Thursday, April 05, 2012

Anne Milton MP: "The 24-week fetus has no awareness and cannot feel pain"

This foetus baby was born prematurely at 21 weeks - three weeks before the legal limit in the UK for abortion. Although weak and frail, the little one appears to be responding to stimuli. On hearing of the rise of (illegal) sex-selective abortion, a constituent of the Rt Hon David Lidington MP wrote to him to express his concerns in quite some detail.

By way of response, Mr Lidington, a practising Christian, simply forwarded to his constituent the letter which he received from Anne Milton MP at the Department of Health. There were no further comments: Mr Lidington did not disassociate himself from any of Mrs Milton's assertions on abortion, which is strange, not least because her letter referred to a number of 'findings' on the ability of a 24-week-old baby to feel pain, with which Mr Lidington does not agree. She reiterated these findings to Mr Lidington's constituent, saying:
1) The fetus cannot feel pain before 24 weeks because the connections in the fetal brain are not fully formed.

2) The fetus, while in the chemical environment of the womb, is in a state of induced sleep and is unconscious.

3) Because the 24-week fetus has no awareness and cannot feel pain, the use of analgesia is of no benefit...
While Mrs Milton is simply quoting the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, it is evident that this is the DoH 'line to take'. But it is astonishing that they are adamant that the baby being aborted feels no pain. It is an unproven assertion and epitomises society's callous attitude to the killing of human life. Indeed, looking at some of the research done into foetal pain, especially by Dr Peter Saunders, Anne Milton's letter appears dishonest and prejudiced.

The Bible is quite helpful on this matter. When Mary found herself pregnant with Jesus, we are told by Luke (1:36) that her cousin Elizabeth was six months (24 weeks) into her own pregnancy. And this 'foetus' appears to be able to be able to respond to stimuli (v41).

But we are talking about a very significant industry here, with a turnover of £millions, propagated and led by people earning £100,000s. That some providers are apparently offering 'abortion on demand' perhaps ought to come as no surprise. But that HM Government is peddling the lie that 24-week-old babies in the womb can feel no pain is unconscionable. Babies are not terminated with a swift bullet to the brain or an anaesthetised lethal injection: they are ripped apart and pulled limb from limb while they are still alive. And then their little heads are crushed, and the whole life is just sucked out of the womb.

His Grace alerted David Lidington to the precise contents of Mrs Milton's letter and, being the honourable man that he is, Mr Lidington has admitted error and written again to his constituent to clarify his personal beliefs. But we can be in doubt about the beliefs and attitude of the Department of Health on this matter, which is why it has long been a ministry in which Christians cannot easily work.

114 Comments:

Blogger Windsor Tripehound said...

This doesn't sit easily with Cameron's Easter message. No doubt he can reconcile the two.

5 April 2012 17:01  
Blogger Demetrius said...

"To begin at the beginning", quoting Dylan Thomas. Surely "life" starts at the moment of conception?

5 April 2012 17:04  
Blogger Mark In Mayenne said...

Hi, YG, I'll probably be classed as a nutter for saying this, but I have memories from my time inside the womb. I was not asleep all the time.

5 April 2012 17:57  
Blogger IanCad said...

PSALM 94:3

LORD, how long shall the wicked, how long shall the wicked triumph?

5 April 2012 17:59  
Blogger Kester Rogers said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5 April 2012 17:59  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

It doesn't matter to the abortion industry whether the child feels pain or not. The child might as well be a defective appendix for all it cares. No one outside the medical staff sees the procedure. No one hears any screams. The body parts are all quickly disposed of. It's all a very neat and sterile and hidden process of killing.

But perceptions of pain in the unborn child will quickly lead in the mind of the customer to perceptions of sentience in the unborn child. That's far too human a response to leave unchallenged by an industry that depends for its existence on denying the humanity of unborn children. So an analgesic of "It feels no pain" is quickly applied. "It's not different from a appendix, after all."

That might as well be the mantra of the abortion industry. "It's not a child. It's an appendix." Somehow it magically becomes a child after birth. Or 24 weeks. Or whatever other arbitrary boundary men decide to apply so they can have time to kill their children lest they be required to assume responsibility for them.

"Responsibility? Hell, no! I've got a vacation plannned already."

carl

5 April 2012 18:32  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Your Grace. This might even get the odd post from women who have had abortions. Their own self pity in that ‘difficult decision’ will be as nauseating now to decent folk as it has been in the past. We can only hope that when they are judged by the Almighty, they get what’s coming to them...

5 April 2012 18:52  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector

As much as I am against abortion and the seeming ease with which it is with "full understanding and consent" requested, you are being harsh.

Over the years I have counselled a number of women who have taken this path, some more than once. A common "explanation" is that they feared they were losing "their lives" - their hopes, dreams and aspirations for the future. Adoption was the worse of both options.

No one framed the birth in postive ways to counter this. For the mother it was the baby, "it", dies or "I" die. Selfish? Indeed. What didn't help was a sole emphasise on the "child". Self pity? Maybe.

The place that focused soley on their "needs" was the abortion industry. The clinics were so "understanding and helpful".

How to say "No" it is wrong and stand firm without compromising whilst also exploring and reframing the options. It's not non-directive counselling if its Christian but it can be focused on the woman and her perceptions of the position she is in.

Let's not make it too difficult for them to return.

5 April 2012 19:48  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

It’s Ironic Dodo. There’s you giving DanJ0 a good kicking for his sexual inclination, yet you pull up short of full and complete condemnation of women who go ahead with abortion. It’s not for the Inspector to judge these women, but God himself. What good does it do them to tell them that it wasn’t their fault, and that it was the abortion industry's signature on the death warrant.

You also forget how strong women are. We chaps are reminded of it by them on this blog. They are strong for a reason, to look after their young, expected or unexpected. No No No. Tell the women what they did was WRONG. Tell them that to save their souls, to repent now, otherwise when they die, they are on their own...

