Saturday, September 08, 2012

Nadarkhani's glorious moment of release - in pictures

                   The family huddles, waiting outside the prison with flowers.


                   The children run to greet their father.


                   The family reunited at last.


                   Pastor Youcef, with his wife Fatema Pasindedih. 

74 Comments:

Blogger Anabaptist said...

What a horrible place to live. We are so blessed here! I expect he'll be done for public lewdness now.

8 September 2012 15:13  
Blogger Elisabeth said...

*sobbing* Gods grace is so overwhelming wild and glorious! #TeamSaturdaynext~

8 September 2012 15:16  
Blogger Elizabeth said...

Praise God for His faithfulness. This is wonderful news!

8 September 2012 16:31  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Barking Islam mentioned twice on BBC Radio 4 news. The girl and the pastor...

8 September 2012 18:15  
Blogger John Magee said...

Inspector

Over here the Obama controlled USA State Department is not allowed to mention Islam in any possible negative way. That means government officials can't tell the truth. Muslim suicide bombings and terror attacks have to be officially called "man made disasters" since 2009.

Amazing how liberals avoid the truth when it comes to the cult of Islam isn't it? This is political correctness run amuck.

Imagine during WW II if we had called the atrocities of the Nazi's and Imperial Japan "man mad disasters" so that our governments didn't offend the Nazi's or the military thugs in control of Imperial Japan! The public would have been outraged and rightly so. Today they are silent while those who rule us cover up the truth with clever euphemisms.

Now that this poor girl is safe for the time being and Pastor Nadarkhani appears to be free let's think in terms of the millions of Eastern Orthodox,Catholics,and Protestant minorities throughout the majority Islamic world, from Nigeria across the globe to Indonesia, who face death and persecution from islamic Jihad and Islamic Law of Sharia. The Egyptian Copts deserve our prayers as a group as their future looks bleak if the Muslim Brotherhood completely takes over Egypt which looks likely soon.

These large groups of persecuted Christians must feel abandoned as individuals by the majority Christian West. They need our prayers and syumpathy too.

8 September 2012 19:08  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

John. One thinks we can safely state that the end times the bible informs us of, have, since the late 1970s, been lining up. At the same time, social liberalism has been deconstructing our resolve to do much about it. Instead, we turn blindly away from what we do not want to see, to block what we do not want to hear, to stifle what we really need to say. That Sir, is the product of social liberalism. We’ve been here before of course - Churchill in the wilderness years.

Since the resurgence of Islam as a supra national force, beginning with the deposition of the Shah of Iran, is now unstoppable, it is only a matter of time before a nuclear happening takes place in the country where the hill of Armageddon is situated – Israel.

The UK is unlikely to provide another Churchill. The great leader will have to be provided by the US. A US Army General seems most likely, and he will be brought to the fore directly through the fear of the people. He will be feasted, treated, but most of all, he will be obeyed. And it will be mainly the erstwhile social liberals who will be doing the obeying, and they will be glad for it too.

8 September 2012 19:59  
Blogger Preacher said...

Thank you Lord for the freedom of our brothers & sisters who bear witness for you throughout the World, even when their very lives are in danger.

In our Western nations let us not be fearful or become complacent & sedated by weak & fallible leaders.

Open the eyes of your people Lord that we may seek to serve you & you alone.

Revive us & send your Spirit once more, that a harvest of souls may be gathered in.

Amen.

8 September 2012 21:11  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

We can pray Preacher, but as it stands, it’s the hearts of our representatives that need to be opened. Little sign of that sadly, seems to be getting worse, don't you think...

In the meantime, full speed ahead Mr Magee. We have our destiny to arrive at, for better or worse, and we must not be late...

8 September 2012 21:26  
Blogger bluedog said...

Wonderful to see a good news story coming out of the Middle East, Your Grace. This communicant doubted that Pastor Youcef would ever see the light of day again. Thank you for the updates and for highlighting the Pastor's imprisonment in the first place.

One can only pray that Pastor Youcef's congregation and their fellow Christians in Iran are allowed to celebrate his release freely.

8 September 2012 21:35  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Imagine if we had sat back and allowed the Nazi Germans and Imperial Japanese to immigrate into Britain and treated them as protected minorities who could not be critisized

That is the status held today by those destroying Britain from within

8 September 2012 22:06  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Now there’s a thing bone. If that had happened, there would come a time when they would be demanding Lebensraum beyond the inner city, don’t you think...

8 September 2012 23:30  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

My pc was on your page, Your Grace when I flicked it on after our Sabbath. Was confused by the photos until I scrolled down. Very good news to see at the start of the week. I like the idea of finding something cheerful every week. I know you're not a news service, but perhaps a cheer-up service? And if you could make the world comply by presenting you with happy happenings as well....

9 September 2012 01:52  
Blogger John Magee said...

Inspector

Some events don't make the news or on documentaries on cable TV today. Have you read or ever heard about the Muslim Turks mass murder of over two million Armenian Christians from 1919 to 1922 in eastern Turkey or the mass murder by the same Muslim Turks of almost one million Greek Eastern Orthodox Christians in Western Turkey during the same time frame 1919-1922 on cable TV history documentaries? Of course not. Our Christian holocausts of the 20th century do not matter. The Greek Christians in Western Turkey, who's ancestors had lived for over 3,000 years in western Turkey prior to their mass murder and expulsion by the Muslim Turks, receive absolutely no attention whatsoever today. Ask yourself why we Christians don't matter when it comes to our being persecuted and killed.

The tens of millions of Christians killed in the last century by Communists in the USSR and by the Nazi's in Poland and Russia and the Ukraine for racial and religious reasons don't seem to matter when compared to a certain other group who suffered a similar fate because of similar hatreds.



9 September 2012 03:01  
Blogger IanCad said...

OIG @ 19:59 wrote:

"The UK is unlikely to provide another Churchill. The great leader will have to be provided by the US.--"

Wise words indeed! The longer I live here in Pansyland the more I understand why the Americans had to bail us out in two world wars.

Stiffened our spine during the Cold War too.

B.T.W. Churchill was a Half-American.

9 September 2012 08:45  
Blogger len said...

The release of Pastor Nadarkhani is wonderful news!.

Jesus came to set the captives free, in this case Pastor Nadarkhani was imprisoned for his Christian beliefs but countless more are 'imprisoned' in spiritual darkness which is just as real and just as dangerous.

'Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
(AND CAN IT BE THAT I SHOULD GAIN?Charles Wesley)


9 September 2012 20:59  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Praise God this is a wonderful outcome.

If anyone is interested in the Muslim blasphemy laws as used against Christians in Pakistan may I recommend the Saturday afternoon radio reconstruction from eyewitnesses and contemporary sources yesterday : -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01mhn54/Saturday_Drama_Blasphemy_and_the_Governor_of_Punjab/

about the murder of the Governor of Punjab by his bodyguard, last year, for his attempted protection of an innocent, defenceless poor, Christian mother of 5 wrongly accused of blasphemy. It tells of the political complicity, the irrational violence, and mob "vengeance". An horrific and chilling story and a warning to us all.


9 September 2012 22:39  
Blogger Naomi King said...

John Magee said... @ 8 September 2012 19:08

"Over here the Obama controlled USA State Department is not allowed to mention Islam in any possible negative way. That means government officials can't tell the truth. Muslim suicide bombings and terror attacks have to be officially called "man made disasters" since 2009.

