Tuesday, April 03, 2012

Cameron and Clegg betray the nation’s trust on civil liberties

It is being widely trailed throughout the MSM that the Government intends to announce in the Queen's Speech their plans to resurrect Labour's authoritarian data-gathering programme; that the Cameron/Clegg coalition intends to oblige internet service providers and telephone companies to monitor and store the contents of every website you visit and every email, text phone conversation you make. There are caveats - principally that we have not yet seen the full proposals or heard the speech. But voices of opposition within the Coalition are tending to talk about the need for 'adequate safeguards' and/or 'judicial oversight': ie, how this beast of a database may be administered fairly, rather than whether it should be created at all.

This is a profoundly concerning development. In his 2010 ‘Invitation to Join the Government of Great Britain’, David Cameron pledged unequivocally ‘to restore our civil liberties’. Under that precise heading, he said: ‘We will scale back Labour’s database state and protect the privacy of the public’s information.’ He wrote:
Labour have subjected Britain’s historic freedoms to unprecedented attack. They have trampled on liberties and, in their place, compiled huge databases to track the activities of millions of perfectly innocent people, giving public bodies extraordinary powers to intervene in the way we live our lives. The impact of this has been profound and far-reaching. Trust has been replaced by suspicion. The database state is a poor substitute for the human judgement essential to the delivery of public services. Worse than that, it gives people false comfort that an infallible central state is looking after their best interests. But the many scandals of lost data, leaked documents and database failures have put millions at risk. It is time for a new approach to protecting our liberty...

We will take further steps to protect people from unwarranted intrusion by the state, including:

• cutting back intrusive powers of entry into homes, which have been massively extended under Labour;

• curtailing the surveillance powers that allow some councils to use anti-terrorism laws to spy on people making trivial mistakes or minor breaches of the rules;

• requiring Privacy Impact Assessments of any proposal that involves data collection or sharing; and,

• ensuring proper Parliamentary scrutiny of any new powers of data-sharing.
In his 2010 Liberal Democrat manifesto, Nick Clegg talked similarly of ‘restoring your freedoms’:
Liberal Democrats believe it is an individual’s right to live their lives as they see fit, without discrimination, with personal privacy, and with equal rights before the law.

Decades of Labour and Conservative rule have overthrown some of the basic principles of British justice and turned Britain into a surveillance state.

Liberal Democrats will protect and restore your freedoms. We will:

...End plans to store your email and internet records without good cause
And in the synthesised chimera that is the joint Coalition Agreement, we read:
3. CIVIL LIBERTIES
We will be strong in defence of freedom. The Government believes that the British state has become too authoritarian, and that over the past decade it has abused and eroded fundamental human freedoms and historic civil liberties. We need to restore the rights of individuals in the face of encroaching state power, in keeping with Britain’s tradition of freedom and fairness. We will implement a full programme of measures to reverse the substantial erosion of civil liberties and roll back state intrusion...

• We will end the storage of internet and email records without good reason.
Now, while ‘good reason’ admits an undoubted degree of latitude, the unequivocal commitment to ‘roll back state intrusion’ constituted a pledge to rebalance Labour’s ‘surveillance state’ by limiting its power and reasserting personal liberty and the right to privacy. We were assured that this Government would take a fundamentally different approach to Labour. We were assured that our personal information belongs to us, not the state.

We do not live in Soviet Russia, Communist China or Islamist Iran. And by ‘We’, of course, His Grace means the British. If you happen to be visiting His Grace’s blog from Russia, China or Iran, then, of course, you probably live there. His Grace sometimes forgets that he read internationally. In fact, checking the Google Analytics stats for the past year, His Grace has received 1,793 visits from Russia, 99 from China (with a further 1,777 from Hong Kong), and 36 from the Islamic Republic of Iran. So, except for these 3,705 brave individuals, we do not live in Soviet Russia, Communist China or Islamist Iran. And because Russia is no longer particularly soviet, and not all of China is Communist, and Iran is not particularly Islamic… oh, forget it.

The point is that it is absolutely none of the Government’s damned business if His Grace’s readers in the UK wish to log in every day for their daily bread and send him the occasional missive or phone him on some important matter. And if GCHQ do begin to snoop on our email, watch our web browsing and monitor our phone calls with precisely the same invasive vigour and lust for surveillance as was proposed by New Labour, then David Cameron is going back on his word. And so is Nick Clegg. And so is the whole Coalition. They will have unilaterally decided that we are all under suspicion all of the time; we are all perpetually guilty. Big Brother will truly be upon us.

It’s all happening, of course, under the guise of ‘public safety’ in an age of global terrorism. This professing Conservative and Liberal-Democrat coalition is neither conservative nor liberal. And His Grace is beginning to agree with the Archbishop of Canterbury that it is not particularly democratic. In fact, since both parties are implementing policy which they opposed in their respective manifestos, and which was jointly repudiated in the Coalition Agreement, His Grace is struggling to understand what makes them believe they have a mandate to read his emails, monitor his internet browsing or listen in to his phone conversations.