5 April 2012 20:06  
Blogger Corrigan1 said...

"...propagated and led by people earnings £100,000s..."


I think you mean "MAKING" £100,000s, don't you?

5 April 2012 20:06  
Blogger john in cheshire said...

We are at the mercy (if that's the correct word) of people who are stupid, uneducated, without imagination, without compassion and without the ability to question the information with which they are presented. Our politicians, civil servants, and their lapdog specialists are without any of the necessary qualifications to be in any position of power. That's what happens when socialists/communists are allowed to determine the roads along our nation walks.

5 April 2012 20:09  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "There’s you giving DanJ0 a good kicking for his sexual inclination, yet you pull up short of full and complete condemnation of women who go ahead with abortion."

Hmmm. That'll be the sort of 'good kicking' a paraplegic person wearing slippers gives.

5 April 2012 20:27  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
It was fascinating following this story develop through the day on Twitter.
Interesting that Nadine Norris first picked up the story and passed it on to His grace. I went to Dr. Peter Saunders comment on the medical research and it seams like any Government or Medical Group cover up of the inconvenient truth to justify their official line.
Integrity is lacking at all levels of Government.

5 April 2012 20:28  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mr Integrity,

With respect, Mrs Dorries picked up the story from His Grace.

5 April 2012 20:31  
Blogger Jocelyn Knockersbury said...

You jumped very easily there from unproven assertion to lie, they aren't the same thing. That Mary was pregnant with Jesus by the holy spirit is an unproven assertion, is it therefore a lie?

John in Cheshire. Never ceases to amaze me that conservatives can believe the following things: that Thatcher and Reagan defeated communism and socialism AND that the roads along which our nation walks are determined by ..communists and socialists

5 April 2012 20:36  
Blogger Rodneybg said...

I was taught that the town in the hill country to which Mary hurried (Luke 1:39) was about seven days walk - she was barely pregnant when Elizabeth calls her 'the mother of my Lord' (v43). We also believe in a fully human Jesus. Therefore that which starts to form rapidly in the womb from day 1, and by 12 weeks is a tiny baby about the size of the top half of your thumb, with 10 fingers and 10 toes, is also human, not some bunch of cells, and should therefore be protected, like its mother, from day 1. I do not subscribe to this nonsense that because baby can't - allegedly - feel pain it is ok to kill it; or the Greek philosophical rubbish that the baby is only fully human when it gets its spirit after 40 days (can't remember if that was in the womb or after birth). What is needed here and across the nation is some serious prayer, for forgiveness and for a huge change of attitude.

5 April 2012 20:43  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Inpector
Of course abortion is a grevious sin and women and men who are involved in it must repent and chamge. All I'm saying is that it is not as clean cut as you suggest.

As for DanJ0, he celebrates his sin, sees it as his "right", and wants to world to adapt to accomodate and normalise it.

The women I have worked with came voluntarily for help and sought it through a lay service, funded by the Church although not the formal Church. If they adopted the aggressive, atheist posture and demanded I accept abortion was their "right", I would turn away.

There are such resources too for homosexuals who want to amend their lives. Once DanJ0 comes forward for help he will be welcomed with open arms.

5 April 2012 21:21  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Ps
Besides, DanJ0 knows what he's doing is wrong and hiding behind philosophical concepts to justify it.

5 April 2012 21:41  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. The Inspector insists we leave DanJ0’s sexuality out of the equation. This is about abortion. There can be NO justification for abortion. None at all. The women you have seen are accepted victims of the whole abortion death cult. If there were no abortion, they would not be victims. If there was no abortion, we would not see young women drunk in the street. What do they care if they are taken semi conscious by some stranger wanting sex. After all, there is abortion for them. Doesn’t seem fair does it, this responsibility placed on women not to murder their own flesh and blood. Tough. That’s the Christian way, and no compromise....

5 April 2012 22:09  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector
It was you who raised DanJ0's sexuality.

I'm not disagreeing in principle - just saying to the road back to the Church should not have insurmountable obstacles placed in it. I'm also saying that Christian organisations need to better understand the motives of women in order to successfully fight this monstrous crime.

The majority of women do not see the child in the womb as a child. That's how successful the pro-abortion lobby has been. In addition, pro-life organisations by focusing on this exclusively overlook the need to focus on the reasons for the decision and attempt to counter them. Every life thus saved is worth the effort.

I would never counternance an abortion under any circumstances, you should know that. I just think we neeed to think more carefully about how to stop this slaughter. Posters outside clinics and hurling abuse is not going to succeed.

5 April 2012 22:28  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

I would think the brain and nervous system is already at 12 weeks fully developed but small, therefore it can feel pain.

5 April 2012 22:29  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo The Inspector appreciates your intentions are for the best. But we must not be gentle with women considering an abortion. We should remind them that when rats find the going tough, scarcity of food for example, they will consume their young. We should tell them that they themselves risk becoming human rats if they proceed. It is the stark, bloody awful truth of it all...

5 April 2012 22:47  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector. I recall asking a Brother at school how Judas could possibly betray Christ having been an Apostle.

His answer - "all sin is a mystery". This sin, like Judas', amounts to treachery. We are capable of understanding this better than Judas' and there will be many women who, given the opportunity, will choose life. Many will not. That's where we have come to as a society.

I agree, the Church should take an uncompromising stand against the sin but seek always to reach the potential sinner and the repentant.

Telling a woman she is behaving like a rat will not achieve the desired result.

5 April 2012 23:18  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

My apologies Your Grace.

Good to see you follow the comments.

5 April 2012 23:27  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Integrity

Oh, trust me, the Bish' is ever present.

