Wednesday, December 07, 2011

Zimbabwe: Kunonga continues to persecute Anglicans

His Grace has drawn attention to Robert Mugabe's persecution of the Anglican Church in Zimbabwe on previous occasions. The dictator's henchmen harass all of the independent churches which are seen as hostile to Mugabe's government. While he singles out Roman Catholic bishops who have ‘a nauseating habit of unnecessarily attacking his person’, it is leaders of the Anglican Church who continue to face the most sustained pressure.

It was hoped that the visit of the Archbishop of Canterbury might have had some effect. Dr Williams provided Mugabe with a dossier of outrages and abuses he has perpetrated against Anglican dioceses over the past four years, which include ‘false imprisonment, violence, denial of access to churches, schools, clinics and mission stations’ at the behest of the excommunicated bishop Nolbert Kunonga. Anglican leaders who refused to submit to Mr Kunonga’s authority say they have been subjected to death threats, spied on by state agents and blocked from worshiping in their churches or burying the dead in Anglican cemeteries.

Nothing has changed.

Kunonga and his allies continue to harass believers and interrupt worship in the Anglican Diocese of Masvingo. His Grace has received the following epistle, which he hopes will exhort the faithful to prayer. Pray for those who suffer, that they might find courage and strength. Pray that they might find the peace that only God can bring. Pray that their faith will not fail, but that persecution might draw them closer to Him and increase their faith. Pray also for Robert Mugabe and Nolbert Kunonga - both professing Christians - that the Lord might blind them with a revelation of Himself, that their evil will cease.
Dear His Grace (The Most Revd. Archbishop A. Chama), Lord Bishops, Clergy in the Province, Partners within the Communion and The faithful. Greetings from the Anglican Diocese of Masvingo.

We profoundly thank you for your continued support during our times of trial and persecution by opponents of the truth. we still request your unwavering support spiritually and socially so that we can overcome the attacks we are continuing to receive from Kunonga and his allies.

Attached is an account of what obtained on Sunday 27th November when the bishop and some clergy went to Daramombe Mission to Celebrate Mass with the faithful there.

God bless you for your support. Have a blessed Christmas.

Regards,
(Name withheld)
For The Diocesan Information Desk-Anglican Diocese of Masvingo

EVENTS THAT HAVE TAKEN PLACE FROM 31 JULY TO 30 NOVEMBER 2011

Daramombe Mission falls under Bishop Godfrey Tawonezvi of the Anglican Diocese of Masvingo but Nolbert Kunonga invaded the Mission on 31 July 2011.

On 31 July Kunonga and his supporters in the presence of ZRP officers, forced entry into the Daramombe Church. The local congregation together with their Priest, Father Muyengwa Murombedzi were barred from getting into the Church by Kunonga. Kunonga then celebrated Mass with a handful of his supporters in attendance. During the Church Service he announced to his supporters that Andrew Mugomo, one of his priests who was ordained without any training, was now the priest in charge at Daramombe Mission.

On Sunday 4 August 2011 Mugomo came to the Mission in the presence of 3 ZRP officers with police dogs. Mugomo forced entry into the Church. He then changed locks on all the doors and used the Church as his bedroom.

On 5 September Kunonga illegally evicted Father Murombedzi, School Heads of Primary and Secondary Schools, two teachers, two nurses and 3 ancillary staff from Daramombe Mission. Mugomo then took occupation of Father Murombedzi’s house. The High Court ruled that those who had been evicted be restored. Kunonga reluctantly allowed them back but has since written them letters saying that they should leave the Mission effective 1 January 2012. Copies of these letters were sent to Provincial Education Director of Mashonaland East, Mr. S.Matshaka.

Father Murombedzi who moved back to the Mission on 14 November was again illegally evicted on 29 November by the Chivhu Deputy Sheriff on Kunonga’s instructions. The Deputy Sheriff threatened Fr. Murombedzi that if he refused to move from the Mission, he would be arrested.

Mugomo and a handful of his supporters have been visiting Churches in the Chivhu area that fall under the Diocese of Masvingo locking up churches and terrorizing the faithful and clergy alleging that all Anglican Church property in Zimbabwe belongs to Kunonga.

In Chivhu Town, Kunonga supporters made several attempts to take over Church properties without success. The Priest, Archdeacon Shamuyarira and the Parishioners resisted.