Amazing how liberals avoid the truth when it comes to the cult of Islam isn't it?"

You will not be surprised that President Obama is so pro-islam if you watch these two UTube clips recently put up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-HqHSkYG-Y&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QaKnskg9jA&feature=related



9 September 2012 22:54  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Mrs King, the Inspector was fortunate to hear that very program on BBC Radio 4. Shot dead by his own body guard was the governor, and the casual call of the execution of a Christian women for unproven blasphemy by members of the mob who were not even present at the time. A timely reminder to us all of how debased the muslim can be...

9 September 2012 23:02  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

len
Wonderful men the brothers Wesley. They understood the need for active Ministry aimed at spreading the Gospel and assisting men and women to change their lives.

Both oppossed Calvinism and John and probably Charles too embraced the Arminian doctrines that were dominant in the 18th-century Church of England. This understood sufficient Grace for salvation is offered to all and requires an active and ongoing assent to the Holy Spirit. John redefined Arminianism giving it a stronger evangelical emphasis based on the protestant doctrine of justification by faith.

Not so postively, in my opinion, this refinement provided the seeds for not only modern Methodism but also the Holiness movement, Pentecostalism, the Charismatic Movement, and Neo-charismatic churches. I know you'll disagree with this but do so politely!

My own favourite hymn by Charles Wesley is:

Come, O Thou Traveler Unknown

I read this first many years ago and it reminded of the Grace I had received from Christ and reawoke a hunger in me for reunion with Him. See, Catholics do appreciate that there are different depths to our faith and that we do need the active and ongoing intervention of the Holy Spirit.

It's a wonderful hymn - I have always resisted listening to it sung as I much prefer to reflect on the words without music.

9 September 2012 23:22  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

It is wonderful that Pastor Youcef has been liberated. I join my prayers with those asking God to protect him and to give him guidance.

The Iranians and the world will be watching developments. Who knows why the Iranians behaved as they did. May God grant him the wisdom to act prudently in the situation and protect him from the madness of radical Islamism.

One feels for his family, desperate for him to with them, and also for Yousef who must wrestle with his duty to God and his desire to be a father and a husband and keep his family safe.

9 September 2012 23:31  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

John Magee

I confess, I find your posts revealing about the scale of Christian murder in the 20th Century at the hands of Muslims, Communists and Nazi's for racial and religious reasons. It is a story untold and forgotten.

This line was unnecessary.

"The tens of millions of Christians killed in the last century ... don't seem to matter when compared to a certain other group who suffered a similar fate because of similar hatreds."

I'm beginning to understand better why you included it but, really, the way you put it does reflect a animosity towards Jews.

10 September 2012 00:04  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

C'mon, Dodo, you're being a tad paranoid. Magee could have meant the Gays, for whom he has a special affinity in his heart, or perhaps the Roma. It's not all about the Jews... ;)

Anyhoo, where have you been? I didn't see you at the "Peter Lilley wipes the floor with warmist-alarmist Stern Review" post down below. I have a minority share in that one, as it seems it was I who first alerted or stirred the ashes of His Grace about your very own Mr Peter Lilley, a brave back bencher Conservative MP and a scientist to boot, who dismantled the Stern Report. Go on, register your opinion, I am curious where you stand on the climate debate.

10 September 2012 03:00  
Blogger John Magee said...

"Magee could have meant the Gays, for whom he has a special affinity in his heart."

Interesting swipe but it has no merit.

I don't know what's in other people's hearts and I would appreciate they not pretend they know mine.

I do however have a special affinity for a fair trial for all people charged with a crime. I believe that people charged with a crime are innocent until proven guilty. Even priests and rabbi's charged with abusing under age boys.

10 September 2012 06:35  
Blogger John Magee said...

Dodo

I am well aware of the Nazi persecution of the gypsies and Gays. Who isn't?

I wonder how many know that Hitler's Brown Shirts were headed by an openly Gay former WW I German officers named Ernst Roehm (killed by his Nazi enemies in 1934) and the ranks of the Nazi Brown Shirts was full of openly Gay men.I guess they liked the uniforms.

It's odd that the deaths of nearly 3 million Polish Roman Catholics, over 20 million Russian and Ukrianian Eastern Orthodox Christians, almost 1 million Eastern Orthodox Christian Serbs killed by the Nazi's during WW II are never mentioned in documenmtaries about Nazi mass murder horors. The Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, Serbs, Czechs and other Slavic people were considered "untermenschen" (subhumans) by the Nazi's to be killed or used as slave labor and millions were sent to Nazi Germany as slave laborers on farms and in factories.

As far as the mass murders in the USSR are concerned. Please look up on your search The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, he was one of Russia's great modern writers (who received the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1970) who died at 89 in 2008) His Gulag book is about the Soviet forced labour camp system where tens of millions died between 1918 and 1956. The three-volume book is a narrative relying on eyewitness testimony and primary research material, as well as the author's own experiences as a prisoner in a gulag labor camp.

Have you heard of places like Kolyma and the Magadan Peninsula both in in Siberia? For some reason we never heard about those Soviet labor camps where and estimated 15 to 10 million people died from the 1920's until the mid 1950's?.

At the Kolyma camps which are far above the artic circle in Siberia mountains of bodies are still frozen in the permafrost.

The Holomodor (the Ukrianian word for death by hunger)Ukraine's Genocide of 1932-1933:

Joseph Stalin, leader of the Soviet Union, set in motion events designed to cause a famine in the Ukraine to destroy the people there seeking independence from his rule. As a result, an estimated 7 to 10 million persons perished in this farming area, known as the breadbasket of Europe, with the people deprived of the food they had grown with their own hands.
By the end of 1933, nearly 25 percent of the population of the Ukraine, including three million children, had perished. The Kulaks as a class were destroyed and an entire nation of village farmers had been decimated.

These tens of millions who died in Soviet labor camps and forced famines 20 years before the Nazi Holocaust of the Jews in the early 1940's get almost no attention today only 80 or 90 years afater the events. After all they were just Christian Russians and Ukranians... as well as Catholic Poles and Christians from the Baltic Republics, Humgary, etc. Not "important" people...

10 September 2012 07:16  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Go on, Magee, you know that the real reason these slaughters "get almost no attention today" is that these were civil wars and conflicts with deep roots in the past in which perpetrator/victim roles were switching so fluidly and frequently that there is no way to parse the "good guys" from the "bad."

Why are those nationalities with theor own republics and diasporas in the West so strangely subdued? Why would they rather build monuments to Jews rather than themselves? Because bringing up these within-living-memory issues threatens to re-ignite murderous local hatreds where families, villages and districts still remember the past crimes of their neighbours..and their own. Give it a few generations for them to forget and then they'll blame it all on the Jews, a process which has already started on the neo-fascist and neo-Nazi sites which apparently provide your "historical material."

Do you think all these mass murders could have been done without massive domestic participation of hundreds of thousands of eager locals turning against their own for a few kopeks or dinars? Yet somehow you turn these peasant wars, this Christian-on-Christian violence into a persecution of Christians. By whom? Martians?