5 April 2012 23:34  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. It will be akin to a civil war to rid our society of the disgusting practice of abortion. We must steel ourselves against the massive onslaught the godless ones will throw at us. We will have to give our all, no quarter will be given by either side. If it takes telling women they are rats, so be it...

5 April 2012 23:43  
Blogger Josh and Elspeth Cordray said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5 April 2012 23:44  
Blogger happyuk said...

Even wild beasts have protective feelings for their children , not to speak of human society. Is Mrs Milton so degraded that she thinks it is all right for a father and mother to kill their children in the womb?

Prestigious medical practitioners give this opinion, and therefore the parents kill their children within the womb. How degraded human society has become!

Their scientific knowledge is so advanced that they think that within the egg and the embryo there is no life. These so-called scientists are receiving Nobel Prizes for advancing the theory of chemical evolution.

But if chemical combinations are all that is needed to produce life , why don’t the scientists manufacture something like an egg through chemistry and put it in an incubator so that a chicken will come out? What is their answer?

With their highly advanced scientific knowledge they are unable to create even an egg.

Such people are described in Bhagavad-gita as 'mayayapahrta jnanah' - fools whose knowledge has been taken away.

They are not men of knowledge, but rascals posing as scientists.

6 April 2012 00:14  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector

If rats there be, surely they include opinion formers, the politicians who make the laws and those who benefit from these laws? And those Church leaders who have failed to offer proper leadership should hang their heads in shame.

The shocking thing is that people no longer see this as an evil.

6 April 2012 00:14  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. The sobriquet ‘rat’ is deserved for all who advocate abortion or who passively agree with it. Let a new campaign begin to identify these rats...

6 April 2012 00:21  
Blogger Oswin said...

Dodo @ 15:48 : Well, for once I applaud your attitude. Whereas, the Inspector appears as a ranting Puritan, circa 1650's' - of the sort suppressed by Cromwell even!


happyyuk @ 00:14 : Ah but, ''Even wild beasts'' ingest their own young, and worse!

6 April 2012 00:43  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector
At this season we naturally reflect on sin and the ways of the world.

Jesus said as He hung dying after unimaginable abuse and torture: "Father forgive them for they know what they do."

The Catholic Church excommunicates those undergoing abortions and anyone involved in procuring or facilitating an abortion. What greater sanction is there than the threat of eternal Hell? It also acknowledges that there are degrees of culpability in grevious sin and that not everyone is acting wilfully with full understanding. The actions of individuals we must leave to God.

We live in secular and atheist times. The Church and its members are pilgrims here in a vale of tears. The law is wrong according to God's Divine law. Unfortunately, the temporal order is seperate from the spiritual order in our times. People have free will and exercise it against God.

All I really know is that when I work with someone who expresses guilt and regret after an abortion, or any other issue, all I can do is listen and let them decide what they wish to do to put things right. Knowing God forgives all is a wonderful realisation.

Christs last words: "It is accomplished." Superb, hopeful words!

As I said earlier - all sin is a mystery.

Oswin
The Inspector is expressing a rightous rage against an intolerable crime that we are powerless to counter. I understand this anger. I feel it too.

6 April 2012 01:08  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Dodo

Excommunication has nothing whatsoever to do will the threat of Hell. It simply means people are denied access to the Sacraments of the RCC. There is a very high correlation between being a believer and being denied access to the Sacraments of the RCC.

carl

6 April 2012 02:39  
Blogger CSPB said...

The recent 40 Days for Life campaign has been a great success. I would like to suggest that everyone take part in the next one.

For information: http://www.40daysforlife.com/

6 April 2012 03:59  
Blogger len said...

The origins of sin.

We can find this in the Word of God.

Isaiah 14:'For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.'

This is quite plainly rebellion against God. Satan persuaded one third of the angelic host to join his rebellion and later in the Garden enlisted Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve as the 'parents' of Humanity and all their Children(us)became under the authority of the enemy of Humanity.

Satan therefore had authority over the whole World and was able to pour his rebellion, death,and disease into the entire human race.

So the 'author of sin( and all that accompanies it... is Satan the fallen angel.

Thank God that Jesus Christ stripped Satan of his authority and gave that authority to all who accept God`s plan of salvation.

So in rebelling against God one aligns oneself with Satan and becomes part of the rebellion against God and allows sin to reign in their lives.

6 April 2012 07:49  
Blogger len said...

'Anne Milton MP: "The 24-week fetus has no awareness and cannot feel pain"'

Well I suppose there are ways of terminating adults that 'they would feel no pain'but does that make it ok?.Strangely(or not) this is exactly the path we are going down now.

Do those who terminate their offspring' feel no pain'when they come to an awareness of exactly what has been done to their defenceless child in the womb?.


Abortion clinics have very cleverly sanitised their 'termination process'.

When you buy a packet of cigarettes graphic examples of what you are doing to yourself are shown on the packet.Abortion clinics should be forced to show images of dismembered babies as an illustration of exactly what will take place with an abortion.

6 April 2012 08:00  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Pennance: "The recent 40 Days for Life campaign has been a great success. I would like to suggest that everyone take part in the next one."

For both sides, it seems. I've been watching this grow over the last few of weeks.

6 April 2012 08:20  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "Besides, DanJ0 knows what he's doing is wrong and hiding behind philosophical concepts to justify it."

If I knew it was wrong or I thought it was a 'sin' then I wouldn't do it or make such a fuss about religious intrusion into the private lives of others. You're projecting your personality onto others. You know you are doing wrong in various ways, including your behaviour on here, and yet you simply carry on doing it. We're not all like that at all.

6 April 2012 08:27  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

len
Answer the question. Does faith in Christ mean that one is no longer held accountable for sin? One can have an abortion? Or does it mean that once one is born again by water and the spirit one never sins again?

carl
In Catholicism if one dies with a grevious sin unrepented then the Church teaches that Hell awaits. Certain sin is deemed so serious that it warrents formal exclsion from the Sacraments until there is reconciliation.