The faithful at Holy Trinity Church were joined by the community and drove away Kunonga supporters who had come to forcibly take control of the Church on 6 & 13 November. Mugomo hires thugs who get drunk before they invade Churches.

Bishop Godfrey Tawonezvi led a delegation of Daramombe Mission Church Council and Church Wardens and Priests and had a meeting with Superintendent Mapuranga Officer in Charge ZRP Chivhu. The Bishop and his delegation informed the Officer In Charge, Chief Inspector Kuwakumire and one other lady officer, that Daramombe Mission congregation that had been barred by Kunonga from using their Church building would return to the Mission on Sunday 27 November. The delegation also expressed disappointment in the manner in which ZRP, Chivhu was handling issues at the Mission, ie always accompanying Kunonga and his supporters when they engage in unlawful activities at the Mission and surrounding Churches.

Superintendent Mapuranga informed the delegation to go and have audience with Chief Superintendent Tsoka, Officer commanding Chikomba. A meeting was convened and Superintendent Tsoka was in the company of Superintendent Muparadzi and Superintendent Mushawavetu. The meeting took one and a half hours. The same sentiments were expressed by Masvingo Diocese delegation. The delegation produced copies of documents that show that Diocese of Masvingo is the Responsible Authority for Daramombe Mission. Copies of the High Court Judgment/Order that was issued by Justice Bhunu [Case No. 8777/11] on 12 October 2011 were given to the Chief Superintendent. The order clearly states that Kunonga should not interfere with operations at Daramombe Mission. But Kunonga has been violating this order since 12 October by directly interfering with operations at the Mission.

Kunonga’s priest, Mugomo, who is at Daramombe Mission, illegally employed people at the High School and Clinic on 15 October 2011. He also demands groceries from the School Tuck Shop free of charge. He demands cash for pocket money and on 22 October 2011 and 19 November 2011 was given $200.00 on each occasion. He has demanded money for petrol and car repairs from the High School. When a beast is slaughtered by the School for use by boarders in the Dining Hall, Mugomo demands a share which includes the liver.

On 26 November, 2 ZRP Officers in the company of Kunonga’s priest Mugomo, went to Father Murombedzi’s house at 12 midnight. Fr. Murombedzi and 8 other Priests who had gone to Daramombe Mission to join the Bishop in the celebration of Mass the following day, were woken up and questioned why they were at the Mission and what their plans were for the following day, Sunday. The Priests had their names taken by the Police officers.

On Sunday 27 November 2011, the faithful gathered for Mass at Daramombe Mission at 8.00am. When Bishop Tawonezvi arrived at the Mission to celebrate Mass, there were 8 ZRP Officers, some of them armed. There was also a police dog. The main entrance to the church was guarded by the police. The Bishop and his faithful who numbered over 300 were denied entry by the police. Superintendent Mapuranga and Superintendent Nhando, officer In charge CID, informed the Bishop to go to Chivhu Police Station. The Bishop was accompanied by the Churchwardens of Daramombe Congregation and 3 Priests. The Bishop, Priests and Churchwardens were at the police station for 2 hours. A meeting was convened with Superintendent Mapuranga, Superintendent Nhando, and Superintendent Mushawavetu. The Bishop was denied use of the church at the Mission and he [the Bishop] opted to use the School Hall instead since the faithful wanted to attend Mass on the first Sunday in Advent.

On arrival at the Mission from the Police Station, the Bishop was denied access to the School Hall by the police officers. He then addressed the faithful outside the church at 4.30pm. He spoke words of encouragement and said that Daramombe Mission belongs to the Diocese of Masvingo. He said that Kunonga was using the issue of homosexuality as a smoke screen, yet in actual fact he wants to grab church property for personal benefit. He expressed disappointment at how the institution is being run down, including the maternity home that was built by the Mothers’ Union in 2009. He encouraged the faithful to be peaceful and vigilant and never allow their churches to be invaded by Kunonga.

Bishop Tawonezvi and Father Murombedzi have received numerous threats from Mugomo and other Kunonga supporters. While they fear for their lives they continue to be in solidarity with the faithful and always pursue peaceful ways of repossessing Daramombe Mission.

61 Comments:

Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
If it was not so serious, it would be laughable. What’s going on is like a script from a fifties colonial film. The British will never interfere since the Congo debacle. We found that Africans are not like Europeans, they think differently. Besides, previously there had never been any mineral wealth to consider. Instead of the Druid vesting Mugabe, they should send Michael Nazir-Ali. He would stand up to Mugabe.
As for Mugabe being a professing Christian, you might as well say Nero was a professing Christian. Practising on Christians more likely!