We all know how this will end. Those powers acquired by the state under the pretext of terrorism will eventually be used by government departments and local authorities to monitor our financial transactions, tax affairs and other aspects of our private lives. Michael Portillo assures us:
"I, having been been in government, have every reason for believing that the government routinely abuses the powers it has. It's not a matter of the last resort, it's the first resort. It isn't something that happens exceptionally, it happens all the time."
How will anyone ever again be able with to bring a lawsuit against the Government with confidence?

109 Comments:

Blogger Sam Vega said...

"it is absolutely none of the Government’s damned business if His Grace’s readers in the UK wish to log in every day for their daily bread and send him the occasional missive or phone him on some important matter."

Absolutely right. But it would be the government's business if some people use the same technology for less innocent purposes, and it might be the case that the government currently needs to have a look at both types of communication in order to differentiate them. Cameron's and Clegg's change of opinion on this is probably down to their untested and naive world-view bumping up against reality.

3 April 2012 10:53  
Blogger Anoneumouse said...

EU Data Retention Directive 2006/24/EC
Or as implemented in the UK by Statutory Instrument

The Data Retention (EC Directive) Regulations 2009 no.859

3 April 2012 10:54  
Blogger Nowhere man said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

3 April 2012 10:59  
Blogger Nowhere man said...

Its the price of multiculturalism dear boy.

Now we have the entire worlds disputes played out on British soil, and minorities have developed "taking offence" to a new level, the only way the population can be held down and kept from each others throats is by Orwellian levels of surveillance and the criminalising free speech.

(prev comment removed due to typo)

3 April 2012 11:00  
Blogger IanCad said...

YG,
As the seeds of war are sown by our inaction to defend The Falkland Islands, they are further spread by our utter failure to stem the tide of snoops. Nothing will stop these wretches from infesting every aspect of our lives unless we are prepared to fight for our liberties as did our ancestors.
Nothing could be more apropos at this time than a quote from Jefferson--
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

3 April 2012 11:11  
Blogger IanCad said...

YG,
As the seeds of war are sown by our inaction to defend The Falkland Islands, they are further spread by our utter failure to stem the tide of snoops. Nothing will stop these wretches from infesting every aspect of our lives unless we are prepared to fight for our liberties as did our ancestors.
Nothing could be more apropos at this time than a quote from Jefferson--
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

3 April 2012 11:12  
Blogger IanCad said...

Sorry for the double post YG.

3 April 2012 11:14  
Blogger graham wood said...

This arrogant duo forget one essential truth, namely that in the end the politicos are answerable to us, not vice-versa.
The reckoning will surely come at some point again in the electoral cycle.
For all three main parties the writing was yet again on the wall as shown by the Bradford By-election result. Maybe an aberration to some degree, but still an example of "a plague on all your houses".
Someone remind me - which political party had to cancel its Spring Conference due to lack of interest?

3 April 2012 11:46  
Blogger non mouse said...

Well they sure aren't reading anything nice about themselves. But perhaps they take that as a compliment.

btw ... I'm puzzled as to why anyone thinks we can sort out big bro' via the ballot box. Corruption and candidate choice aside, if this lot are in charge of the counting, let's remember they're too stupid to count.

3 April 2012 12:34  
Blogger bluedog said...

Your Grace

There is something wrong when the Mukhabarat grows from a man and a girl 100 years ago to one of the biggest government agencies with a palatial headquarters.

Given the common policies of Lib/Lab/Con, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that, George Galloway excepted, the UK is already a one-party State.

So, does the State run the Mukhabarat or is it the other way around?

3 April 2012 12:41  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
I am told by some that new Political Parties don't work in the UK. Just when are we going to be able to challenge the failings of the Bi-Polar system that has gone on for far too long? We were delighted to see New Labour get their comeuppance but now can't believe how horrific the Coalition is behaving. With no effective opposition from within or without the Commons they pursue their policies with impunity. Even without the Liberals I suspect the PM would behave just the same.

3 April 2012 12:54  
Blogger Emlyn Uwch Cych said...

Can't you still get anonymisers and encrypters? Otherwise, just borrow your neighbour's computer to read Cranmer, ond visit the local library or web café.

3 April 2012 13:28  
Blogger Owl said...

YG,

Lib, Lab and Con are Fabian fronts now so I think that nothing will change until it happens by a major upheaval.

Manipulating the masses is almost a fine art these days.

You have a very interesting blog which in future will be spied on, or even closed down if these people find that you have too big an influence. They will reason that you qualify as a (potential) terrorist/agitator and spin that to the public in the name of the public good.

Dave and Nick sold their souls a long time ago. If they hadn't then they wouldn't have got the job in the first place.