6 April 2012 08:35  
Blogger Alpha Draconis said...

@Dodo,

We have similar teachings on our world. According to the Holy book of the revelation truth of the Prophet of the Dragon it says :

"So it came to pass that Ver Vmesh was gripped by a great famine. So Jarkon went to the Prophet Srticus and asked to go to the forest for food. The prophet bade him be patient, for the Gods provideth for all who have faith. But Jarkon did not believe. So the prophet drew a line in the sand and told him, ’step across and you may do as you wish.’ So Jarkon did and left the village and feasted on wild berries.The fruit was bitter. It did not satisfy him. He longed to return to the village, but found that the line had widened to a great chasm. He called out to the Prophet in fear, but the Prophet said, ‘The line has not changed; it is you who have changed. Step across if you truly believe’ So Jarkon prayedith for forgiveness and took the first step and the hands of the Gods enveloped all those who welcomed him back"

6 April 2012 09:18  
Blogger len said...

Dodo.

Once one is born again ones past present and future sin is forgiven.This is a fact born out by scripture.

Is it possible for a born again believer to sin?..Yes.But only if one stops 'walking in the Spirit' and 'walks in the flesh' instead'. Does this mean that God 'disowns you'?.. certainly not!.But what that means is that when you sin(not if)you give access to Satan in your life. 'Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?(Romans 6:16).

So the answer to a sinning born again believer is to walk in the light, face the fact that you have been relying on your own efforts and not totally relying on the holy Spirit.

It is the Blood of Jesus which cleanses us from sin (not our confession to the 'Church'). 'But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.'( 1 John 1:7)

The danger we face when we 'walk in the flesh'( gratifying our sinful nature') is that we will experience a 'hardening of the Heart' and this will separate us from God, this is not God excluding us because we sin.God in fact expects us to sin if we fall back into self dependency.
The Love of God, the Grace of God, and the Mercy of God is much greater and wider than any of us can understand.He gives us mercy when all we deserve is condemnation.

6 April 2012 10:12  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

len

You are a closet Catholic, after all!

God Bless on this Holy Day.

6 April 2012 11:40  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Back in the 1970s I wrote to my MP to complain about open heart experiments done by a doctor on premature babies. One experimental group had the operation done under anaesthetic and the other group without an anaesthetic. I expected the doctor to be prosecuted. However it turned out that the experiments were done to find out if premature babies feel pain. The experiments proved conclusively that the babies operated on without anaesthetic did demonstrate a great deal more trauma and as a result anaesthesia was afterwards always used on premature babies. I approached my local doctor about this and he said "Yes, we used to do horrific things to premature babies believing they suffered no pain.

6 April 2012 11:41  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

len

Of course it's also possible that this Catholic is a closet "born againer" too. Maybe, just maybe, at their best, they are one and the same.

Go figure!

"Who loves ya, baby?" as the bald detective says.

6 April 2012 11:51  
Blogger len said...

Dodo I don`t doubt that some Catholics are' born again'.

Bless you.

6 April 2012 14:16  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

len
And I don't doubt that some "born againers" are Catholic in their hearts.

I dub you: Don Quixote for a day.

"And so, to sum it all up, I perceive everything I say as absolutely true, and deficient in nothing whatever, and paint it all in my mind exactly as I want it to be."

6 April 2012 14:26  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Alpha
A great tale of wisdom and insight. You lizards have soul, my friend.

May God Bless you and all your kind.

6 April 2012 14:31  
Blogger BrianSJ said...

http://www.artofeurope.com/macneice/mac1.htm
I am not yet born
In case it is new to some readers.

6 April 2012 15:10  
Blogger CSPB said...

@Danj0:

The donation campaign on behalf of BPAS is a sign of desperation. The few thousand
pounds raised by this evil scheme will not even pay for the salary of one of their highly
paid bureaucrats but will provide plenty of publicity for 40 Days for Life UK

6 April 2012 17:13  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

"The donation campaign on behalf of BPAS is a sign of desperation."

Desperation? What's there for the organisation or its supporters to be desperate about? In the UK, they have the law, established practice, and majority opinion on their side. It's just an irony that a bunch of religious nutters standing outside with placards etc is actually generating money and publicity for the charity.

6 April 2012 17:32  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

CSPB, you might want to know that DanJ0 is against abortion in certain circumstances. When it involves a ‘gay’ foetus, if a test was ever developed for that. Any other reason, and he doesn’t want to know. He’s a single issue type, you see. It’s hard to take him seriously at times...

6 April 2012 17:40  
Blogger CSPB said...

@DanJ0

It would seem that the nutters are those who give to BPAS. While claiming to offer "free services" this so called "charity" receives millions of UK tax dollars for abortions annually. They are already awash with money.

Actually, the placards used by anti abortion protesters are very effective at revealing the evil of abortion.

6 April 2012 17:47  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

CSPB, our one trick pony has gone back to his stall. He only normally comes out when there’s gay in the air, of that you can depend. More reliable than a crowing cock...

6 April 2012 17:53  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I see our resident racist, misogynist, homophobic bigot is looking for attention again.

6 April 2012 17:56  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Pennance: "It would seem that the nutters are those who give to BPAS."

I think it's more of a token gesture to stick a metaphorical two fingers up to the religious loonies outside.

6 April 2012 17:58  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Mr Pennance, can we get back to this alleged desperation? I'm intrigued why you think they're desperate.

6 April 2012 18:09  
Blogger Nowhere man said...

DanJ0 - you are one sick puppy!

http://bit.ly/I29wYx

6 April 2012 18:11  
Blogger CSPB said...

DanJ0 "What's there for the organisation or its supporters to be desperate about? In the UK, they have the majority opinion on their side."