7 December 2011 10:41  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
No disparraging about African was meant, It just was/is there a diiferent approach to life.
One has to be so careful not to cause offence, eh what Inspector.

7 December 2011 10:44  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

Whatever one's private peculiarites, and idiot beliefs, there is no excuse for this behaviour.
But then, Mugabe IS a brutal dictator - what do you expect?

7 December 2011 10:55  
Blogger bluedog said...

Your Grace, the only man who can stop this persecution of the Anglicans is Pope Benedict XVI.

A sharp word from B16 to the aging tyrant Mugabe threatening excommunication would surely cause him to rein in the thug Kunonga.

What does Benedict's silence mean?

7 December 2011 11:43  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

An excommunication from the Pope would probably send a message highly conducive to our own sense of outrage - and no doubt be of symbolic comfort to those suffering under Mugabe, but I suspect what runs through His Holiness' thoughts is that it is easy to make public condemnation in the Vatican, where one will never feel the reprecussions of the act. The constitution of the Anglican Church is of course, of a different order to the RC Church, but the Druid didn't go in there guns blazing - I suspect for the same reason.

The *local* Anglican bishops, of course, *did* excommunicate Kunonga - and we should applaud their bravery in doing so, because they continue to suffer the reprecussions of their stand against evil.

At the end of the day, God needs not a Western voice to declare the injustice in Zimbabwe, nor Western opinion to fuel His Wrath against those who persecute His Church. Cranmer's exhortation to prayer is precisely what we in the West should be doing. In that sense, there is a need for the Pope, and other Church leaders, to call for public prayer for the Christians and the people of Zimbabwe - but my guess is that they have already done so, and simply not been covered by the media.

7 December 2011 13:26  
Blogger The Gray Monk said...

Why are we surprised? Mugabe was known to have a psychopathic personality before he took power - but we insisted that as the "peoples' choice" he was the man. I have read elsewhere on atheist led fora that he is the "epitome of a Christian practicing his oppressive religion" so I can only say that we must await Judgement Day with interest ...

In the meantime my prayers continue to be with and for those this monster oppresses.

7 December 2011 13:49  
Blogger Oswin said...

Robert-murdering bastard-Mugabe continues to do what he's always done, from Rhodesia to Mozambique, to the present day; where's the surprise?

Ian Smith was 'on the nail' & Britain shafted both black and white and helped destroy the most progressive, productive and enlightened of African states. Oh I forgot, Smith was white, and therefore wrong...silly me; 'white rule' would have been a terrible thing to bear.

7 December 2011 15:22  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

This is a call to prayer and not intra or inter-denominational sniping.

Why not just pray The Lord's Prayer?

7 December 2011 17:20  
Blogger non mouse said...

So Satan's sitting pretty, then. In both Zimbabwe and Berlin.

7 December 2011 17:49  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Your Grace

The Inspector is at one with Oswin on Rhodesia. Black people as a mass have shown themselves to be hopelessly inefficient, corrupt, violent, unjust, ignorant, lazy and with tribal allegiances. Yes there have been good ones, but so many of these have escaped the stone age culture that was their inheritance after the white colonials left, and are possibly living in your street now if you are town based. And all that Western aid too, vanished. Nothing to show for it, save a few armoured vehicles and small arms.

Mugabe has maybe a couple of year’s life left. We all know what happens then. One of his strong arm thugs will seize control and the West will welcome a ‘new statesman’ with nauseatingly predictable ceremony. Cameron will be seen shaking hands with the latest in a long line of black Hitlers. Man at his insincerest worst !

Anyway, back to the thread. What about Christians there. The Inspector suggests they prepare for the worst, and keep sharpened knives ready to defend themselves. Send a few of your oppressors off to hell if the time comes, Jesus will understand, and don’t expect any miraculous delivery. Unless of course oil is discovered. My God, then even Uncle Sam will be there. They’ll have to moor the Aircraft Carriers Bristol fashion if that happens…

From the Inspector at his most cynical…

7 December 2011 18:17  
Blogger len said...

I expect' Benedict 'will be working furiously 'behind the scenes'.....Not.

7 December 2011 18:19  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Ah, Mr Integrity. The Inspector was merely joshing with you old boy. If you do feel your leg being pecked, it will be Dodo...