Could it possibly happen that more people will start to wake up?

3 April 2012 13:42  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Dr Cranmer asked
" ...what makes them believe they have a mandate to read his emails, monitor his internet browsing or listen in to his phone conversations."

Well, because you just might be plotting treason against Her Majesty the Queen.

It's definition of good reason that's the key. And, thankfully, we do have the 'rule of law' and even appeal to ECHR. Just imagine if the internet had been around in Tudor and Elizabethan times.

Today things happen so much more speedily. Think, the Reformation could have been nipped in the bud by the authorities; all the plots undone. A good thing or a bad thing? Then again, would full use of these powers diminish the chances of another Twin Towers or Lockerbie?

Why should it (if it does) surprise anyone that government's "abuse" their powers? To "some extent" we need them to but with "good reason"

Ps
Shucks; does this mean even less scope for polynominal guises?

3 April 2012 17:13  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

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3 April 2012 17:40  
Blogger Edward Spalton said...

My Dear Way of the Dodo, the treason against the Queen's Majesty was successful nearly 40 years ago when Heath got a small majority for entering the EEC, voted by MPs who had not had a chance to read the treaty. Every successive government has compounded the crime.

The government is only complying with an EU Directive which will eventually be enforced, one way or another, as long as we remain in the EU. If no UK Parliament votes for it the Commission can easily get an ECJ order to insist on official storage and access to all electronic data, regardless of Queen, Lords & Commons.

3 April 2012 17:41  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

At last I can completely support the headline article. Hurrah!

3 April 2012 17:41  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Good Lord ! This is the kind of legislation you call upon during a national emergency. Only to be in place temporarily. To be reviewed weekly. We don’t have weekly terrorist bombings. The eastern European mafia doesn’t control everything and there is no active sedition taking place. But there is uncomfortable criticism of our damn government, which is where the Inspector suggests we’ll find ‘interested parties’ in what CGHQ reveal.

Supportive on the internal security service as he is, the Inspector is convinced this is a step too far. Indeed, baby and bath water, what !

Mention has been made that this is a result of our (…failed…) mutlicultural society, to use that disgusting word. Nonsense. If you capture an Islamic terrorist, then bloody well throw him out of the country. Even if he was born here. The terrorist child of two Pakistani parents is himself a Pakistani. Even if he was born in Buckingham palace…

3 April 2012 18:14  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector
Even if he was born in Buckingham palace….

Do you mean is? Bound to happen one day soon. And how do we define nationhood? I heard a scurrious rumour suggesting the Queen is really German. How dare people say such things? But what if it were true?

3 April 2012 18:24  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

^scurrilous^

3 April 2012 18:50  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. We are talking here of convicted terrorists. If the Inspector had his way, their allegiances would be academic – they’d be on the end of a rope. And if Pakistan won’t take them back, they can spend the rest of their lives in an immigration holding camp for all the Inspector cares. Have to take a strong line on this you know, we’ve already lost innocent 52 souls in the London blasts...

The UK is NOT some ethnic dumping ground !

3 April 2012 19:07  
Blogger len said...

Of course the perfect way to keep complete 'tabs'on anyone is to insert a microchip on their person.

I wonder how long will it be?.

3 April 2012 19:50  
Blogger Hereward said...

The Big Society withers on the vine and the Big Brother Society blossoms in its place.

Why is Cameron doing the opposite of what he pledged in 2010? Who has he had dinner with lately? Who is pulling his strings? This surveillance proposal has the hallmark of the Stasi so he might as well rebrand the Home Office as the Ministry for State Security. This is all about protecting the State not us. The EUSSR must be proud of him.

How on earth can we lecture the likes of China and Iran about treatment of their citizens when a British PM proposes to violate the privacy of the innocent in pursuit of the guilty? The end is being used to justify the means.

Big Ben is striking 13.

3 April 2012 20:07  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Mr Spalton
As you know I was making a historical allusion to the past behaviour of our host's avatar and pondering the impact of surveillance on past and future events. Governments and organisations have always sought to protect themselves and their subjects, although the two objectives sometimes become confused.

Inspector
I agree with thesentiments and trust my earlier comments convey this. I could not be so ruthless as you. I take it you would support government's using every means at their disposal to monitor terrorists?

Hereward
Where would you draw the line between individual privacy and the duty of the government to protect the public and the vulnerable?

3 April 2012 20:39  
Blogger anna anglican said...

Your Grace,

Why did I ever vote Conservative?

First the failed veto of the Eu treaty as dictated by merkosy and the huns, then the granny tax, then the sausage roll tax, then the gerry can farce, the privitisation of the NHS and the decision to do a reverse robin hood- reduce the tax on the rich and take from the poor! We are all clearly in this together!

The attack presented here upon our freedom is more important that the gay marriage issue (ever since the magna carter and the glorious revolution) is under attack!! And from people who should know better. But which tory could we replace Camerfool with?