This is merely a temporary situation. As the native inhabitants of the UK gradually abort themselves out of existence, they will be replaced by immigrants who do not share there penchant for abortion. Meanwhile, antiabortion tactics such as the 40 Days for Life campaign, which have been very successful elsewhere, will gradually take hold. What is ironic is the fact that the BPAS counter-demonstration received poor support, despite strong backing from newspapers such as the Guardian.

6 April 2012 18:14  
Blogger CSPB said...

NowhereMan

Yes, It's important that the public find out exactly what an abortionist does.

6 April 2012 18:32  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Mr Pennance, can we get back to this alleged desperation? I'm still intrigued why you think they're desperate.

6 April 2012 18:39  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Pennance: "Meanwhile, antiabortion tactics such as the 40 Days for Life campaign, which have been very successful elsewhere, will gradually take hold."

The UK is not at all like the USA despite the importing of some of the culture. Besides, why bother with the campaign if you believe that? If we're going to be taken over by Islam here in the UK then the issue you see will resolve itself without the need for people like you to impotently wave placards outside of clinics. You may even find that the new type of UK resident you think is on the horizon doesn't much like your religious beliefs whether or not they share a view about abortion with you.

6 April 2012 18:44  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Pennance: DanJ0 "What's there for the organisation or its supporters to be desperate about? In the UK, they have the majority opinion on their side.""

Also, if you wish to put words in quotes claiming they're mine then you should quote them properly. It's a matter of integrity, I think. What I wrote was this:

"In the UK, they have the law, established practice, and majority opinion on their side."

I don't know what it's like in the USA but academics over here think this sort of thing is very important. In fact, their academic reputations rely on it. You've done this before too, changing my words to suit yourself and attributing them to me.

6 April 2012 18:56  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Christ almighty, those images are worse than Belsen...

6 April 2012 18:57  
Blogger CSPB said...

@Danj0 said "If we're going to be taken over by Islam..."


I do not believe that. According to a report by the IPPR, 4.5 million of the UK's foreign-born residents claim to have a religious affiliation. Of these, around a quarter are Muslims while more than half are Christian, with Polish Catholics and African Pentecostals among the fastest-growing groups.

6 April 2012 18:57  
Blogger CSPB said...

Danj0: "You've done this before too, changing my words to suit yourself and attributing them to me."

You are only a moniker!

6 April 2012 19:01  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Pennance: "You are only a moniker!"

And that gives you permission to deliberately change my comments and attribute the result to me? Bizarre.

As for Polish immigrants, have you looked up (say) the respective total fertility rates for the UK and for Poland?

6 April 2012 19:11  
Blogger Alpha Draconis said...

@Dodo,

Thank you for your kind words!

Your Grace,

What you describe as abortion is, to the civilised galactic community a thing called "murder" and Dodo, Inspector and Carl Jacobs are correct in stating that it is wrong.

Our own Holy Book is quite clear :

"Ye shall not murder or defile that which commeth from the Gods. For the Gods doth createth in thy holy egg [or Womb- our book was written before contact with Humans!] that of life and whosoever destroyeth shuch life shall stand before the Creator God and unless repenteth in life, shall be forever dammed by Death".
(Book of the Holy Dranconis, Chapter 8 vs 16-"Dragon" in human English).

6 April 2012 19:16  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

The abortion statistics for Poland are quite interesting too if one goes back to (say) 1990 just before the law was change.

6 April 2012 19:23  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

www.justout.com/blog_archive/media/700-club-abortion-is-part-of-the-gay-agenda

6 April 2012 19:32  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Meanwhile, on what many Christians think is the holiest day in the calendar, the Inspector is behaving true to form again. It's nicely reminiscent of Christmas Eve when almost all Christians here were absent, presumably thinking holy things and possibly attending Midnight Mass if they were Catholic, apart from one or two notables trying to cause trouble all evening.

6 April 2012 19:40  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0. The Inspector is a soldier for Christ. Fighting evil – that’s you, or more specifically your blasted gay agenda.

Towing the line eh. Abortion is what your gay commanders approve of, seen enough dykes shouting the message in the past. Oh, gay foetus’ excepted of course. They are precious, what !

Jury still out as to what your true intentions are on this site. There is every indication you are a Stonewall placeman.

6 April 2012 20:06  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector, you're a complete loony, and getting worse. You even put Atlas to shame these days.

6 April 2012 20:34  
Blogger Simon Icke UK said...

I find Anne Milton's matter of fact opinion which seems to be based on flawed medical information; as stated by the Dept of Health which so readily seems to conclude, 'we need have no conscience in terminating unborn babies before 24 weeks as they feel no pain': What a disingenuous statement this is; based on nothing more than prejudiced science of medical professionals with a vested financial interest in protecting this industry: We know about the powerful and wealthy abortion lobbyists who continue to protect the financial interest of this UK callous and vile abortion industry; they clearly want no one interfering with the continued killing of human life, which in effect in many cases is operating 'abortion on demand' and therefore breaking the law; without conscience or any feeling that they are indeed killing a baby that no doubt does feel pain, as its life is 'snuffed out' for no more reason than it was a mere inconvenience in more than 97% of cases!
The unborn child has no value in our materialistic selfish society. But human killing is killing! Full stop. No matter how it is carried out and one of the ten commandments is 'thou shalt not kill'. Yet we kill more than 200,000 unborn babies every year in the UK and have done ever since the 1967 Abortion Act; this adds up to around 7 million UK abortions, on a par with the Nazi holocaust of WW2 and no less cold inhumanity. According to recent Daily Telegraph investigations the 1967 Abortion Act is clearly being abused; with spurious reasons used to abort 'unwanted' babies; sometimes simply because the baby is the wrong sex! There is an urgent need for much more transparency and for prosecutions where government inspectors find the law is being broken and there is indeed a criminal case to answer.