Mr Tingey. Time for a bit of honesty. Can you really say there isn’t a tiny part of you that doesn’t accept this planet and life on it happened by sheer chance, and a force like evolution that results in one life form becoming an improved and adapted higher life form is a ‘touchable’ example of a supernatural guiding hand at work ?

Bluedog. What about a sharp word from the SAS. Would have to be volunteers though….

7 December 2011 18:51  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len. How about you born agains getting together and organising censure....

7 December 2011 18:52  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Inspector; Close inspection should show that I have no issue. Keep those great thoughts emanating from the office.
Prayer is their only hope at present but the Lord does work in wondrous ways.

BTW. Can you point me to where I can learn the tricks of the trade in blogging.

7 December 2011 19:18  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Mr Integrity

The tips the Inspector knows are....

< a >will cause any word or sentence to appear blue< / a>
< i > will cause any etc to appear in italics< / i >
< b >will cause any to appear in bold< b >

All you have to do is take the spaces out between < and >. You can also run them together in tandem, but you must also close then in tandem too.

7 December 2011 19:29  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Inspector @ 18.51, this communicant was privileged earlier this year to attend an address by the Zimbabwean minister for education, Senator David Coltart, who is white. Coltart is an inspiration, a practicing Christian of exceptional courage and clear focus. He is not of course part of Mugabe's own party in Z, but a member of the opposition coalition. Quite why he is still alive is a miracle in itself; Coltart has lost count at the number of times he has been arrested in the middle of the night and taken in for questioning.

If you are looking for a specific focuss for your prayer, consider the good works of David Coltart.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Coltart

7 December 2011 19:38  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

len

What a petty, small minded little you really are. Instead of praying for the people of Zimbabwe you make poisonous comments.

Still, what else be expected from someone ignorant on basic Christology?

Scurry off and do something useful.

7 December 2011 20:04  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Ps
The missing word is heretic, in case you wondered.

len can't bring himself to acknowledge that Jesus of Nazereth, born of Mary, was the Second Person of the Trinity! He refuses to acknowledge that the Son of God, Jesus the Christ, died for him!
.

7 December 2011 20:36  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Inspector
Thank you very much. I'm a bit slow on these things. Might have to get my UCL daughter to help me. I had to help her with her degree. oops!

7 December 2011 21:31  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Mr Integrity. One does believe you have it !

7 December 2011 22:11  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Thank you for reminding us of Coltart, Bluedog. May his charmed existence there continue....

7 December 2011 22:19  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Fortunately, though, ever-ready to spring in defense of co-religionists worldwide, Christians in Britain are mobilizing as we speak. Citizen's petititions are circulating; sheaves and sheaves of angry signatures landing on groaning desks at overwhelmed ministries, Parliament scheduling emergency meetings and on-the-hour press releases. Young Anglican students in the thousands have camped in tents, right in front of the Zimbabwe Embassy (Zimbabwe House, 429 Strand, London, WC2R OJR). The embassy's phone (Tel: 020 7836 7755) hasn't stopped ringing and the faxes are overwhelmed with notes of plea and protest (Fax: 020 7379 1167).

And in the midst of this Maelstrom of Christian outrage, we see two lonely figures which will henceforth symbolize the power and the the spirit of ecumenism in times of challenge and hardship. It's Len and Dodo! Once at loggerheads over inter-denominational doctrinal differences, they have now put such things aside and have chained themselves to the embassy's fence for a far greater cause. Two Christian brothers sharing a single coat between them, a look of grim determination on their craggy, wind and rain-beaten faces...a searing iconic image that will surely be commemorated in stone and bronze for decades to come.

8 December 2011 01:32  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Avi, naughty - just imagine!

Besides, len isn't a Christian at all, as I've just discovered from following his discourse with Albert.

And, I'll have you know my face is not craggy, wind or rain beaten. thank you.

8 December 2011 02:02  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

You two will be craggy, by the time you're through hurling doctrinal missive at each other and any collaterals happening by. I'm on EST, Dodo, tired already, with my cup of cocoa before heading off to a real bed with sheets instead of a cabin sleeper...now, that's luxury. It's two in the AM where you are, for goodness sake. You need something powerful. Milk and cookies, perhaps?

8 December 2011 02:53  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "Besides, len isn't a Christian at all, as I've just discovered from following his discourse with Albert."

Following from behind, nipping ankles and hoping for scraps from the table.

"And, I'll have you know my face is not craggy, wind or rain beaten. thank you."