3 April 2012 20:40  
Blogger anna anglican said...

@Dodo,

oooh, your now like a bald egale or something...

3 April 2012 20:41  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

A Red Kite - have you no education Anna?

3 April 2012 21:13  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Certainly, Dodo. As things stand, our superb security services have stopped us being blown from pillar to post with the powers available to them now.

Anna. Tonight's serious business as provided by the Archbishop is strictly for the chaps you know, but well done for taking an interest with you ‘little woman’ contribution !!

Toodle pip...

3 April 2012 21:15  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector
Well said, Sir.

3 April 2012 21:21  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Your Grace,

More rot from this miserable excuse for a Cabinet! When will be rid of this pile of bird droppings?

3 April 2012 21:23  
Blogger Alpha Draconis said...

@Dodo and Inspector,

Indeed why does his Grace allow mere women to post on this blog? It is a man's affair to talk and discuss politics and other serious matters.

3 April 2012 21:24  
Blogger anna anglican said...

Because Kavanagh women give birth to real men.

3 April 2012 21:37  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Lavendon said ...

"a pile of bird droppings

That is a birdist remark and soon to be illiegal under the Equality Act.

3 April 2012 21:40  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Inspector; Don't be so patronising of the ladies. Mrs Pankhurst said it was OK for them to have a say.

3 April 2012 21:44  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Alpha saked ...

"Indeed why does his Grace allow mere women to post on this blog?"

Because the Bish hosts a catholic (small 'c') and tolerant site where all are welcome.

3 April 2012 21:44  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

“The women’s suffrage movement is only the small end of the wedge. If we allow women to vote it will mean the loss of social structure and the rise of every liberal cause under the sun. Women are well represented by their fathers, brothers and husbands.”
(Winston Churchill)

3 April 2012 21:47  
Blogger Alpha Draconis said...

@Anna Anglican!

Spoken like a true Daughter of the Kavanagh Alliance! I, a loyal solider of the Alpha Draconis Empire salute you!

3 April 2012 21:49  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Those who want to do harm will always find a way. This serves no other purpose other than to alienate the British population and is an abuse of power.

How long before the tyrannical state start telling us what to do and we get the loudspeaker crackling to life at 6 a.m. “Come on get up, Get up, time to go to work, arbeit macht frei”. I'm beginning to think some of Atlas's conspiracy theories are right.

3 April 2012 21:50  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
Women have more reason to be concerned than blokes about internet spying. They spend much more time talking and writing on face book etc. and ordering contraband clothing items that their men folk don't know about and they might get found out about their fiendish plots with their other women folk.

3 April 2012 21:51  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

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3 April 2012 21:51  
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3 April 2012 21:51  
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3 April 2012 21:51  
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3 April 2012 21:52  
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3 April 2012 21:52  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

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3 April 2012 21:52  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

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3 April 2012 21:52  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

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3 April 2012 21:52  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

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3 April 2012 21:52  
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3 April 2012 21:52  
Blogger Hereward said...

Dodo@20:39

Any line I might choose to draw was crossed a while back.

Vulnerability is part of the price of freedom. If we consent to dystopian surveillance believing that it will improve security for the vulnerable we delude ourselves.

3 April 2012 21:52  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

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3 April 2012 21:52  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

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3 April 2012 21:52  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

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3 April 2012 21:52  
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3 April 2012 21:53  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Good show Integrity and Dodo. Never let it be said that real men, not these effeminate types mind you, don’t have the little woman’s best interest at heart...

Anna. Abandon this lesbian nonsense and surrender yourself to men immediately. You could be a granny in 20 years. Now, that would be nice. Babies to knit for...

3 April 2012 21:56  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Will someone please pray for my finger. It seems to have developed a stutter!

3 April 2012 22:01  
Blogger anna anglican said...

A woman is like a tea bag. It's only when she's in hot water that you realize how strong she is!

3 April 2012 22:03  
Blogger anna anglican said...

@Inspector- the day I take advice from you is the day that hell freezes over!

3 April 2012 22:06  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Integrity
I totally agree, my good man. Saying it once,maybe twice, will suffice though!

(Right click on the delete icon -bottom left - select 'open in new window' and delete.)

Inspector
A seer our dear Winnie, a seer. If only the men had paid him more heed and had the chutzpah to resist women. Liik what its led to.

3 April 2012 22:06  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

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3 April 2012 22:10  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Anna

A real woman is a fragrant, freshly picked tea leaf. A tea bag is a quick and cheap means of refeshment.

Have you studied the 'Tea Ritual'? You should. It epitomises authentic womenhood.

3 April 2012 22:11  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Integrity. Worst case of ‘vibration white finger’ the Inspector has seen in a long time.

On the subject of ‘finger’, you can do a lot better than that Anna. Be a woman...