6 April 2012 20:46  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Yes, that would be it DanJ0. The Inspector is a madman. He recalls a similar indignation from you the last time he raised your true allegiance...

6 April 2012 20:48  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I think I must have been laughing. Didn't I take the piss out of you about the Protocols of the Elders of Zion? I think I did. I've met some berks on my travels but you're sizing up to be a top class berk and no mistake.

6 April 2012 21:03  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

You did not. The Inspector would never need mention that fraudulent anti Semitic work. Getting carried away a bit, aren’t we. It’s only an educated guess you are a placemen, but go ahead, sweat it out here, and desperately attempt to discredit your accuser....

6 April 2012 21:14  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Ah yes, it's here. I knew I'd taken the piss out of you about your Gay Agenda weirdness with it. Let me give you another dose of my 'indignation' over your fixation:

The Gay Agenda (UK version)
1. Be fabulous!
2. See 1

6 April 2012 21:27  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Speaking of being fabulous, I can remember the exact moment when I became gay. In fact, it was even caught on film here. ;)

6 April 2012 21:31  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

You wicked, though amusing, scoundrel. This is the Inspector signing off. You’ll just have to entertain yourself now, as there is no left to play with...

6 April 2012 21:50  
Blogger CSPB said...

@Danj0,

In 2010, one in every four children born in England and Wales was to a foreign-born mother –a total of 181,827 children. The Poles were resposible for less than 10% of this total.
Fertility by ethnic and religious groups in the UK, are described in a paper by
Sylvie Dubuc
. Figure 5 of this paper shows that the fertility of immigrant women has consistently been higher than that of UK-born women. I do not think Polish women figure very prominently in these statistics.

6 April 2012 22:13  
Blogger CSPB said...

However, it would be a simplism to assume that fertility rates in Poland correlate with fertility rates of Polish imigrants in the UK. The low Polish national fertility rate reflects the fact that Poles of child bearing age have left in huge numbers, many for the UK. This is evidenced by the high rate of births among recent immigrants .

Year Births in UK to Polish Mothers

2005 3,403 = 0.5% of all births
2006 6,620 = 1.0% of all births
2007 11,952 = 1.7% of all births
2008 16,101 = 2.3% of all birth
2009 18,159 = 2.6% of all birth
2010 19,762 = 2.7% of all birth

6 April 2012 22:14  
Blogger CSPB said...

Incidently, abortion was imposed on Poland by the communists. After the fall of communism, Poland outlawed abortion in nearly all circumstances and abortions fell from 100,000+ to less than 200 per year. This will eventually impact the Polish fertility rate.

6 April 2012 22:15  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

As it happens, DanJ0, I am concerned by this aggressive campaign addressed at clinics and at the women who go there. I have reservations about this type of action because it could be counter-productive. It expresses a legimate anger and does have a place as a witness against this crime. The homosexual community knows about this type of in your face demonstration and 'outing' people.

I am absolutely and unconditionally opposed to abortion and believe it is a Christian's duty to fight this evil. This fight has to be strategic and be based on a good understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of the opponent.

One weakness is the absence of proper counselling; another is making it clear the child in the womb is a person who can feel pain. These might slow the rate of abortions and even push the dates back when it is lawful. Another objective must be the properly understand what drives and draws to abortion and seek to tackle these things. Finally, the Christian Church must give a clear lead to its members.

I say use every lawful means available if is effective. The Inspector is correct it is a war. I'm just not convinced that this is helpful in this campaign although it does stand as a reminder Christians have passion about this wholescale murder of the innocent. A silent, dignified witness might be better.

6 April 2012 23:21  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

I agree standing outside clinics harassing women going for abortion is out dated, puts people's backs up and goes toward supporting their beliefs that all those who question abortion are freaks and nutters.

I think the way forward is for society to change how it views abortion and for it to be seen as a bit more taboo instead of the accepted norm. There needs to be a change in the collective social conscience to really value the potential of new life and that starts with valuing the family. But of course this is going against the current trends to individualise and tear apart the family unit in favour of communism.

Offering independent counselling to women will give them more options and information to be able to ensure they make the right choice for them rather than the conveyor belt abortion experience they get now. We have to promote sexual responsibility, just as the government changed people's attitudes towards drink driving for the better.

7 April 2012 00:15  
Blogger CSPB said...

The Way of Dodo the Dude said... "I am concerned by this aggressive campaign addressed at clinics... A silent, dignified witness might be better."

Dodo: Exactly which "aggressive campaign addressed at clinics" are you talking about?

Perhaps you have been taken in by BBC and the Guardian. In reality, it is BPAS that has been aggressively rallying the media and others to attack the London 40 Days for Life campaign.

7 April 2012 00:36  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

CSPB

I stand corrected - partially. Having researched this a bit more it would seem the cmpaign was, in the main, peaceful and dignified. However, using quasi pickett-line tactics and encircling women on their way into clinics, is not something I would agree with.

Be a presence, quietly and soberly representing the Christian voice. And do not keep a 'score card'.

7 April 2012 00:53  
Blogger CSPB said...

However, using quasi pickett-line tactics and encircling women on their way into clinics, is not something I would agree with.

Dodo
This sounds like a media invention. Any evidence?

7 April 2012 01:02  
Blogger CSPB said...

Dodo: Please read this eye witness account..

7 April 2012 01:13  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

CSPB, but it's not objective, now is it?

I thought this a good summary of the issues:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1325490/The-new-abortion-war-Could-Britain-follow-militant-US-pro-lifers.

7 April 2012 01:55  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

A true story before bed

My neice, in her 30's, had an abortion. A single, working parent and scared. We were on holiday when she told me. All I could do was take her in my arms while she sobbed her heart out. She said she was sorry and I said I knew she was. We cried together.

