Sunday, October 28, 2012

Pope advocates armed resistance against the EU


Today is the 1700th anniversary of the Battle of the Milvian Bridge, at which location history tells us (namely Eusebius) that Constantine received a divine vision of Chi-Rho, which blessed his victory over the Western Roman Empire and led to his conversion to Christianity. Had Constantine lost, it is not likely that Latin Christianity would have become the dominant religion in Europe: there would have been no Holy Roman Empire, no Christendom and no Latin Church. It is unlikely, therefore, that the Church in Rome would have become corrupt, thereby negating the need for the Reformation, thereby saving His Grace from the flames.

Ah, the butterfly effect..

Something of Constantine's religio-political methodology subsists still in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Under 'The Duties of Citizens' (2243) we learn:
Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met: 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.
Insofar as the UK's membership of the EU is manifestly resulting in a hierarchy of rights which is increasingly seen to be antithetical to traditional notions of religious liberty and to the customs and mores of the nation; and observing that this violation is certain, grave and prolonged; and knowing that other means of redress (ie direct democacy) have been chronically denied to the people by all the main political parties; and asserting that other means of remedy have been exhausted; and being sure that the action is likely to have the support of the majority in the nation and so not provoke worse disorders; and being certain in the well-founded hope of success; and being convinced of the reasonable impossibility of imagining a better solution...

67 Comments:

Blogger John Knox's lovechild said...

Is Cranmer confusing membership of the EU with signing up to the Human Rights Convention overseen by the Strasbourg court?

28 October 2012 15:25  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

No, he is quite capable of discerning the difference and in full knowledge of the fact that they are independent.

28 October 2012 15:32  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

Indeed the EUHCR is a valuable body - just because some of our lawyers are grossly misusing it, does not deny its' usefulness....
Whereas the EU is a supranational juggernaught, much in need of resistance.

P.S. One of your posts seems to have vanished?

28 October 2012 15:35  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

28 October 2012 16:01  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

So, what are the criteria for justifiably resisting the Pope? Or would these criteria suffice for that eventuality as well?

Guess we'll have to revisit whether Martin Luther was a heretic and a rebel, after all.

carl

28 October 2012 16:02  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

The ECHR is Satan's playground. You can almost see him whisper his guidance to the judges.

The EU is the economic Reich. Berlin sends out money not soldiers or police at the moment, but heeds Angela’s words.

Time to pull the damn drawbridge up, what !

Incidentally, as this man types this, he hears the muslims are now beating up on the Buddhists. Be an idea to ship the ECHR to Burma in toto, they can sort that lot out...

Tally ho !


28 October 2012 16:06  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Inspector:

Actually think you've got that the wrong way round - it's the Muslims who are the minority being attacked in Burma, by Buddhists. It's an easy switch to make, I guess: we don't tend to hear about Buddhist persecution very much in the West as it goes against the way in which it provides an easy example of "good religion" for the MSM and Stephen Fry (we see something similar with Quakers).

28 October 2012 16:26  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


You’ve floored this man Belfast !

Hard to imagine those gentle Buddhist people giving anyone a good hiding unless sorely provoked....


28 October 2012 16:36  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Inspector:

I gather that there are strains/sects/movements (sorry, don't know the proper word) of Buddhism that are more prone to persecution than others - but I really am not well-informed enough to comment in any great detail. I can tell you that Buddhist monks have been involved in persecution of other faiths - Christianity, but also Muslims, and Hindus - across Asia and the South Pacific. Some of that is involved with oppressive regimes - of which the Military Junta in Burma must surely be archetypical. I expect some circumspection is essential - it would be rather like hearing that the official Zimbabwe Anglican Church was involved in murder and deceit: strictly speaking true, but a very poor reflection of the realities on the ground. However, there are plenty of accounts of persecution by Buddhists in countries where there aren't military dictatorships.

28 October 2012 16:55  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Gah !

Manfarang is our far east correspondent. We’ll see if the fellow can add anything...

28 October 2012 17:17  
Blogger John Magee said...

There is no actual quote by Pope Benedict XVI saying anything about an "armed resistance agaisnt the EU". Only a quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church about just wars and rebellions.