3 April 2012 22:20  
Blogger anna anglican said...

Inspector, Doodles,

Follow the link below to see how real women fight ( and prizes to see if you can guess which one is my sis!!).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5904ltVMfI&feature=related

3 April 2012 22:28  
Blogger Alpha Draconis said...

@Anna Anglican,

My guess is either the soldier with the snooker cue or the one at 1.20?

Ahh the Israeli Defence Force women- feared throughout the galaxy as tough and strong! One of the few human females who can fight with a Draconis and live to tell the tale! My life at your command Madam Kavanagh...

3 April 2012 22:38  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Anna: you do not have permission to call me Doodles. It is a ploy to undermine my manhood. Desist!

3 April 2012 22:41  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Ps
As for the video, it simply reinforces one's view women should stay at home, raise children and look after the old and frail.

3 April 2012 22:46  
Blogger len said...

A man(or men) who has to continually assert his masculinity probably has a great deal of uncertainty about it!.

3 April 2012 22:58  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector

It's the way you tell 'em!

I'm thinking screen play, an adaptation of the 'The Man Who Be King'.

Our two heroes recivilising a lost people. And because we are Catholic, none of the Masonic, protestant nonsense of Connery and Caine.

There's a fortune to be made, my man.

3 April 2012 22:59  
Blogger len said...

Dodo what has happened to your head.?

Have you been partially plucked?.You seem to look a bit startled.

3 April 2012 23:01  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

len: Catholics never engage in partial plucking.

3 April 2012 23:17  
Blogger Alpha Draconis said...

Dodo,

I beg to differ, as do your superiors on the Dodo High Council! At the instigation of Torah Prime Minister David Solomon, who had invited the freedom loving nations to a conference at New Jerusalem, has been able to proclaim a new treaty organization that will protect the galaxy against those seeking to conquer it.

The signatories are:

1. The American Intergalactic Group
2. The Republic of Earth
3. The Earth Union of Sovereign Star Republics
4. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Mars & the British Space Empire
5. The Alpha Draconis Imperia
6. The Oncanan Republic
7. The Norfolk Guardianship
8. The Mercian& Balti Kingdoms
9. The Danjo Rainbow
10. The Lavendonian Communion
11. The Kavanagh Alliance
12. The Holy Order of the Dodo
13. The K'hari Union
14. Kingdom of the Odin
15. The Srinagar Temple
16.The Torah Ark
17. The Celtic Confederacy

As Prime Minister Ralph Calvert said at the press conference:

"To ensure the peaceful development of nations, free from coercion, the British Space Empire has taken a leading part in establishing the Galactic Treaty Organization.

The Galactic Treaty Organization is designed to make possible lasting freedom and independence for all its members. We shall not realize our objectives, however, unless we are willing to help free peoples to maintain their free institutions and their national integrity against aggressive movements that seek to impose upon them totalitarian regimes.

This is no more than a frank recognition that totalitarian regimes imposed upon free peoples, by direct or indirect aggression, undermine the foundations of international peace, and hence the security of the British Space Empire.

The peoples of a number of countries of the world have recently had totalitarian regimes forced upon them against their will. The British Space Empire has made frequent protests against coercion and intimidation in violation of the Shadow Proclamation.

At the present moment in galactic history nearly every nation must choose between alternative ways of life. The choice is too often not a free one.

One way of life is based upon the will of the majority, and is distinguished by free institutions, representative government, free elections, and guarantees of individual liberty, freedom of speech and religion, and freedom from political oppression.

The second way of life is based upon the will of a minority forcibly imposed upon the majority. It relies upon terror and oppression, a controlled press and radio, fixed elections, and the suppression of personal freedoms. This will not stand. The British Space Empire will continue to be the arsenal of Imperial Democracy"

3 April 2012 23:39  
Blogger Roy said...

Why is it that the more "human rights" we supposedly have, the less freedom we have?

3 April 2012 23:42  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

Doddles, in an earlier thread when I informed you of the Ancient Egyptian custom of shaving ones eyebrows to signify mourning for the loss of a cat... it was not suggested that you shave your entire head. Once again you display your propensity for extreme behaviour.

Your views about women are very outmoded and chauvinistic.It is true that it must be very threatening for some men to realise that women are not only superior in intellect but also in many cases equal in physical strength as well.This is the 21st century and as much as you and the Inspector fantasise about the Middle Ages , it has long since past.

Especially in this time of history with fluctuating gender roles etc it is very important for a male heterosexual to possess highly developed social skills and to have a deep understanding of the how the female works. This is no mean feat. It takes dedication. The study of the female is a complex and intricate science,God's best and most challenging gift to the world.As life is perpetuated throught the female of the species..a woman deserves the best of everything a man can offer her ( complete devotion).It is God's will.It has inspired all the great art of world civilisations.

Doddles you need to be taken in hand and guided gently to enlightenment.