7 April 2012 03:16  
Blogger CSPB said...

Dodo, I was very sorry to hear of the tragedy of your niece. This is why it is so important to make abortion illegal. By the way, many who are suffering from the after effects of abortion have found the organization Rachel's Vineyard to be of great help.

7 April 2012 05:42  
Blogger CSPB said...

Dodo: You claim that the linked article is a "good" summary of the issues. I cannot agree.

While nominally about the 40 Days for life campaign, the photo in the article depicts a group of marchers at the
March for Life in Washington, typically attended by over 300,000 people. It would have more been natural to show
a picture of the 40 Days for Life campaign in London. However, a picture of people praying would fail to support
the articles calumnious narrative that 40 Days for Life is an aggressive organization.

The article states without evidence that over the past year, and with the emergence of the Tea Party Movement,
that pro-lifers have "increasingly turned to ­violence — fire-bombing abortion clinics, daubing them in congealed
blood ..." It claims that "67-year-old Dr George Tiller became the ninth abortion ­doctor or clinical worker to
be ­murdered by pro-life extremists during the past 15 years"

The controversial Dr George Tiller was in fact murdered by a lone fanatic and is the first abortionist to be
killed in eleven years. —this is hardly evidence of the trend claimed by the article. Moreover, his murder,
was widely condemed by prolife organizations.

In reality, many more abortionists have been murdered by abortionists than by pro life extremists. According to
statistics at abortionviolence.com many abortionists have been
convicted of murder and manslaughter ― of their wives, of their patients, and of other abortionists. Murder in
the abortion industry is common, especially in late term clinics. See for example, the recent case
Kermit Gosnell
who is alleged to have killed large numbers of newborn infants by severing their spinal cords with scissors.

7 April 2012 05:48  
Blogger CSPB said...

It is abortionists who are the real extremists, as evidenced by cases such as the notoriously bizarre Northern
Illinois Women’s Center. According to Lifesite News the owner of this facility has been known to mock pro-lifers while dressed in a devil costume, and
emerge from the facility wielding a running chainsaw to drown out pro-lifers. The windows of the clinic contain
hanged and crucified rubber chickens.

The linked article complains that "Every day, campaigners picket outside abortion clinics, brandishing
enormous photographs of blood-drenched foetuses
". However, the 40 days for life movement, the subject of the
article, does not, as a matter of policy, brand photographs of blood-drenched foetuses. While it is true that the
use realistic photos of abortion may cause some discomfort it does save many unborn babies.

The article also alleges that the Canadian Centre for Bioethical Reform compare women who have abortions to Nazis. This is an outright lie. According to the CBR website,

"By placing abortion images alongside traditionally recognized forms of genocide we are expanding the context in which people think about abortion. Throughout history, we as a society have a sad legacy of dehumanizing those who get in our way or have something we want. Once a people group is dehumanized, it becomes very easy to justify their mistreatment and destruction. Such is the current plight of the unborn child."

The article claims that Marie Stopes help tens of thousands of women who are facing emotional or financial
hardship, or who are pregnant as a result of rape or incest. One does not see how killing innocent babies can be ethically justified by any of these situations.

In summary, this article is just one more example of media bias.

7 April 2012 05:58  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "I am absolutely and unconditionally opposed to abortion and believe it is a Christian's duty to fight this evil."

Well, that's fine. You must do as your conscience tells you and go where your personal religious beliefs lead you. However, you must realise that you're in a minority on this.

Obviously, as a liberal, I think you should have a platform to express your views, present your arguments, and try to convince others of your position. People should have the option to look at your position and reject it if they find it unconvincing.

I'm usually misrepresented on this subject, you know. I think foetuses have ethical value and that the value increases as the pregnancy goes on. It's a gradualist position and it's the mainstream one.

I'm not actually pro-abortion, though I think the procedure should be available. However, I'd be happier if no abortions actually took place. Perhaps this is a surprise to you?

Third trimester abortions should be extremely rare. I wouldn't necessarily argue against a reduction in the 24 week point either. I also think aborting a 23 week foetus is a significant ethical harm.

I'm just putting that out to refresh some memories, I'm not minded to argue the ethical foundations of all this again. If some people still need some opposition to push against then look elsewhere.

7 April 2012 07:38  
Blogger len said...

If I was the only Christian left on this Planet it would be my duty (and my privilege) to speak God`s Word.

If that would mean opposition from the entire world then I would gladly accept that as a small price to pay for speaking the truth.

7 April 2012 07:57  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

CSPB
I acknowledge the amount of time and research you have dedicated to this matter. There is clearly an issue about the views of pro-lifers being misrepresented in the media. This is something that must be addressed. That said, one murder or one act of violence in the name of God over this issue is unacceptable.

DanJ0
It does not surprise me you are opposed to abortion and would prefer it if they did not take place. You were raised as a Christian, I think, and will have acquired a sense of value for all life from this.

In terms of the 'market place' of ideas and opinion, if what CSPB says is accurate, then the mainstream media, who help opinion and shape ideas, is not acting in a liberal manner.

7 April 2012 08:51  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

CSPB

My niece asked if I "hated her" and if God did too? How could I, I love her; and think how immeasurable God's love is. She needed to know this to forgive and love herself.

(Counselling doesn't always help)

7 April 2012 11:16  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. Please accept the Inspector’s sincere regret as to your niece's experience. He can barely appreciate the regret she must suffer.

CSPB. The Inspector’s attitude to the killing of abortionists is it’s their nemesis. We must appreciate that the execution of evil doers has a purifying and cleansing effect. A fitting closure to a wicked life. Good for the morale. It's what God would expect of us. The sunshine after the rain, if you will...

7 April 2012 13:11  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "It does not surprise me you are opposed to abortion and would prefer it if they did not take place. You were raised as a Christian, I think, and will have acquired a sense of value for all life from this."