How do, in your book, Germans and their collaborators switch to terrible Nazis and Russians into horrible Communists in one instant, then seamlessly back to martyred "Christians" in the next? And you have the indecency to make clever slimy allusions about Jews taking the spotlight from these horrors or even being complicit in them? Three quarters of Russian, Ukrainian and Polish Jewry had already been savagely decimated in pogrom after pogrom led by the Czars and the Church and executed by a brutal, backward peasantry which eventually ran out of Jews, as well as a scattering of Polish gentry and German settlers. Done with the looting and slaughter of "Zhids" and "Devil-worshipping foreigners," they continued their millenia-old pattern and turned on themselves, splitting up into arbitrary factions and inventing "class warfare" to keep the vodka and the rapine going. Care to remember the Chmielnicky massacres? Go ahead, go to Ukraine and try to commemorate that.

As for your passion and tears about persecution of Christians today, why was the issue brought to the fore by Jewish organizations and activists for the first time back in the 90s? And this is still largely the case today. Apart from a few brave Evangelical ministries, the mainstream Churches today, including the Vatican, still mumble excuses about "vigorously praying for their brethren," "working quietly behind the scenes" and "not upsetting the Muslims." Look at the response to the plight of Pastor Youcef and who it was at the forefront of the campaign; "neocon" Jewish orgs, including Middle East Forum and Commentary Magazine. When the PLO took over that church in Bethlehem a decade ago, the whole Christian world displayed its "solidarity" by averting its eyes from the holed-up terrorists who abused the priests and moks, looted the gold, trashed Bibles and crapped all over the sanctuaries. The Churches "prayed for peace in the Middle East" ....and in the end blamed the Israelis.

So, go ahead, make a pilgrimage to Russia and Ukraine and try your revisionism with your "fellow Christians" there and hope that you won't wind up with your throat cut in a back alley or, if fortunate, with some concocted criminal charges by the local militia, followed by a deportation flight back home. Things haven't changed there much after all.

10 September 2012 13:22  
Blogger John Magee said...

To deny or ignore the USSR's war on it's own people, especially the peasants and Christianity from 1918 to 1956 under Lenin and Stalin is to deny the greatest mass murder in history after Mao's killing of at least 150 million Chinese after his Revolution in China after 1949.

Soviet Holocaust denial is as evil and historically inaccurate as those who deny the Nazi Holocaust of 6 million Jews AND others including 20 - 22 million Christians in the USSR and 3 million Roman Catholic Poles during WW II by the Nazi's.

The Russian Civil War lasted from 1918 to 1922. The atrocities commited by the Reds and the Whites during that Civil War has nothing to do with or can be compared in numbers to the deliberate and well oraganized mass murder of tens of millions of people in the USSR by the Soviet Government over 5 decades. The Soviet Gulag with it's hundreds of labor camps was organized in the 1920's and lasted as a vast labor camp system (death camps) until at least 1956. Tens of millions were arrested from 1918 -1956 and sent to the Gulag in boxcars attached to trains with a one way ticket to in Siberia and other places in the USSR to be worked to death because of their religious, political, or class history... even being late for work under Stalin in the late 1920's and during the 1930's could get you sent to a labor camp for 5 years ( a death sentence).

Alexander Solzhenitsyn, an inmate of Stalin's Gulag from 1945 - 1955, was an eyewittness to the horrors of these labor camps. He compiled his massive three volumn trilogy,The Gulag Archipelego, in secret in the USSR interviewing survors from the first decades who were few and getting old by the 1960's to document the millions who died so that the world would know in detail what happened if the last of these survivors died with their stories never being told to the world. The Soviets wanted no doumention of their enormous mass murder projects. Solzhemitsyn (who died in 2009 at 89) received the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1970 so his credibility is beyond any doubt by the Soviet Holocaust deniers. Later he was exiled and went to live in Vermont in the USA and after the USSR collaped in late 1991 he went back to Russia to die there in 2009.

The forced famine in the Ukraine in the early 1930's when at least 5 million, some estimate as high as 8 million, died in the most terrible way of all: slow starvation had nothing to do with a "civil war" and everything to do with once prosperous Ukraianin farmers(the Ukraine was known as the bread basket of Europe before the Russian Revolution)) refusing to give up their private farm land and, hand it over to the Soviet State and join Soviet collective farms.

The Soviet Union's mass murder is ignored because of what group is involved, it victims are almost entirely Christians, and because who carried out this horrific genocide.

The same people who dare to deny the martyrdom of the Russian and Ukrianian people in the USSR in the last century made light of the blasphemy in Christ the Savior Cathedral in Moscow by sluts like "Pussy Riot" Who cavorted in a Cathedral that was built over another Cathedral blown up on direct orders from Stalin in the early 1930's. The new cathedral symbolizes to the Russian people their persecution by Soviet atheism friom 1918 - 1991.

It's obvious the Christophobes what to rewrite and ignore history if it involves the mass persecution of Christians and if the facts of those persecutions are so enormous that they take away attention from their own persecutions.

ALL persecutions are wrong.

The denial of the Russian and Ukrainian Holocaust from 1918 - 1956 (the Ukrainians call their forced famine in the early 1930's the Holodomor, in Ukrianian: killing by hunger) is morally wrong and a lie.

10 September 2012 15:39  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

John Magee,

Russia before 1917 was no better - look up Russia and Circassia if you want to see how the cuddly Russian Empire ran the shop pre- 1917 (and according to some sources regarding the Circassian genocide).

Also look up on the Orthodox Church's endorsement of Russification of the Empire's minorities, especially pogroms against Jews and the persecution of the Catholic Church by the Orthodox Church you so admire.

10 September 2012 16:44  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Blah, blah, blah, Magee. You're repeating yourself. So, I'll repeat myself too.

No one, except the descendants of the perpetrators, all of whom saw themselves as either believing or cultural Christians and many of whom still hate each other's guts, deny the horrendous killings. Jews, as you persistently hint in your skin-crawling, gutless way, are not suppressing that history by the fact that they are honouring their own. Your attempt to turn this into an epic persecution of Christians which is somehow obscured by "Christophobes" (i.e., your Joos) is historically inaccurate, intellectualually fraudulent and morally repugnant. The descendants of the victims and perps are now living in independent countries and in the diaspora, and have the resources and wherewithals to delve into their own histories and to promote them. The fact that they are in no rush to do so has a lot to do with not wanting to open ancient and recent wounds which would re-ignite the savagery. Deal with that.

You made your case and I made mine. It wasn't to chat with you, but to present my views to the regulars and passer-by here, some of whom may not understand what this is about, but most of whom are knowledgable and smart enough to look up facts for themselves and separate stark history from maudlin, gutter-sniping, antisemitic bullshit. Deal with that too and piss off already.

10 September 2012 17:03  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

John Magee

Having read the exchanges here it seems to me that you have a pathological hate for anything Jewish, your words are like that of an oozing puss, from a boil that has just been lanced.

10 September 2012 18:36  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Avi

you know that the real reason these slaughters "get almost no attention today" is that these were civil wars and conflicts with deep roots in the past in which perpetrator/victim roles were switching so fluidly and frequently that there is no way to parse the "good guys" from the "bad."

To be honest, I haven't been following this argument, and so perhaps I should just stay out. But the above statement has no applicability to the Ukrainian famine of 1932/33. That famine was directly attributable to the needs of the Communist Gov't to:

1) Break resistance to colectivization.