4 April 2012 02:59  
Blogger Nowhere man said...

len said...
A man(or men) who has to continually assert his masculinity probably has a great deal of uncertainty about it!.

The same could be said about Protestants...

Try the deep serenity and truth of Catholicism and you should find peace.

You know you want to..

4 April 2012 07:49  
Blogger len said...

Nowhere man, Why would I want to deny the freedom that Christ gave me and place myself under the bondage of Catholicism.?.

'For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.'(Galatians 5:1)

4 April 2012 07:56  
Blogger IanCad said...

From most of the comments on this thread I can only conclude that liberty is, in general, held as but a secondary passion. It would be a light thing for a government, if it had the mind, to mark and monitor all its subjects. Withold the right of commerce from the non-compliant and there may be some stamping of feet and spilling of tea. That would be all.

Were I an Argentinian and had read the comments on the previous post I would conclude that we can take back The Malvinas anytime we wish.

4 April 2012 08:15  
Blogger non mouse said...

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4 April 2012 11:08  
Blogger non mouse said...

Mr. Cad @ 08:15: [....]I would conclude that we can take back The Malvinas anytime we wish. If you imply that RCs can take back protestants in the same way, forget it. The RCs who've set themselves up on this blog have put me off for good - and other comments suggest I'm not the only one.

If you refer instead to the topic of the thread, then one comment has an ominous ring:It would be a light thing for a government, if it had the mind, to mark and monitor all its subjects. I've been wondering for some years when the mark of the Beast will manifest itself. That's surely when we'll know beyond all doubt...

4 April 2012 11:16  
Blogger non mouse said...

Blogger's delete thing died again.
Correction and apology then. Above should read:
[....]I would conclude that we can take back The Malvinas anytime we wish. If you imply [etc.]

4 April 2012 11:27  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Ms de Nova

You clearly cannot distinguish a Raphus Cucullatus from your Milvus Milvus, whereas I can tell the difference between a Criseyde and an Ariadne.

You must put aside these fanciful imaginings of relationships between a man and woman. The correct balance between the sexes is given throughout the Bible and you would do well to study the Old Testament; something you have dismissed in previous posts.

The decline of past civilisations has coincided with an inability of men to maintain the correct balance between the sexes, with enchanting sweetness so often tasted rather than the bitter draught of resistance accepted.

A woman’s tongue can be a lethal weapon, as Henry VIII discovered to his cost when the Boylyn lass used her full oratorical skills to on him.

In days gone by women who dared voice your views would have been dispatched to a nunnery before divesting the local lads of their manhood! God’s ”best and most challenging gift to the world … (who) … deserves the best of everything a man can offer her ( complete devotion).” indeed!

You will apologise for comparing me to Daffy Duck and the Inspector to Mother Goose. ou most certainly may not take me hand and until such time as you do retract please desist from referring to me as Doodle’s. I will not be trifled with in this way.

Non me no more Non’s!

4 April 2012 11:49  
Blogger DP111 said...

We do not live in Soviet Russia, Communist China or Islamist Iran.

But we do live in the EU.

Edward Spalton is right.

4 April 2012 12:32  
Blogger Oswin said...

Nowhere man @ 11:00 : it is as you say, alas.

4 April 2012 16:12  
Blogger Oswin said...

Dodo @ generally: do we have to be a party to your verbal, and thinly disguised, onanistic posturings? It's all a bit, er grubby, old boy.

4 April 2012 16:25  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Oswin: you have a grubby mind.

4 April 2012 17:11  
Blogger Oswin said...

Dodo: perhaps; but I tend not to broadcast it to the nation. xx

4 April 2012 18:05  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

4 April 2012 18:23  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Oswin: it's all in the mind of the reader.

4 April 2012 18:24  
Blogger Nowhere man said...

len

Vertitas liberabit vos

A good old Catholic quote. Read St Thomas Aquinas, it will do you good.

There is great freedom in Catholicism as in all order, knowledge and logic. Making it up as you go along is never an alternative - look where its got the CofE..

4 April 2012 18:29  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Well said!

Strange how so many consider it "bondage" to follow the teachings of the successors of the Apostles. For so many, the condition they mistake for "freedom" is in fact ill-discipline and confusion.

4 April 2012 18:40  
Blogger Oswin said...

Hell, he's banging-on about 'bondage' now!

4 April 2012 19:00  
Blogger len said...

As I was saying Christ came to set the prisoners free.

Some seem to love their prison?.

Perhaps it feels safer to be in prison?.Liberty has a price some cannot pay.

I suppose it all comes down to pride............ which was the reasons for Satan`s fall and ultimately the fall of man .

Religion offers man a set of rules to follow and thereby makes dependence on Christ unnecessary.
I suppose that is why God is so opposed to proud people?.

4 April 2012 20:22  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Oswin: do calm down!

4 April 2012 20:22  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

len

Perhaps you'd care to specify these "rules" and just where you think they depart from the commands of Christ.