That's not the reason at all. I had a fairly normal Church of England upbringing. That is, I know the bible stories and attended church for things like Remembrance Sunday. As children, we weren't taught theology or anything particularly deep. It's just awareness; familiarity.

No, I am not opposed to abortion. I would just rather it didn't happen though. In ethical terms, it may be the least worst outcome when applying our limited foresight. My value of life, all life on a spectrum from plant to non-human animal to human animal, is partly based on sympathy and empathy. Nothing to do with religion.

8 April 2012 08:30  
Blogger The Way of Fais Dodo the Dude said...

And the capacity for love, understanding and empathy comes from where ....?

8 April 2012 14:32  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Genes.

8 April 2012 15:20  
Blogger Oswin said...

Oswin: 'Designer' ? ;o)

8 April 2012 17:39  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0. Genes eh. 98% isn’t it, us and chimpanzees.

The follow inspired by a story the Inspector heard about Dublin Zoo from years ago...

Keeper: Give that chimp your lit cigarette, and he’ll show you a trick.

Visitor: Alright....Good grief, he’s smoking it.

Keeper: Yes, me and the lads taught him that.

Visitor: I suppose you’re going to tell me now he can also read a paper and drink a pint.

Keeper: No, that’s all he does.

8 April 2012 18:18  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Oh lordy, here we go again.

8 April 2012 21:10  
Blogger The Way of Fais Dodo the Dude said...

DanJ0
"Oh lordy" is definately camp. Funny, but camp.

Genes? The 'selfish gene', as in it's in my best interests to treat others with decency and in return they'll do the same to me? Or as in necessary for parents to care for their young?

Scientists cannot explain compassion in humans as genetically inherited. It is qualitatively different to animals.

I prefer the explanation in '2001 - A Space Odyssey' to genes!

9 April 2012 02:48  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

""Oh lordy" is definately camp. Funny, but camp"

Say it in (say) a Welsh accent.

"Genes? The 'selfish gene', as in it's in my best interests to treat others with decency and in return they'll do the same to me?"

Genes, as in the things which collectively define our species.

"Genes? The 'selfish gene', as in it's in my best interests to treat others with decency and in return they'll do the same to me?"

Hmmm.

9 April 2012 07:14  
Blogger uk Fred said...

I wonder whether anyone can tell me why, if the absence of electrical activity in the brain is used to indicate death, is there any scientific reason why electrical activity in the brain cannot be used to indicate life?

While I am generally against abortion, I know of a lady the church I attend who has had one. Her choice was her life, or probably no life, and she already had two children under 5. I think that the blanket condemnation of all women who have had an abortion is unfair. In that position, what choice would we have made?

9 April 2012 09:35  
Blogger uk Fred said...

Interesting to see that Yahoo's Ian dunt, in Talking Politics on 5th April 2012 has a headline that claims "Anti-abortion extremists are in the heart of government".

That's not what it looks like from where I am located.

9 April 2012 11:11  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Fred. Her choice was her life, or probably no life, and she already had two children under 5.

Yes, this is just the kind of hysteria we get from women who want everything ‘just so’. Let’s hope her husband doesn’t annoy her too much, lest he be divorced by her. Afterwards, let’s say he makes a nuisance of himself, perhaps wanting access to his his surviving children. Under that woman’s morals, a contract killing could be entertained.

Any women reading this will have an ideal form of discipline for an unruly child. “Behave, or you’re dead. I’ve killed one of you already, and I’ll kill again if I have to”. “Besides, it’s well past bedtime so off you go, and give mummy some peace”

9 April 2012 13:26  
Blogger Lakester91 said...

DanJ0,

I think you misunderstand what exactly genes are. They are merely coding for proteins (and some active RNA molecules). For one, most of the work on proteins is done either pre or post-transcription, meaning that we are not defined by our genes, more by what we do with them.

Genes do not allow us to feel emotion as emotion is a perception. It is important to distinguish sensation from perception because they are two very different things. Two people maybe have exactly the same pain stimulation, but one may be writhing on the floor and the other barely noticing it. The stimulation of pain receptors is the sensation and the actual pain is the perception. The image that we see when we look at things is a made up picture to make sense of the stimulation of the retina by certain wavelengths of light. The perception in that case is not something tangible and not something we can say is 'down to genes'.

Why do I say this? Because it's not as simple as to say that emotions and motivations are 'down to genes'. It is a cop-out answer that doesn't explain anything. It presumes a very simple answer to a highly complex question. The fact is that one can never prove perception; it is transcendent to human understanding. We can and have studied various perceptions such as pain, sight and love but we will never know how electrical signals can be turned into images, sensations and emotions.

9 April 2012 13:49  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9 April 2012 14:02  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

"Why do I say this? Because it's not as simple as to say that emotions and motivations are 'down to genes'. It is a cop-out answer that doesn't explain anything."

You may have noticed I've been rather terse in response to Dodo when he asked "And the capacity for love, understanding and empathy comes from where ....?". Note the word "capacity" there, by the way.

What he's actually implying of course is that these things come from his ungrounded hypothesis of a theistic god. I'm an atheist. From where else would I think these things come?

This is not a technical discussion, it's just the usual verbal tennis between Dodo and me. I'm very well aware of the difficulties and subtleties in the philosophy of the mind and the strangeness of consciouness which we, and apparently other non-human animals, have.

9 April 2012 14:03  
Blogger CSPB said...

uk Fred,

There is scant scientific basis for using electrical activity in the brain to indicate death (please read the article "Brain Death"—The Hoax That Won't Die. On the other hand there are standard biological criteria for life. Electrical activity in the brain is not one of them.

9 April 2012 16:41  
Blogger Sackerson said...

The pain criterion is a red herring. If that were the only test, it would be acceptable to kill an unborn child at a much later stage, after administering anaesthetic.

9 April 2012 21:07  

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