2) Expropriate the labor and grain of the Ukrainian pesants.

3) Keep food flowing to the cities where the Communist power base eixsted.

4) Remake human nature into a new Communist man by killing off anyone with retrograde social opinions.

It wasn't about deep-seated animosity rooted in generations of conflict. It was politcal & ideological nature from beginning to end.

carl

10 September 2012 18:59  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Carl,

You appeared just as I'm getting ready for an all-nighter drive, so I might have to get back to you later tomorrow, unless I get stuck at the Peace Bridge crossing for a few hours. (Bless your customs people, btw, they really do work hard to clear transport, harder than our counterparts)

But in a nutshell, while you accurately described the mechanism of the genocide, and the manifested intentions behind it, you too readily dismiss the long history of Russia's violent relations with its hinterland and how this relationship...with conflict going on to this day...is part of a larger historical continuum. In any case, my point is that while it may be polemically useful to create an unbridgeable split between "Communists" and "Christians," there too we have to admit a historical continuum. Without such, the revival of open, public Christianity in Russia and the former republics would have been impossible, and Russia would not be able to call itself a Christian nation today.

10 September 2012 19:45  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

10 September 2012 20:44  
Blogger david kavanagh said...

Hi Hannah

Interesting that you should mention the Circassia nation; I wonder which small country has successfully integrated the remains of this people, who follow the Islamic religion, serve in their armed forces, to defend Judaism and the Jewish people?

Why Israel, of course.

Another example of the 'apartheid' state of Israel, eh?

10 September 2012 20:44  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Carl,

A few minutes I got still. The extent and causes of the Holodomor or Soviet Famine, depending on who is talking, is still debated. Was it an overall famine which affected all of USSR including Russia, a bungled attempt to solve shortages, a corrupt theft, hatred of Ukrainians and kulaks, a planned genocide? My country and yours are in the minority of nations which accept the premise that it was a genocide, an intentional programme of starvation executed for all the reasons you mention above. I'm going to go with that, with the opnion of a Prime Minister I admire and a government I voted for. Britain, most of Europe and all of Africa and Asia do not recognize the Soviet Famine/Holodomor as a genocide for reasons which may or may not prove ultimately to be justifiable. I will not judge them, because I don't know, and I doubt the question will be resolved soon. Both Russia and Ukraine have politicised the issue and no doubt the official international recognitions and non-recognitions are a function of politics.

Beyond the politics, there is an official phototograph in Wiki, of Ukraine's Yanukovich and Russia's Medvedev standing at attention, in pouring rain, before a bronze life-size statue of a thin, ten or so year old Ukrainian girl in peasant dress. I have no idea what brought them there. But on the statue's limestone pedestal, all around the little girl, people had lovingly placed a flowers...and a lot of yellow, red and greenish apples.* Those of us with kids, especially daughters of that age, may have trouble with thinking of further words on that topic.

_________________
*Accessed on September 10, 2012 at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dmitry_Medvedev_in_Kyiv_-_17_May_2010.jpeg

10 September 2012 22:28  
Blogger John Magee said...

Hananah Kavanagh

It seems you can't read. I never mentioned Jews did I?

I did mention in detail and with historic accuracy Christians killed by the tens of millions in the USSR in mass shootings, labor camps, and by forced starvation from 1918 to 1956 under Lenin, Stalin, and Kruschev.

We can't forget the 20 - 22 million Russian orthodox the nazi's killed during WW II in Russia and the Ukrain or the 3 million Polish catholics the bazi's killed.

I am talking about one of the owrst organized holocausts of the last century. the holocaust and planeed mass murder of tens of millions of people in the USSR by an atheistic government.

All I ask is that their horrific sufferings as well as those of the 150 million killed in China after Maos Communist mass murders and forced famines be recognized also as holocausts.

Got it?

Let's not forget the three million killed by the Communist Pol Pot in Cambodia after 1975.

There is a long list of other mass murders including Rwanda in the 1990's and Darfur during the past decade.

10 September 2012 23:57  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Avi said ...

"Go on, register your opinion, I am curious where you stand on the climate debate."

Not sure just what point you are trying to make here but I only comment on matters I know something about or where I have something to contribute to the debate.

11 September 2012 00:03  
Blogger John Magee said...

Hanaah Kavanagh

I have the intellectual honesty to admit the negative aspects of pre Revolutionary Russia such as state organized pogroms against Jews and Jewish quotas at universities as well as Jews being able to live in certain designated parts of Russia as well and other social other faults.

Do you have the honesty to see the USSR for the brutal mass murdering evil system it was? Which was infinitely worse than life under the Tsars.

It has always amazed me to read about revolutionary exiles during the 19th century in Siberia during Tsarist times who had their own cabins or a nice dacha (cottage in the country)and wrote books and even had servants and packaages from home and compare their relatively easy lives in exile to the labor death camps and what exile meant under Lenin and Stalin in Siberia that killed tens of millions after 1918.

You need to be honest enough to admit to the historical fact of tens of millions murdered from 1918 to 1956 in the labor camps in Siberia and all over the vast Soviet far east. Just as any honest and sane person must condemn the Nazis and their mass murder of 6 million Jews, 22 million Soviet Eastern Orthodox Christians, 3 million Roman Catholic Poles, and almost 1 million Eatern Orthodox Christian Serbs and others.

Pre Revolutionary Russia was rapidly being industrialized and just beginning to make use of it's enormous natural resources. The Trans Siberian railroad streteched almost 4,000 miles from Moscow to Vladivostok, enourmosyu efforts were beimg made to educate the peasants and universities and trade schools were being created all over Russia.

There were no forced labor camps where millions died, nor forced famines, no mass shootings in Russia pre 1918. From the time of Catherine the Great until Nicholas II there were less than 2,000 people executed for their radical political beliefs and assassination attempts on the Tsars and the Royal Family. The Tsar who liberated the surfs in 1860, Alexander II, was assassinated by revolutionaries in 1881. Under Lenin and Stalin that many people or more died every day when you calculate that 40 to 60 million people died from 1918 to 1956.

If you approve of the USSR and it's total denial of any freedom for the people's of the of the Soviet Union, that nation's persecution of religion unknown in modern times, a one party political system, denial of it's people to travel outside the USSR, to own private property then I know where you are coming from and I pity you.


11 September 2012 00:54  
Blogger John Magee said...



Bla bla bla... That's how the deaths of over 6 million Ukrainians in the early 1930s who were forced to starve to death by Stalin gets tossed aside here.

Commonly known as the man-made famine, Holomodor has been recently recognized as genocide committed by Soviet Russia against Ukranians by Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko, who released KGB records that clearly stated the deliberate targeting of the Ukraine. The huge declassification of documents shows that Soviet Russia planned the famine in order to ethnically cleanse Ukraine and other USSR nations.Though famine terrorized much of the USSR, Holomodor, which means Great Famine in Ukranian, refers to the famine occurring 1932-33 in Soviet Ukraine where the cruel policies and lack of aid from the totalitarian government lead by Stalin, is said to have caused an estimated 6 to 8 million people.