Do you mean doctrine - internal consent to divinely revealed truths. Then again, you have no doctrine to speak of and thrash around in contradictory confusion whenever you're pressed on what you believe.

It seems the me the pride to which you refer is self evidently your own. How is it pride to accept one needs teaching in one's faith, or to worthily receive the sacraments instituted by Christ? Far worse to think you know better than the Church appointed by Christ.

4 April 2012 20:58  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr IanCad @ 0815, sadly you are right. The UK has become a one-party, post-democratic state subservient to the EU. British independence is a complete myth propagated by the political class.

4 April 2012 22:06  
Blogger Alpha Draconis said...

@Bluedog and IanCad. There is indeed much more to suffer before Britain has to rebuild, brick by brick and street by street, her civilisation on Mars and then.. to interstellar exploration and destiny!

4 April 2012 22:23  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

Doddles, I promise I will never take you in hand or call you Doodles!

5 April 2012 00:58  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Ms de Nova

You are incorrigible.

5 April 2012 01:06  
Blogger len said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5 April 2012 08:23  
Blogger len said...

id...
Dodo, let me explain!.(4 April 2012 20:58)

(This is very important to so listen carefully because this is the root cause of every contention I have with 'religion' not just Catholicism but ALL' religion'.

The Bible reveals two methods of obtaining righteousness with God Law OR Grace the two are mutually exclusive.IF you seek righteousness by the Law then you cannot achieve it by Grace.
And if you seek to achieve righteousness by Grace then you cannot do it by keeping the Law.
'Religion as practised by Catholicism (and most others)is a mixture of Law and Grace.

Only God Himself could have conceived of the idea of 'righteousness by faith' this is not an idea that could have been conceived by man!.Man wants to work to 'prove' his worth!.

The strength of sin is the Law and those who practise it remain under the Power of Sin!.
The ONLY escape from the power of sin is through the Grace of God administered through the power of the Holy Spirit.


' For sin shall no longer be your
master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.'(Romans 6:14)

So if you try to please God and obtain righteousness with Him by ANY of the works of the|Law (which most people in 'established religion' seek to do you) you place yourself under the entirety of the Law and straight into the hands of the enemy of mankind.You will also reap all the punishments of those who disobey the Law of God!.

So if one places their trust(faith) entirely in the Power of the Holy Spirit that one is set free from the Power of Sin and obtains righteousness with God!

5 April 2012 08:26  
Blogger Nowhere man said...

Dodo, how did your week long equalities indoctrination go?

It thankfully appears to have been water off a Dodo's back but fill us in on some of the nonsense - I could do with a laugh.

At mine an Asian speaker said "All white people are racist - and only white people". At that a West Indian manger shouted "Bollocks - you should look at how your people treat black people in our Housing Office".

Priceless.

Read this book yet? http://bit.ly/HhRvdl

5 April 2012 08:27  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

len

It's not either-or, now is it? Come on think about it.

Why do you suppose Pentecost combines the Jewish feast of the Law from Sinai with the descent of the Holy Spirit? It does not signify the removal of the Law but the fulfilment of the Law. Why do you suppose Christ initiated the two great sacraments of Baptism and the Eucharist?

Are you really saying once you're "born from above with water and the spirit" that you can sin without guilt or consequence? Or, alternatively, that the temptation to sin is removed?

Just what "power" is overcome?

Having no Church is like giving children the 'Highway Code' alongwith a 'Motor Maintanance Manual', without even checking they can read and assuming this will make them competent drivers. Or, indeed, just letting them get in the car and work it out as they go.

5 April 2012 17:38  
Blogger len said...

Dodo a 'works based' religion is a 'crutch' for those who don`t really trust Jesus Christ enough to totally save them.(although they will never admit it!)

The Law is a 'schoolmaster ' to bring people to Christ.

The Law is perfect .. the point being we are not!.If one could perfectly keep the Law then righteousness could be obtained through the Law.
The question is.. can you perfectly keep the entirety of the Law?.I know I cannot so I need a a Saviour who can!.
The ONLY way righteousness can be obtained(in God`s estimation not mine)is through faith in the accomplished work of Jesus Christ.

5 April 2012 18:15  
Blogger len said...

Dodo' The church' is doing its job correctly if it acts as a 'signpost'pointing people to Christ.

'The Church' however claims that membership and going through sets of rituals will 'earn oneself' a place in Heaven.Which is not the Gospel as Jesus or Paul preached it.Of course the Church mentions the Grace of God but this is only one step on the stairway to salvation(in the Church`s estimation)

I very rarely go to 'Church' (of any denomination) and 'the Church' is totally unnecessary for me to be living a Christian life.In fact I have lived a lot closer to Christ outside of the Church than within it!.When Christ is all you have you will realise that Christ is more than enough .
The Church is fine if it a place for people to meet, worship, renew their energies and then go out into the World to spread the Gospel.But....when the Church becomes 'an Institution' and begins to draw one away from Christ and put itself at the forefront it takes on a more sinister meaning!.