I think Craggy Island is a better image given your Catholicism in practice. ;)

8 December 2011 07:51  
Blogger len said...

Dodo,

Your arguments(and Albert`s are as dead as the false religion(Catholicism)that you follow.

Albert and yourself have now taken to outright lying which doesn`t surprise me at all as this is the basis of your religion.

Just to make my case crystal clear I believe Jesus is exactly who He claims to be according to the Scriptures.

Lying for your religion may be acceptable to you but I hold it in utter contempt.

Avi, Dodo is no brother of mine in fact I hold him and his ilk as enemies of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

8 December 2011 08:14  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

Just like Africa has, Arabia will blossom into a civilised, tolerant and sophisticated society.

Or so our "leaders" in the West continue to delude themselves.

Meanwhile, what is the point of the ArchBish of Canterbury?

Just askin'.

8 December 2011 09:01  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

Ien
THAT is why, or rather one of the reasons, I'm an atheist.
How the christians love one another!
And the muslims, of course, the Sunni/Shi'a slaughter over the centuries is as good/bad as the internecine warfare of the first lot .....

"All religion kill, enslave and tirture" yeah ....

8 December 2011 09:04  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

len.

Your ancestors were Catholics.

"In condemning us, you condemn all your own ancestors, all our ancient bishops and kings, all that was once the glory of England — the island of saints, and the most devoted child of the See of Peter."
- St. Edmund Campion.

They would be ashamed of you.

8 December 2011 11:12  
Blogger bluedog said...

Len, Sorry to see that the Dodo is now assuming the right to declare you not Christian. What a bloody cheek!

Don't let Dodo, Harry-ca-Nab and the Anglican Turncoat Alfred upset you by their claims. It is of course sickeningly arrogant and un-Christian for anybody to sit in judgement of their fellow man in this way.

You only need answer to your God, not these 'gentlemen'.

8 December 2011 11:25  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

len said ...

"Just to make my case crystal clear I believe Jesus is exactly who He claims to be according to the Scriptures."

And just who does He claim to be? Come on, let's hear your Christology len. The Gospel has been to be undersytood and is open to a wide variety of interpretations.

Answer the questions repeatedly put to you:

"Is Jesus of Nazereth the Second Person of the Trinity?"

"Is Jesus equally God and man ?"

"Did the Second Person of the Trinity die for you?"

You have issues accepting the the Hypostatic Union and Communicatio Idiomatum and appear to be clinging to old heresies.

You have also avoided answering questions about the nature of the Trinity. Do you accept the doctrine of Three Hypostases in one Ousia.

These are not Roman Catholic teachings but have been the foundaton of Christian beliefs for 2000 years.

8 December 2011 11:40  
Blogger bluedog said...

Hey, Mr Dodo @ 11.40, if you are a public servant in the pay of the taxpayer, at this time of day, shouldn't you be doing some work?

Or perhaps you are not a public servant at all and that claim is just another of your deceits.

8 December 2011 11:54  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

You two are missing the point, len and Dodo. My post was about the Zimbabwe issue, not your accusations against one another and one another's religions. What you folks have here is one of those defining moments with the unpredictable potential which an act of uniting behind a common cause can become. For my community, and for me personally, it was the unification behind a common purpose, the rescues of Soviet and Ethiopian Jewries. Such things don't eliminate or solve doctrinal differences but, having to toil over funding, publicity, political action and solicitation and coordination of volunteers can put things in a different perspective. Jess sayin', ya know.

8 December 2011 13:01  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

bluedog
I could say mind your own business.

Am I required to be chained to a desk? 'Employed' by the State has a variety of different forms, you know. Besides, I might be on holiday or, Lord above, allowed private internet useage at work.

What's the matter, can't you work out the answers to the questions put to len?

8 December 2011 14:01  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "Am I required to be chained to a desk?"

You mean hospital trolley, I think.

8 December 2011 17:32  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Regular followers of the Archbishop’s blog will have noticed a rather tiresome individual who pops up now and again as a weasel would. It now appears his very Christianity is in doubt (?). To learn more about our man, you could do worse than google Born Again Brainwashed. Happy searching – and don’t forget now, delight in what you find !!

8 December 2011 17:33  
Blogger len said...

Dodo I think you and your 'mates 'need to understand what a real Christian is.

I can tell you definitely that belonging to the Catholic Church and adsorbing their heretical doctrines aint it!.