Soviet Ukraine sat in the middle of the "breadbasket of Europe", a prime area to grow wheat. 80% of people were traditional village farmers, before Stalin imposed collectivization. Among these farmers, were kulaks, which were wealthy farmers that owned 20 acres or more and employed local peasants to farm their land. Kulaks were the most opposed to working on the mass farms, so Stalin soon pronounced them "enemies of the people.

What kind of person would dismiss the deaths of over 6 million people with "bla bla bla"?

11 September 2012 03:50  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Avi

I admit it's been awhile. I did most of my reading of Russian history from say 1982 - 1990. But I don't remember reading any references to the Communist bloodletting in Russia being attributable to long-standing ethic hostility. After all it was (for example) primarily Ukrainian Communists who enforced the policy that lead to the famine. Frankly what bothers me is that your theory would tend to exonerate Communism from the guilt of the bloodshed that always attends its introduction. That bloodshed has proven remarkably independent of culture.

carl

11 September 2012 04:17  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

John Magee

Not sure how you have managed to conclude I am some sort of apologist for either Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia. I find that insulting, however, as it is you, I expect nothing less. To me both Fascism and Communism are the different sides of the same coin, both are evil and repellent ideologies.

In respect of the holocaust, do you think we should not remember how the most sophisticated and industrial country in the whole of continental Europe was transformed in such a fashion that produced Adolf Hitler, his Nazi party and the state policy of industrialised extermination of people? Don't forget, that Hitler, had he not been stopped would have gone on to exterminate the rest of the Jewish people across the planet.

German historian Eberhard Jäckel, wrote :

"the National Socialist killing of the Jews was unique in that never before had a state with the authority of its responsible leader decided and announced that a specific human group, including its aged, its women and its children and infants, would be killed as quickly as possible, and then carried through this resolution using every possible means of state power".

11 September 2012 11:56  
Blogger John Magee said...



It's odd that German historian Eberhard Jackel forgets what any historian of the Nazis era knows which is that one of Hitler's main ambitions at the start of World War II was to exterminate, expel, or enslave most or all East and West Slavs (Christians) from their native lands and to kill 30 million Slavic people considered "subhumans" by the Nazis, so as to make living space (Lebensraum)for German settlers. This plan of genocide was to be carried into effect gradually over 25 to 30 years.

Once again you are posting stuff I never said or imagine I said. Over and over I mentioned the Nazi Holocaust of the 6 million Jews of Europe between 1939 - 1945 as pure evil and that it is an incontrovertable fact of history.

All I am asking is that the Nazis mass murder of at least 25 million Christian Slavic peoples of Eastern Europe, mentioned above in Hitler's plans to kill them and take their lands for German colonization in the East had he won WW II, get equal attention today in history books and on TV documentaries to the Nazis mass murder of the 6 million Jews of Europe which dominates every mention of the evil of Nazism. Why is that so difficult to understand and have sympathy with and understand?

To deny the indispsutable fact that 25 million Slavic Christians were mass murdered by the Nazi's in Eastern Europe during WW II is equal to the denial of the Nazi extermination of the Jews during the same period.

In my opinion anyone who denies the Slavic Christian holocausts by the Nazi's and the Soviet Communists (agaisnt their own people) is as evil as any neo Nazi denier of the Jewish Holocaust.

The same applies to the 40 - 60 million people killed in the USSR from 1918 - 1956 (most of them Christians) under Lenin, Stalin, and Kruschev in the vast labor death camps that were set up in that sad country in the 1920's. Also, to deny the forced famine in the Ukriane when at least 6 million famers were starved to death (98% were Christians) in the early 1930's is a moral outrage to their suffering which is indisputable and throughly documented and with the facts documented and available in both the Ukraine and Russia today in archival material.

Can you understand what I just said and understand that other peoples suffered under the Nazis and died by the millions because of their race and ethnicity and happened to be Christians?

11 September 2012 14:06  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "Not sure just what point you are trying to make here but I only comment on matters I know something about or where I have something to contribute to the debate."

Or to be a one-man Greek Chorus without a clue what's going on.

11 September 2012 19:15  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

DanJ0
Your obsession with me is becoming rather boring. You must try to ovecome this need to project unresolved *issues* onto older heterosexual men.

John Magee
You do have a valid point. However, where I disagree with you is the sub-text to many of your comments that the silence about the Christian mass murders is somehow being orchastrated by Jews to promote Zionism in Israel.

In truth, I was unaware of the full extent of what you have called the "Slavic Christian holocausts" by the Nazi's and the Soviet Communists.

11 September 2012 20:00  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo, you're the father figure I've always wanted. I really envy your kids, as I'm sure you can imagine. What a start they've had in life, the lucky devils. It hardly seems fair really.

11 September 2012 20:27  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Dodo,

Quite- the sub text is there, for if you recall a few weeks back Magee was saying to my bro that those behind the Soviet Union were Jewish, ergo, the Jews are to be blamed for it (a bit like what Hitler said in his suicide note).

And I wonder why John Magee, ever the learned friend and scholar of world wide holocausts, never mentions the Asian Holocaust during WWII in which an estimated 20,000,000 Chinese civilians died at the hands of the Japanese and how this sours Sino-Japanese relations today (e.g. the recent spats over the deserted islands off Okinawa).

Or why he doesn't mention the Nazi experimentation on Jews, such as when they decided to sow up twins and other barbaric war crimes (or indeed the Japanese who were equally brutal to the civilian populations and allied POWs).

11 September 2012 20:32  
Blogger John Magee said...

Hannah Kavanaugh

I am well aware of the holocaust the Imperial Japanese Army commited in Asia during WW II. The 20 million Chinese, Koreans, and others their armies killed.

Please look up the Rape of Nanking in January & Febraury 1937 when the Japanese Imperial Army slaughtered over 300,000 innocent Chinese civilians.

My grandfather's brother, also named John Magee, was an Anglican misionary priest in that city then and took the only known motion pictures of that horrific mass murder.

If you want to know about John Magee my relative and where I am from (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania USA) search: John Magee Nanking.

Also, a famous poem "High Flight" was written by his son, my fathers cousin, named John Magee who went from Pittsburgh to Canada to join the RCAF in 1939 and was later killed during the Battle of Britain.

Satisfied?

11 September 2012 23:07  
Blogger John Magee said...

I've know about the Japanese slaughter of over 20 million Chinese and others in Asia since i I was a 11 years old in the late 1950's. When do you learn about it? Last night on Google?

Shall we talk about the almost one million Serbian Orthodox Christians Nazi Muslim SS units along with German SS units killed in Serbia in 1944?

11 September 2012 23:11  
Blogger John Magee said...

Hannah kavanaugh

Of course I know all about the Nazi experiments using Jews AND Russian Christian POWS.

Many years ago, in the late 1960s, ago probably before you were born. I read a book "The Theory and Practice of hell" by Eugen Kogon who was a prisoner at Auschwitz and worked in the "hispital" there and lived to write about all he saw.

I am not quite as dumb as you imaghine I am.

Are you aware the Japanese used Allied POWS to experiment on in their POW camps in northern China during WW II?

11 September 2012 23:16  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

DanJ0 said ...

"Dodo, you're the father figure I've always wanted."

Quite so ... however it is unusual for boys to have sexual fantasies about their fathers. It's a reversal of the more sommon Oedipus complex but not unheard of. It explains a lot.

"I really envy your kids, as I'm sure you can imagine. What a start they've had in life, the lucky devils. It hardly seems fair really."

