), so today witnessing is clearly the business of all those who are Christ's people. If indeed we know Christ as our Redeemer, it is our God-given responsibility, and our high privilege, to serve as His witnesses.
In the eyes of our world, we must continually remind ourselves that as Christians God has chosen us to be His witnesses, and that from the world's point of view we are silly, even moronic, in bearing testimony to such a simple Gospel. This is the high calling of every Christian. If this were all that the Apostle could say, however, his message would be disheartening. But he goes on to tell good news about our testimony for Christ.
Through the feeblest of the saints the Spirit of God brings to Christ as Savior and Lord those who have been His enemies. Through humble witness bearers He brings into the fullness of His love and grace those who once stood outside His Kingdom. Through feeble witnesses He has won the victory. "Thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ" (2 Cor. 2:14a).

Ernst and Len are in agreement hence the two witness type as we stand beside (in agreement with His Authority and statements) the Lord of the whole earth and His Word!

Pride never enters it, not only does God call pride an actual sin in His sight, but He goes one step further and calls it an actual abomination!
The greatest fall that has ever occurred coming from this one negative quality may end up being the story of how Satan fell from heaven.
"Though the Lord is on high, yet He regards the lowly; but the proud He knows from afar." (Psalm 138:6)

Pride Will Come Before the Fall.

Ernst 'exlains about witnessing' Blofeld

17 October 2011 00:42  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Ernsty

You compared yourself and len to the two annointed ones of the Lord!

"So he said, "These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth." Do we not!"


As I said, such pride.

17 October 2011 12:15  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Dodo re-iterated error.

"Ernst and Len are in agreement hence the two witness 'TYPE' as we stand beside (in agreement with His Authority and statements) the Lord of the whole earth and His Word!"

Some Symbols and Types found in The Bible you maybe unaware of as it appears to be an unread book to you!

Metals such as;
Gold
symbol of God
kingship
kingdom glory

Silver
redemption
the price of a soul

Brass, Copper, Bronze
symbol of sin
judgment of sin
disobedience

Iron
strength
inflexible rule
crushing

Tin
worthlessness
weakness

Lead
weight
heaviness of the heart

Brick
symbol of the work of men's hands
false worship

17 October 2011 14:50  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Some More Symbols and Types found in The Bible

Heavenly Bodies

Sun

symbol of life
glory
brightness
light

Moon

a light reflector
symbol of judgment and darkness
without God, lifeless

Stars

symbol of Abraham's heavenly seed
Spiritual Israel
ministers of the gospel
light bearers

Falling Stars

apostates

Day

measurement of time
children of light
New day (hope)

Night

spiritual darkness
wrath
judgment


Trees

Cedars
power, majesty
royalty
beauty

Hemlock
wormwood
injustice
symbol of calamity

Mulberry
symbol of a broken heart

Oak
strength
durability

Fig
symbol of Spiritual Israel, the church
fruitfulness

Palm
symbol of victory in Christ

Pine
symbol of fragrance and beauty

Pomegranate
symbol of abundance and joyfulness

Shittah, Acacia
beauty

Algum
symbol of Christ's humanity

Almond
symbol of Christ's resurrection

Willow
symbol of Christ's weeping and heartbreak

Myrtle
symbol of God's blessing

17 October 2011 14:51  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Finally

Some Additional Symbols

Anchor
safety, security, and hope

Ark
safety
Christ

Chaff
uselessness

Clay
symbol of frailness of the human flesh

Dust
humanity
contempt
human frailness

Egypt
symbol of worldliness
bondage
whoredoms

Field
symbol of the world

Fire
judgment
God's purifying and testing

Hail
divine judgment

Hammer
symbol of the Word of God

Horn
strength and power

Key
power to bind and loose
to lock and unlock

Lamp
symbol of the spirit of man
symbol of the Spirit of God
lamp of God

Leprosy
sin and death

Locust
destructive power of darkness

Mirrors (glass)
reflection of the Word of God in our lives

Mountain
symbol of kingdoms

Oil
Holy Spirit anointing

Sackcloth
mourning, sorrow
repentance
Salt
incorruptible life
preservation
covenant

Sand
symbol of multitudinous seed
earthly seed of Abraham
unsaved multitudes

Scepter
power, authority, and rulership

Sea
restless masses of humanity

Sickle
reaping
the Word of God

Stiff-necked
stubbornness
resistance to authority

Sweat
man's efforts and works

Tabernacle
man's temporal existence

Thorns and thistles
symbol of the curse

Whoredoms
spiritual idolatry
false doctrines

Wilderness
symbol of dry places without God

Yoke
servitude
slavery
fellowship

Ernst is always glad he can oblige you, Likkle Dickie

17 October 2011 14:53  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

King Ernsty

Don't attempt to cover your pride. Just withdraw the remark.