Your words(Dodo and friends) categorically state that none of you know Him. The clues are in the Words of Jesus Himself.

8 December 2011 22:06  
Blogger len said...

Bluedog,

Dodo is someone not to be taken too seriously,some people get really offensive when they realise there will be no 'comeback'.It is a form of cowardice. The Inspector and (lately) Albert have all taken to doing the same thing(like a pack of wolves)To me it just shows the spirit that is behind Catholicism,the spirit that empowers them.It is the same spirit that was behind the inquisition, the same spirit that turned the Gospel of Jesus Christ into a 'work of men'.

So nothing that they say and do surprises me any more.

Greater is He that is in me than he who is in the World!.Praise God.

8 December 2011 22:17  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

len said ...

"Your words(Dodo and friends) categorically state that none of you know Him. The clues are in the Words of Jesus Himself."

Very escoteric and now with a suggestion of gnostism. Are you dismissing the rest of the Gospels and Epistles as being of less significance in understanding Jesus Christ? Do you rely only on His recorded words?

Go on len answer the questions about the nature of Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity. Surely it's your duty to correct us?

8 December 2011 22:43  
Blogger IanCad said...

Harry-ca-Nab @ 11:12'

"Len, Your ancestors were Catholic"

And if you go back to the second and third centuries they were, perhaps, Christians.
Apostolic Christians who needed no earthly conduit to God. Did not bow down to idols and relics. Likely worshipped on the true Sabbath. Had no concept of Marian worship or the adoration of saints and the supremacy of Peter.
They probably never imagined that in future centuries a man with a fish god for a hat would appear. Claiming to bind on earth and in heaven he would direct his minions to burn, pierce, srangle and despoil all who would reject his dominion.
He would direct kings, princes and armies.
He would change times and laws.
Perhaps Len's ancestors would be ashamed if he worshipped at the altar of this demonic cult whose currency is deception, and commodity, the souls of men.

9 December 2011 08:42  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Len @ 22.17 said, 'It is the same spirit that was behind the inquisition.'

My sentiments exactly, Sir!

Almost Pythonesque. See comment from Dodo @ 22.34 to new communicant Al, 'Many of your views are very close to Roman Catholic doctrine - ever thought of converting?.'

Makes you wonder what Dodo's pick-up line was in his courting days.

9 December 2011 09:18  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

IanCad

Been reading wierd internet sites like len, have you? That outpouring is groundless nonsense full of misrepresentations of Roman Catholicism.

Maybe you would like to answer the questions len is avoiding.

"Is Jesus of Nazereth the Second Person of the Trinity?"

"Is Jesus equally God and man?"

"Did the Second Person of the Trinity die for you?"

Do you accept (if you understand them!) the Hypostatic Union and Communicatio Idiomatum and the Three Hypostases in one Ousia?

You see, these doctrines are not clearly stated in scripture and test 'sola scriptura'. They were developed by the early Church Fathers who understood the need for a solid and reasoned foundation to our faith.

So you, like len, keep the Lord's Day on Saturday, between sundown and sunrise, do you? When do you celebrate Easter and Christmas - or don't you?

9 December 2011 12:42  
Blogger IanCad said...

Dodo @ 12:42,

Are history books that chronicle the outrages Rome to be held by you in the same contempt as internet sites that trumpet the same truths?

Re: The Trinity. I hold to the prayer "There are not three incomprehesibles, not three uncreated; but one uncreated and one incomprehensible." And surely Christ died for all mankind.

Let's keep things simple. When theology is obscured by deep arcana you can bet there's something wrong. Maybe I need to visit one of your "weird internet sites" to be enlightened.

So much was right in what the early Church Fathers wrote. However error crept in as is its wont when truth is not jealously guarded.
God has not revealed all to us, but what are to understand are the clear teachings of Christ and considering the weight of evidence where clarity is veiled.

Most surely I hold fast to the Fourth Commandment. The Roman Church bases its authority over scripture through the act of changing it. The seventeenth session of The Council Of Trent will attest to this.
Both Christmas and Easter were absored into pagan celebrations. Many gods claimed December 25th as the date for their celebrations, The word Easter comes from the goddess Ishtar. If we chose to celebrate on these dates we should be mindful of their origins and remember that they should be to the Glory of Christ alone.

9 December 2011 15:27  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

IanCad

Not so 'hard line as len then in that you accept the writings of the early Church Fathers.