I suspect you've gone through life envying all well-balanced and happy children who have had the love and security fforded by a stable parental relationship.

You must move on.

11 September 2012 23:41  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Oh jesus, I thnk I'm going to heave at the thought of it. Besides, at your physical age I expect you're as impotent sexually as you are intellectually. Moreover, at your current mental age, you're either returning to childhood or you never really left it. Lord knows how you managed to be a father figure to your own children let alone consider being one to anyone else. The notion is as discordant and depressing as the one that you're somehow involved in our social services other than as a client.

12 September 2012 05:58  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Now, now, DanJ0, such bitterness and spite. And this fixation on my sexual life is very revealing - as it was with Albert and the Inspector. Once the driving force behind your *issues* begin to surface it is understandable you will feel troubled.

12 September 2012 11:23  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Back in the fray. Work interferes with life's important things, like butt-kicking slimy trolls such as Magee.

Bla bla bla... That's how the deaths of over 6 million Ukrainians in the early 1930s who were forced to starve to death by Stalin gets tossed aside here. What a spineless, lying shyster you are Magee, and I'm being diplomatic. You'll pop a whopper in spite of the fact that anyone can scroll up a few posts and see that the blah-blah pertains to your repetitious natter, not the subject.

"Over six million"? Are you a Holodomor denier? The Ukrainians are claiming 20 to 30 million, Canada's prime minister accepted 10the million number, and Ukraine officially settled for 7 million and a statement that Russian people are not to blame. The UK, the majority of European countries and most of the world rejects the Holodomor name and the accusation of organized genocide, interpreting the famine as a combination of misfortune and brutal stupidity by the Soviets. The deaths in Russia and other Soviet republics are estimated to be very large as well, but will remain unknown and probably unknowable because of current politics and because the Politbureau back then did not keep records and went to great pains to obscure the famine and the vicious confiscations of food, pretending all is well with the grand socialist scheme.

Interesting that you blame murders of Eastern Orthodox Serbians on the small Albanian Muslim version of the SS, the one created by the "Palestinian" Mufti of Jerusalem to help in the round-up of Jews. You can't admit that the greatest and most vicious killers of Jews and Serbs were the Catholic Croatians spurred by the national church and hundreds of their priests?

And as for your admirable family history, you dishonour its true heroes with your petty sniping, mendacity and antisemitism, a sad example of how low you will stoop to make your points and to feed your bruised ego.

12 September 2012 12:52  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo, it was you who started with the sexual stuff. You appear to have no self-awareness at all, it's really, really weird. In fact, I reckon you're completely bonkers. It'd be quite funny if you weren't claiming to be involved in mental health and social services. Heck, the damage you must do there in the unlikely event that you're actually telling the truth. Sheesh.

12 September 2012 13:02  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Carl, you said, "frankly what bothers me is that your theory would tend to exonerate Communism from the guilt of the bloodshed that always attends its introduction. That bloodshed has proven remarkably independent of culture."

No, Carl, my "theory" doesn't exonorate communism; it merely puts it in its historical context. My point was that it's inaccurate to imply, as Magee does, that fascism, communism and nazism were foreign, presumably from outer space ideologies which victimised Christians. These ideologies emerged in a Christian milieau, developed in and gained traction in Christian populations, and the majority of their adherents considered themselves Christians. To deny that is to deny obvious facts of history. It's convenient to blame the depravity of the Wehrmacht, the SS and the German killer-squads, the sonderkomandos solely on Nazism. Yet, the Nazis knew well that they couldn't count on the German urbanized and bourgeois people at large to commit to the kind of popular and mass savagery they could rely on in Eastern Europe. Look up the history of the Kristallnacht and the shock and unease the Grerman population experienced. The Nazi leadership couldn't even count on their sonderkommandos, which saw large attrition rates, and the decision to built secretive industrial-level killing camps in Poland and to leave the hunting of Jews to non-German locals was a result of that realization. They could count on the antisemitism and savagery in Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Hungary and Roumania, among others, where people tore into Jews, Gypsies and "communists" with gusto, where mom, pops and the kids publicly and proudly engaged in robbing, raping, torturing and beating people to death with steel pipes in public squares, often with the blessing of their local priests and whilst taking photos of their accomplishments. Even the SS troops were astonished and disgusted by such unbridled enthusiasm and at times had to intervene to instill a more "humane" and "orderly" killing process.

Likewise, blaming the Holodomor on "communists" is not even a tenth of the story. Soviet communism didn't create the class and inter-village violence, the pogroms, the hatred of Poles, Ukrainians, Germans and Jews, or the primitive religious superstitions and the casual daily disregard for human life. Just like the Czars whom it disposed of and the Church it drove underground and engaged in its programs, it merely took advantage of the "energy" of the ancient hatreds and violence. To conveniently "de-Christianize" entire nations upon the arrival of nazizm, fascism or communism and then to quickly "re-Christianize" them the moment they switch politics is historically dishonest. The Soviet communists differed from their savage Czarist Orthodox Christian predecessors mainly in that they had better technology and organizational structures to vastly amplify their killing power.

The proof of the pudding behind this continuity hypothesis is the current behaviour of Russia and Ukraine. Both places have renounced communism, but are bringing back religio-nationalistic chauvinism, propping up state religions and are rebounding back to their ancient norms of authoritarianism, corruption and cruelty.

12 September 2012 15:07  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

John Magee,

I have never suggested you are stupid.

If I have any issues with you it is due to the constant sniping and anti-Jewish sub-text of your posts here or when you encounter Jewish people on this blog, with an additional ability to twist facts or the narrative of what it is we are discussing, to justify this world view.

This worldview seems to be that you dislike Jews because you think 'chosen people' is the same as 'master race', which given the topic we are discussing here is a disgusting and disingenuous conclusion, especially after others, such as my brother, have attempted to correct, via reason, this opinion.

Onto other bits:

a)I did not imply or argue against the idea that other genocides should not be remembered, which was you first point- I am simply giving an account of why the Jewish holocaust should be remembered and why it should be remembered.

b)I am not sure about your point earlier on that these were specifically Christian genocides, given that Christianity is not an ethno-religious religion. In the Russian example isn't if anything it sounds like a Russia vs Ukraine ethnic issue, or possibly as Avi has suggested above, the result of a brutal and uncaring regime implementing a brutal and insane economic policy, in the name of a brutal and flawed ideology, rather than a specific 'plan' to exterminate Orthodox Christians?

c)In any case neither China nor Cambodia are majority Christian countries, so the idea of genocide because they were Christians does not hold weight, in fact it is more likely to be the answers above (i.e. communism's murderous policy of collectivism of agriculture) and in the other example of Rwanda, I thought the genocide was on ethnic lines and not on religions ones (which, if you wish to turn that terrible crime into a Christian genocide, will make it into a Christian vs Christian one).

d)There was also an inference that some how these events were masterminded by Jews(I thought Stalin was an ex- Georgian Orthodox Monk, but never mind again), both on this thread and on others. Again a twisting of facts to better your argument.

e)Yes I am aware of section 731 of the Japanese Imperial Army and the evil experiments done on allied POW, such as injecting them with anthrax and freezing them to see how long it would take for a man to die.

f)In respect of your swipe about my age, whilst I am only 26, I also have a reasonable knowledge about the history of WWII because :

one,WWII is taught in British schools.

two, one of my siblings did their degree in history

and

thirdly even though you rightly say that the events described above happened well after I was born, quite a few of my relatives were around during WWII, so I have either a first hand account because they are still living or left written source material such as their journals and diaries-"primary documentation" as it is called.