5 April 2012 18:32  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

len said ...

"'The Church' however claims that membership and going through sets of rituals will 'earn oneself' a place in Heaven"

Not the Church I'm a member of! The rituals are the outward signs. Not magic or secret words. They represent visually and auditorily what the sacrament represents.

Lets take one example.

The Mass is the Eucharist - the Body and Blood of Christ He commanded us to partake of. Yes, there's all sorts of symbolic actions going on all around but Catholics believe it is the central part is the consecration and the changing on bread and wine into the Real Presence that counts, and so do many Anglicans. The purpose is to be One with Christ and receive strength from Him.

As for all this nonsense about Catholics "earning" Heaven. Again, not in the Church I am a member of. Read the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount and the Last Judgement.

Christ's profound:

"Jesus said to him: You shall love the Lord your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment.
And the second is like to this: You shall love your neighbour as yourself.
On these two commandments depends the whole law and the prophets."

Jesus didn't then say:

"But hey, don't worry with all that study and worship and keeping all those impossible commandments written on your heart.
I'm here to take care of it all for you and once I've finished my job it'll be simple. You'll just know what to think and what to do and just do it. And YOU will love God and others without a problem. Trust me."

And you haven't answered my central questions.

Are you saying the Divine Law no longer applies or that once you're "born again" it just comes easy to follow?

5 April 2012 20:13  
Blogger len said...

Dodo,

Of course Divine Law still applies.

But this is not the Law written on tablets of stone(externally)

But ...'.This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.'(Hebrews 8:10)

God has two Covenants One, you follow the Law do it perfectly and you will be righteous.

Two, God will write the Law on our Hearts and we will follow that Law though the power of the Holy Spirit.

Example one is ALL us.

Example two is ALL God.

6 April 2012 08:11  
Blogger len said...

Dodo All the Law can do (in a fallen people ) is expose their sinful nature)Actually God`s Law will make the Power of Sin more powerful!.

Try telling someone that you expressly forbid them to do something and see the rebellious nature arise!.
(This is why enforced celibacy or 'trying to be good' will never work!.)
It is the Power of God through the Holy Spirit which keeps 'the flesh '(the pre disposition to sin) in check.
(This is provided that you have a New Spirit..Are Born Gain )

6 April 2012 08:29  
Blogger The Way of Fais Dodo the Dude said...

len
So what happens when 'the flesh', the predisposition to sin, gets the better of a person? Does it mean they never really had the New Spirit to start with?

You seem to be implying that no human will or effort is required once someone is "born again". The Spirit takes over. You cannot really mean this?

Are you claiming never to have sinned in the past 14 years?

8 April 2012 00:58  
Blogger len said...

Dodo.

Whenever Jesus or Paul preached the Gospel they were accused of preaching'licence to sin'

Human effort cannot overcome sin(if it could then we would not need Jesus or the Holy Spirit) all we would need would be a list of instructions.... do this and don`t do that!.
Which is exactly what God`s Law is!. the Law is perfect...But we are not!
So all the Law can do is expose our fallen natures.The Law cannot help us overcome sin.
So the only way we can overcome sin is by totally relying on the Holy Spirit within us to hold the 'flesh' the fallen nature in Check.

I do not claim to be 'be sin free' by any means.If I rely on my' will power' I will sin. But if I rely totally on the Holy Spirit I will not sin.

There are two sides to 'the flesh'it can be very bad but it can be very 'good'.The flesh will sing in the choir, read the Bible do anything to preserve itself but the 'flesh for all that wants to be independent from God.All Mankind inherits the flesh, its part of the fallen nature which desires independence from authority especially from God.
Tell someone that you expressly forbid them to do something and see the rebellion rise in them!.
You don`t have to teach children how to be selfish, how to scream if they don`t get their own way, you don`t have to teach teenagers how to be rebellious because this is inherent in humanity.People accept this as 'natural' but this is not how God created man to be!.The only perfect man(as God intended man to be ) was the Lord Jesus Christ.Jesus Christ is the 'blueprint' for the New Creation.
So do I sin ?. Yes but only when I rely on my' will power'and give way to the 'flesh' and not rely on the Holy Spirit.

8 April 2012 19:30  
Blogger The Way of Fais Dodo the Dude said...

len
As I see it, we have to cooperate with the Holy Spirit and grow in faith as we walk with Christ. You seem to have divided man into two distinct parts - in the Spirit and in the Flesh. In reality, they are not seperate but struggle with one another.

Do you have children? If so, you will know that structure and discipline is essential in early life. Children acquire character and learn how to resist temptation. Are you denying this? It is the absence of this that weakens people and leaves them open to easy choices.

Have you ever heard of the paradoxical-injunction?

9 April 2012 12:29  

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