Of course the Christian Church's approach to the elimination of heresy, by eliminating the heretic, is indefensible. However, violence and the ruthless removal of threats, spiritual and secular, has a tradition in the Old Testament.

The nature of God, the Incarnation and Passion are beyond human reason. Yet, we can develop a growing understanding. Before you leap to len's defence against Papists, you would do well to examine his theology or as much of it as he is willing to reveal.

As for Roman Catholic teaching, before launching into telling me what I believe it would be better if you found this out first hand. Try the Vatican website or one with the Cathecism of the Church. We don't eat babies either!

9 December 2011 16:40  
Blogger len said...

I must hold my hands up to having visited some very weird (Catholic)internet sites.You couldn`t make it up.....they did?.

9 December 2011 19:28  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

len

Like protestant sites those perporting to be 'catholic' sites have to be approached with caution. You probably lack the mental capacity to follow the genuine ones given your mind has become full of nonsense.

Which ones have you visited?

And what are your listed favourite websites?

9 December 2011 21:15  
Blogger len said...

The delusional Dodo said
'The are not Catholic they are fakes'

Couldn`t make it up!.

You should go into the Catholic theology department!.Then you could!.

9 December 2011 21:32  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Len

Is that how you read your bible? Did they do English Comprehension when you went to school?!

What I said:
" ... those perporting to be 'catholic' sites have to be approached with caution."

And you read this as:
"The are not Catholic they are fakes."

I also invited you to share the sites you claimed to have visited. I can only conclude you're telling porkies. Besides, given your incapacity to grasp basic words and concepts, I doubt you'd understand theology.

9 December 2011 23:13  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Ps

And I added:

"You probably lack the mental capacity to follow the genuine ones given your mind has become full of nonsense."

You proved me correct!

9 December 2011 23:15  
Blogger len said...

Dodo, you and the word ' correct' are two words which do no fit side by side .

You are soooooo wrong on so many levels Dodo.

I was explaining(on another thread) how religion puffs one up and fills one with pride and you have just demonstrated it admirably Dodo......thanks.

10 December 2011 20:35  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

len said ...

You are soooooo wrong on so many levels Dodo."


My advice to IanCad:

"The nature of God, the Incarnation and Passion are beyond human reason. Yet, we can develop a growing understanding. Before you leap to len's defence against Papists, you would do well to examine his theology or as much of it as he is willing to reveal."

Do tell.

What is your understanding of Jesus of Nazereth, His human and divine nature and His relationship with the Godhead?

11 December 2011 00:10  
Blogger IanCad said...

Dodo,

Read my previous post.

11 December 2011 07:09  
Blogger IanCad said...

Dodo,

My apologies. It's early in the morning; the cats want out, the fires's gone out, and what I thought I might have written wasn't.

The rest of the prayer reads --.

"Perfect God, and perfect man: of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting; Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead: and inferior to the Father, as touching his Manhood."

Lest there be some misunderstanding as to "perfect Man;" let me state that it is used in the sense of Christ being wholly man, with all the temptations, emotions and frailities that we have.
Christ overcame as a man. He showed us the pattern for us to follow.
To hold that as "perfect Man" Christ had an advantage over us in our fallen state is to diminish His sacrifice and has lead to the false doctrine of Original Sin, with the attendant error of the Assumption of Mary.

11 December 2011 07:43  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

As an atheist from a CofE upbringing, I've always understood it to be something like that: "Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead: and inferior to the Father, as touching his Manhood.", if I actually understand what that is implying. It seemed quite odd to me to think that the baby in the nativity scene was simultaneous seeing the entirety of creation from its beginning to its end whilst looking out of its swaddling cloths.

11 December 2011 08:22  
Blogger len said...

The way I see it for Jesus to be a perfect mediator(which He is) He (Jesus)who is God had to experience Humanity.He had to experience(which He did) all the temptations of man but not succumb to them.The Gospel of John says this quite plainly ,why can Catholics not understand this?.

Make of that what you will.

BTW , Jesus went through all that He did to become the perfect Mediator why in Heavens name have Catholics usurped that position and put a mere man in His place namely the pope?.

11 December 2011 12:53  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

len

You are still avoiding the central issue.

Do you believe in a Triune God? A Godhead of Three Persons existing in love, equality and unity?

Do you accept the physical Incarnation of Jesus, the Second Person of the Trinity, as man, born of the virgin Mary?

Do you accept the Hypostatic Union?