You compared yourself to an annointed one of the Lord. Now you and I both know what this stands for in biblical sybolism.

These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth."

In the bible the High Priest and the King are each sometimes called "the anointed" (Leviticus 4:3-5, 4:16; 6:20; Psalm 132:10). Prophets were also anointed with the Holy anointing oil.(1 Kings 19:16; 1 Chronicles 16:22; Psalm 105:15).

Christians believe the "anointed" one referred to in various biblical verses such as Psalm 2:2 and Daniel 9:25-26 is the Messiah.

As I said, pride!

17 October 2011 21:40  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Dodo, who is not anointed to witness for Christ, accused Ernst of pride rather than being anointed to witness as he shows

1 John 2:20
20 But ye have an unction (anointing) from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

1 John 2:27

27 But the anointing WHICH YE HAVE RECEIVED OF HIM abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22

21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Anointed-definition -Choose by or as if by divine intervention.

The anointing true believers have received, then, is the Holy Spirit.
How, then, is this anointing given by God and received by Believers?

A. The Wondrous Cross

1. The Holy Spirit is received by faith in the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross.
2. Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit would indwell His people.
3. It is only because of the cross that you have forgiveness of sins, and the privilege of the indwelling Spirit, not only in the believer, but upon the believer.

The Bible clearly teaches that all Christians have been anointed by the Holy Spirit.

There were many antichrists in the first century who were formerly faithful Christians but became apostates and were causing havoc in the church, teaching false religious doctrines contrary to the teachings of the apostles. False teachers who came from the bosom of the church were teaching false doctrines designed to lead faithful Christians astray. Our protection against all antichrists is the anointing we have received from the Holy Spirit that gives us complete knowledge of true religion.
Galatians 5:22-24 says, “The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control; against such there is no law. And they that are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and lusts thereof.” This is the only outward evidence we have that the Holy Spirit is dwelling in our lives.
They had inspired teachers among them who protected them against all antichrists We no longer have such inspired teachers in the world to day; today we receive the same blessing of divine knowledge and truth from the inspired writings of he New Testament. When we have an understanding of the New Testament, it can be said we know all things we are supposed to know about the Christian Faith. We can identify all antichrists by their rejection of any teachings in the New Testament. When we have an understanding of the New Testament, the word of God revealed by the inspired apostles, no antichrist teachers can deceive us. The Holy Spirit now anoints Christians not miraculously but naturally by the study of the 27 books of the New Testament. Christian cannot be anointed in any other way. Consider carefully what old Ernst says, bird and the Lord may give you understanding.

King Ernsty, eh..Ernst is, have you not read the words of your first pope? (1 Peter 2:5-9). *giggles to self*

Ernst 'earnest of the Spirit' Blofeld

18 October 2011 00:23  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

King and Prophet Ernsty

Okay, point well made and taken.

I still think you were a tad on the prideful side though using an OT passage that was clearly referring to 'annointing' of kings and prophets.

18 October 2011 14:31  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Dodo lad

Ernst could just as easily have quoted Mark 6

'7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two (2 this way and 2 that way); and gave them power over unclean spirits;
8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
10 And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent. '

The Lord Himself symbolised and laid forth His witnesses as in 'two'. See Two Witnesses of very high importance in Book of Revelation.

However Ernst loves the glorious 'types' symbolised and heavenly language used as expressive of how God Almighty refers to His Glory in the OT. It's that simple.

Pride is a terrible thing and is epitomised in Lucifer and his fall.

Ernst avoids it, as if it accompanied the very four horsemen of the Apocalypse themselves!

Ernst, my fine fowl.

18 October 2011 16:27  
Blogger len said...

I see Dodo got in wrong ,yet again.

Dodo not understanding being ' born again'or anything related ,puts everything he does not understand as being 'proud'or of a 'bigot.'

What Dodo and his accomplices do not understand is that pride has to be totally rejected by a true follower of Christ.There is no place for pride at all.
To admit there is nothing one can do to save oneself and there is no way to live the Christian life without Christ is the very opposite of pride!.

The Christian Life IS Christ, only He can live it and He does it through us!.

18 October 2011 19:50  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Ernsty

You surely know I'm teasing you.

len

Do change the record!

Once again you come in at the tail end of a discussion and throw your simplistic comment in.

19 October 2011 00:42  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Dodo winked wickedly at old Ernsty.

"Ernsty

You surely know I'm teasing you.
" Aye, lad.

However, what Ernst knows about you and you know of Ernst, others are unaware of, so Ernst explains his choice of verse and expression for others.

Ernst, lad :-)

19 October 2011 14:03  
Blogger len said...

Dodo, the Gospel is simple!.
You need help to misunderstand it.And you (obviously) have had plenty of help!

Simples!

22 October 2011 09:02  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

len

You need no help at all to misunderstand the bible. You're doing a grand job on your own.

22 October 2011 17:01  

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