12 September 2012 15:37  
Blogger John Magee said...

Hannah Kavanaugh

Please scroll back. Did I ever say China or Cambodia were Christian countries? No I did not. Once again you put words into my mouth I never said. Communism spreads mass murder where ever it grows that is it's nature to destroy all who opose it. There were forced famines in China ordered by mao that killed tens of millioons from 1959 -1962. That was because mao dreamed up the idea that killing all the birds in China would stop them from eating the seeds in the fields. Of course ever farmer in china know as all famrers do any anyone with common sense that birds eat INSECTS. There was 3 years of unbelievable famine in China because of this insane idea of his.

Pol Pot, another Communist. killed at lest 3 million of his own people in cambodia after 1975 and after that mass murder he spent the rest of his life hiding in the jungles of SE Asia with the UN caring nothing about the fact this mass murderer was living a happy life in hiding.

PS. China does have the fastest growing Christian churches in the world today possibly as many as 150 million:)

12 September 2012 17:26  
Blogger John Magee said...


AVI

For once I can say you don't know what you are talking about. The mass murders and labor death camps in the USSR happened from the early 1920's right up the time USSR and Nazi Germany became allies in August 1939 (and long after until at least 1956).Holomodor Holocaust in the Ukraine happened 10 years before the Nazi mass murders.

You know that I know why you don't want the Soviet Unions mass murders from 1918 until 1941 talked about don't we? Could it be you don't want the unbelievable horrors and numbers of people killed by the Soviets numbering in the tens of millions based on class hatred, hatred of religion, and capitalism, and freedom before WW II talked about because you don't like the idea there were other holocaust in the last century before the Nazi's carried out their mass murders in the name of race and religion????

The Holomodor was a forced and deliberate famine demanded by Stalin and organized carried out by his two leading henchmen named Molotov and Kaganovich with Nikita Kruschev doing the dirty work in the Ukraine. To rewrite the history of the persecution of the peoples of the Societ Union under Communism and dismissing the tens of millions who died form 1918 to 1956 with a brush of saying "bla bla bla" is pure evil. You are denying the deaths of tens of millions of people with lies, distortions, and rewriting hsitory. The forced starvation of at least 6 million Ukrainians from 1931 to 1934 (the height of the mass stravation was 1932 & 1933) was DELIBERATE and forced and brutal beyond belief. The Two men who oragnized this forced fanine because the Ukrianians would not give up their private farms and jouin collectives were Lazar Kaganovich and Vyacheslav Mololov.

People here can look up Lazar Kaganovich and read his biography. he is the "Butcher of The Ukraine". A man who is respeonsible for the deaths of at least 6 million innocent peasants by starvation...

12 September 2012 17:46  
Blogger John Magee said...

For anyone who either refuses to believe, denies, or has the temerity and duplicity to try and REWRITE the horrors and the numbers of those who died during the Soviet Collectivization and the terror famine of the early 1930's in the Ukraine please look up on the internet this book:

"Harvest of Sorrow" by Robert Conquest Oxford University Press 1986.

Robert Conquest was born in 1917 in Great Malvern, Worcestershire, England (he is still alive) and was a Senior Research Fellow and Scholar-Curator of the East European Collection at the Hoover Institution, Stanford university. he took his M.A.and D.Litt at Oxford University and held posts at the London School of Economics, Columbia University, and elsewhere.

To read his bio and about his boomks on the Soviet Unions llabor camps, mass murders, anmd forced famines simply type his anme in your search box.

His most famous book harvest of Sorrow is the first full history of one of the most horrendous huiman and social tragedies of the 20th century.

Here is a summary of the book on the inside cover:

"Between 1929 and 1932 the Soviet Communist Party struck a double blow at the peasantry of the USSR: dekulakization, the disposition and deportation of millions of peasant families, and collectivization, the effective abolition of private property in land and the concentration of the remaining peasantry in collective farms under Communist Party control.

This was followed in 1932 ans 1933 by a "terror famine" wgich the state inflicted on the colelctivized peasants of the Ukraine and other areas of the USSR by impossibly high grain quotas, removing every source of food, and preventing help from outside - even from other areas of the Soviet union from reaching the starving millions. At least 6 million died as a result of this forced starvation but as many as 10 million is not impossible."

Robert Conquest is a graduate of Oxford University and this book was published by Oxford University Press. So those who want to smear him be careful. His credentials on the subject are impeccable.

More believable than anyone in a blog who wants to cover up what really happend in the USSR feom 1918 to 1991.

12 September 2012 18:12  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

12 September 2012 18:37  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

John Magee,

You accuse me of putting words into your mouth, but unfortunately you are letting your seething dislike of Jews to cloud your posts, because this is exactly what you are doing now. Neither myself or Avi have denied that these events had take place, so no-one is trying to re-write history.

12 September 2012 18:38  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

DanJ0
Go away and stalk somebody else. You are becoming a pest.

John Magee
You really will have to explain and justify this comment:

"You know that I know why you don't want the Soviet Unions mass murders from 1918 until 1941 talked about don't we? Could it be ... you don't like the idea there were other holocaust in the last century before the Nazi's carried out their mass murders in the name of race and religion????"

There is something troubling about the insinuation.

12 September 2012 21:12  
Blogger John Magee said...

The denial, cover up, trying to make excuses for the deaths of tens of millions of Christians in the USSR by Communist mass murderers from from 1918 to 1956 and then through 1991 until the USSR collapsed is as evil a concept as the denial of the Jewish Holocaust by the Nazis during WW II.

The evidence for these horrific events in the USSR are uncontroversial and thoroughly documented for the world to see if people want to do so.

What do the Soviet Holocaust and the Holomodor (terror -famine in the Ukraine)deniers fear will be exposed? The truth?

No one certainly not me is denying anything the Nazi's did to kill millions of people. 6 million Jews, 3 million Catholic Poles. at least 22 million Christian Russians, Ukrainians, almost 1 million Christian Serbian, hundreds of thousands of Christian Czechs, Dutch, Norwegians, and others during WW II. We see what they did in great detail on every documentary about the Nazi's on TV.

What is at issue here, after the controversy which was stirred up in this Blog by the desecration of the Christ the Savior Cathedral in Moscow by "Pussy Riot" was not just the blasphemy of the Blessed Sacrament, the Eucharist in front of the sanctuary. What matters to Orthodox Christians and Ukrainian Catholics in union with Rome is the fact the Cathedral represents the Holocaust of the Russian and Ukrainian people from 1918 to 1956 under Lenin, Stalin , and Khrushchev. The Cathedral was ordered blown up by orders of Stalin himself as were thousands of other mostly Eastern Orhtodox, many Roman Catholic, and some Baptist churches in the USSR. The Cathedral that was built on the ruins of the one blown up 80 years ago and the one built after the collapse of the USSR in 1991 is sacred to those in Russian and the Ukraine as a memorial to their people who perisshed under Communism. A system that was forced upon them by a tiny revolutionary party of extremeist socialists called the Bolsheviks iun 1917.