11 December 2011 16:24  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Ian Cad

How wonderful to see you use the Athanasian Creed. It is is a beautiful and poetic summary of our faith in the Triune God and the miracle of the Incarnation. As a schoolboy we were required to learn it by heart. Sadly, in the Roman Catholic Church it has fallen out of fashion since Vatican II and is rarely recited.

The inclusion of condemnations of those who disagree with the Creed serves as a timely reminded to those (len) toying with modalism and tritheism.

"WHOSOEVER WILL BE SAVED, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly."

The 'Athanasian' Creed uses the Nicene term homoousios ('one substance', 'one in Being') not only with respect to the relation of the Son to the Father according to his divine nature, but that the Son is homoousios with his mother Mary, according to his human nature.

What do you mean by the comment:

" ... the false doctrine of Original Sin, with the attendant error of the Assumption of Mary."?

Don't you accept the doctrine of Original Sin - or are you saying it has been corrupted in some way by Roman Catholics and the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is erroneous?

11 December 2011 21:45  
Blogger IanCad said...

Dodo.

More has been written about the doctrine of O.S. (which is not in the Bible) than any other subject except, perhaps, Predestination.
To be brief, O.S. allows us to be saved in our sins and not from them. Matt. 1:21.
It also violates the biblical principle that no man shall die for another's sins. Ex. 32:31-33. Ezek. 18:20.
We are born with a sinful nature requiring the saving grace of Christ to redeem us.
O.S. holds that not only are we born with a tendency to sin, but are also guilty of the sins of Adam. This requires that Christ be born of a sinless mother who herself was born in sinlessness. Thus the Immaculate Conception of Mary . (Not to be conflated with the Vigin Birth.) This would, essentially, make Mary divine. It would then not be unreasonable to claim that she was assumed into Heaven. A type, if you will, of our Lord's ascension.
Augustine of Hippo in the 5th cent. AD is to be credited, or I should say, blamed for the O.S. dogma. He derived it, loosely, from the Manicheans; a mixed up bunch of early Ecumenists if there ever were.
O.S is not just a Catholic doctrine. Many Protestant denominations endorse it. The issue needs revisting.

12 December 2011 12:18  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

IanCad

Ummmm .... quite a surprising position which I confess never having come across before except in Mormonism and the exceptional prostant sects. It contradicts the faith of all orhodox Christianity - Anglicanism, Catholicism and Christian Orthodoxy.

The doctrine is biblical and based on the writing of St Paul the Apostle in Romans 5:12-21 and 1Corinthians 15:22, and began to be developed by Irenaeus in the 2nd-century.

Original sin is the general condition of sinfulness into which humans are born, distinct from the actual sins that a person commits. Original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants". Human beings do not bear any "original guilt" from Adam's particular sin, which is his alone.

As the representative of humanity, Adam's Fall means we are all born into a fallen world but though fallen we have free.

Tertullian, Cyprian, Ambrose and Ambrosiaster held mankind shares in Adam's sin. Augustine taught that Adam's sin is transmitted to us all - human nature was transformed and we now live in sin.

The doctrine does not require Mary to be divine at all - just sinless from conception. Being human she needed a special, singular act of Grace from God and Jesus, her son, was also her God and His Passion necessary for her salvation too. Christ Ascended by His own power. Mary was Assumned not through her own power but by the power of God.

12 December 2011 18:04  
Blogger IanCad said...

Dodo,

Good reply. I can see why so many hours have been spent on this.

The verses in Romans and 1st Cor. that you cite are much used in both camps. I will have to re-read some commentaries in order to respond in any meaningful way.

Your third paragraph is intriguing. Apart from the nomenclature it seems to me that we may not be too far apart there.

So we both hold that we have free will, or was that a typo.?

We could spend a lifetime discecting the writings of the Church Fathers. I must say though that your statement re. Augustine could contradict your previous positions.

Lastly, you seem to be relying solely on extra-biblical support to validate your final paragraph.
It's a pity no one else has chimed in on this off-topic thread. unfortunately it is about on its last legs.

12 December 2011 20:33  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

IanCad

I may not have been too clear.

Yes we all have free will and are personally responsible for our own particualr sins. However, our capacity to resist evil has been diminished by the Fallen state we inherit from Adam - original sin. Christ frees us from the consequences of both the Fall and from our personal sins, through His sacrifice, once we become at one with Him.

And yes, the doctrines on Mary are extra-biblical to some extent but not entirely so.

12 December 2011 23:38  

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