When will we ever see documentaries about the at least 40- 60 million people killed in the USSR from 1918 to 1991? Why isn't the forced Ukrainian famine when at least 6 million died of starvation died under terrible conditions in the Ukraine ever shown on cable TV documentaries about the history of the last century? This forced famine is thoroughly documented and survivors are still alive who witnessed the horrors of that time. Why is the story of mass murder in the USSR not being told? Why is the sufferings of the Russian and Ukrauinian people not given equal attention to later holocaust under the Nazi's? WHY?

Why do the defenders of the former USSR and Communism fear its evil system and deeds being exposed to the world in detail?

13 September 2012 00:13  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

John Magee

Yes, now answer my query:

You really will have to explain and justify this comment:

"You know that I know why you don't want the Soviet Unions mass murders from 1918 until 1941 talked about don't we? Could it be ... you don't like the idea there were other holocaust in the last century before the Nazi's carried out their mass murders in the name of race and religion????"

There is something troubling about the insinuation.

13 September 2012 02:31  
Blogger John Magee said...

Dodo

Yes. Christian holocausts created by atheist revolutions like the French Revolution in the late 1700's and the one that happened in Russia in 1918 are "OK" in the minds of the Christophobes (Christian haters). We Christians are the people that "deserve" to be killed by mass murderers like those who gave us the Bolshevik Russian Revolution and Marxism in the USSR and the horrors that followed.

In the mind of leftists the hatred and killing of Christians is politically acceptable. They will even excuse the USSR's mass murder of tens of millions of Christians from 1918 until the USSR collapsed in 1991.

We see that here by the person who apologizes for Communists in their role causing the Holomodor, the mass extermination of millions of Ukrainians in the early 1930's, by a forced famine.

Left wing Christophobes will do everthing they can to make excuses for the USSR's mass murder of at least 40 million people.

Do you understand?

I hope so.

13 September 2012 07:03  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

13 September 2012 09:24  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

John Magee

You are getting a bit shrill now. As I've said above no-one is "denying" anything in respect to this event. Indeed Avi said on one of the posts :

"My country and yours are in the minority of nations which accept the premise that it was a genocide, an intentional programme of starvation executed for all the reasons you mention above. I'm going to go with that, with the opnion of a Prime Minister I admire and a government I voted for"

What is happening here is that, those of us who have been posting on this issue (you, me , Avi, Carl) are acting like any historian would- i.e. there are the historical events and facts and we are each giving theories as to why these happened, not whether or not they happened. (ask a Professional like Mr Belfast if you do not believe me,for if there wasn't these kinds of debates, he wouldn't be in a job or doing a British PhD!).

So in the same way on this subject there are several different viewpoints, which happen to conflict with you own, but no-one is denying that these events take place.

As for your argument that Holomodor was as a result of a socialist genocide against Christians, rather than against either nationalities or as a result of failed socialist policies, this does not hold water because of the other evidence you give us, namely the similar famine induced genocides of China and Cambodia.

Both of these countries, which are not Christian by majority faith, were taken over by Communists, who like their Russian counterparts at the time instigated collective agriculture, which led to starvation and famine, is there not a common theme developing here?

13 September 2012 10:03  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

One final thought is that John Magee asks why the Soviet Union and issues such as Holdomor are not remembered or recounted in the media. His view is that this is an anti-Christian conspiracy perpetuated by socialist Christophobes (read Jews into that).

In fact a more likely explanation is that the countries involved have their own various reasons for not wanting to bring these issues up in public, because when they do arise in popular media all of the deep seated ethnic tensions in Russia and it's 'near abroad' surface.

A good example of this (and it is thanks to this thread that I stumbled upon it) is the 2008 Latvian film-documentary funded by the European Parliament called The Soviet Story, which according to Wikipedia :

"The film argues that there were close philosophical, political and organizational connections between the Nazi and Soviet systems before and during the early stages of World War II. It highlights the Great Purge as well as the Great Famine, Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, Katyn massacre, Gestapo-NKVD collaboration, Soviet mass deportations and medical experiments in the GULAG".

The film got a critical hammering in Russia, however, for being anti-Russian film, it is well worth reading the comments by both Latvians and Russians quoted by Wiki.

13 September 2012 10:42  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Miss Kavanagh, an admirable battle you are waging here, I see and thank you for sticking up for me. I just came off from a pleasant exchange with our Lord Lavendon over at the Lilley posting and prefer not to sully that pleasure with parsing through Magee's latest ramblings which have lost their sheen of novelty...it would be akin to slipping into a cold septic tank after a pleasant swim in a sun-warmed lagoon.

In any case, no argument of yours will penetrate. Not because of lack of merit, but because Magee is not looking for an elevation of war victims, nor does he much care about Russians or Ukrainians. He crudely hijacked this thread with his hobgoblins because the fate of actual Christians in dire straights does not concern him unless it can somehow be used to attack the "Christophobes" and the Jews in a coy, poltroonish manner. Pastor Youcef is but a convenient topical tool to carry his obsession of challenging any perceived Jewish exceptionalism. It's a crude but fairly effective tactic recommended by dozens of "intellectual" antisemitic sites; hide your goose-stepping madness, suck up to likely confederates, get people to agree on a number of commonly accepted principles or observations to establish credibility and bonhomie, and with persistence and assistance, drag the conversation into the sewer you reside in. A barrage of canned statements and leading questions muddies the waters, and any criticism against the propagandist is promptly twisted into an unfair and hurtful attack against the positions everyone has already accepted. Witness how he twisted my mocking of his repetitive pedantry, his bah-blah-blahs, into an accusation of an all-out assault against Ukrainians and the whole of Christendom. Easier to see himself as a victim in an ideological struggle, that to be laughed at, I suppose. Defense against such tactics is time-consuming if not impossible and the moving goal-posts of such "logic" is unfalsifiable, which renders discussions pointless.

There is value in clarifying things for visitors and folks infamiliar with a particular topic, but feeding the trolls doesn't accomplish that, which is why in my dealings with him I've settled on occasional expressions of ridicule and contempt, while remaining available to anyone with honest comments and questions.

13 September 2012 17:43  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Hannah, my dear, you are quite correct to challenge John Magee, but from the latest two posts he seems to have lost his grip on reality- even an aristocrat like me accepts that the french revolution, unpleasant slaughter though it was, was not a genocide of Christians. I would take Avi's advise on this one. Although I think that after you go onto these forums you will develop a sense of who to engage with and who not to.

13 September 2012 18:51  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Avi and Lavendon,

Thank you both for your wise words, as ever.

14 September 2012 14:09  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Just words, Miss Kavanagh, because I just broke my rule at the "Innocense of Muslims." Thought he could teach me about "hicks," and I just had to pop him one. I'm a weak man; must resolve to be more moderate in the New Year.

15 September 2012 00:04  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Avi

Pick a resolution with some chance od success!

15 September 2012 23:22  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Avi,

Well I think you are one of the more erudite and intelligent people on this blog, hick or not (whatever a hick is!). Whilst mentioning the new year, L'shanah tovah.

16 September 2012 12:42  
Blogger John Magee said...

Dodo

I never mentioned Jews in the USSR or Zionism. Scroll back.

20 September 2012 14:42  

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