Without a doubt if there is any leader in Europe with the moral backbone who can stand up against the EU it is the present Pope.

As far as Western European Roman Catholic Church history goes you have to take the good with the bad.

Without The Emperor Constantine the Medieval RC Catholic Church in England, which was destroyed by the Reformers 450 years ago along with almost 1,000 years of English RC culture, would have never evolved. This is the same Medieval Roman Catholic Church IN England who's architecture and rituals present day High Church Anglicans have slavishly copied since the Oxford Movement for over 160 years. Anglican "bishopettes" now wear a miter and a cope also worn by Medieval RC bishops. Why can't they wear the simple garb of a Bishop of the Church of England under Elizabeth I and her Protestant successors?

Without Constantine Gothic architecture would almost certainly never come to exist. We would not have the great cathedrals of Medieval Catholic England or France.There would have been no Italian Renaissance which gave us St. Peter's Basilica at the Vatican and a smaller and inferior version of it built by the Anglicans 100 years later in London called St Paul's Cathedral.

28 October 2012 17:38  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

The RC church is evil, & probably aways was evil .......
A living example of this quote, in fact:

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told, regardless if it is right. (!)

28 October 2012 17:54  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

G Tingey

And who told you what is right?

carl

28 October 2012 17:59  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

btw. I notice that real Football has come to England this weekend. Do not waste the opportunity.

carl
reminding everyone that Jaguars pronounced "Jag-waars" and not "Jag-ooh-ars"

28 October 2012 18:02  
Blogger OldJim said...

Oh Tingey, that's a false dichotomy right there

I am sure that you are perfectly capable of avoiding doing what you're told to do without finding yourself in the unfortunate position of having to do what is right.

It just requires a bit of creative malice. People are very good at that.

28 October 2012 18:35  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Anciently the chinese sought after the Tocharians when they wanted an authentic copy of the Lankavatara sutra, which is the basis of the chan and zen traditions

Neither China or Japan have any problem with blending Buddhism with their Warrior Traditions as Gautama the Buddha himself was born into a warrior caste and the Magyar Hun have links to Budapest

It is time we rediscovered our spiritual, martial heritage

28 October 2012 18:44  
Blogger Tim Idle said...

The Bishop of Rome hath no jurisdiction in this Realm of England.

...also the Church of Rome hath erred, not only in their living and manner of Ceremonies, but also in matters of Faith.

28 October 2012 19:02  
Blogger Edward Spalton said...

The independent German website
www.german-foreign-policy.com
announced the accession of the present Pope with the headline "Habemus Europam" . He and the late Ottoman Vonnegut Habsburg were closely associated in the Pan Europa Movement. So I think you may wait a long time for this sort of endorsement from the Holy See.
If you Google "Beerdigung Ottoman von Habsburg" you can pick up video clips of the Imperial scale funeral of the late Otto last year with the Habsburg colours carried by the Guard Regiment of the Austrian Republic and a most impressive service in the Stephansdom, conducted by Cardinal Schoenborn with the singing ink of the Kaiserhymne "Gott erhalte".
Immediately behind the honour guard in the procession were the banners of Pan Europa..

So, your Grace , as they say in Glasgow "Dream on!"

28 October 2012 19:23  
Blogger Edward Spalton said...

Apologies,
My iPad spell checker does things automatically and
scrambled OTTO VON HABSBURG

Perhaps it's a Vatican secret agent!

28 October 2012 19:27  
Blogger len said...

Constantine did what any pagan Emperor would do to preserve his authority and position he took Christianity 'on board' what he omitted to do was to reject paganism... he merely added Christianity to Paganism.
It took the Reformers to attempt to unpick Christianity from its pagan bedfellow and many (HG included) paid for this attempt to restore Christianity with their lives.

For those dissafected Anglicans who would desire to flounce out of the Anglican Church and return to their Roman[pagan] roots they would do well to remember the long line of martyrs who gave their lives to restore Biblical truth to Christianity.

28 October 2012 19:54  
Blogger John Magee said...

Inspector

The children of John Calvin and John Knox in the USA, the Presbyterian and Congrationalist Churches, are doing stuff today which would make those two sourpusses do sit ups in their graves.

The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) passed a historic measure in 2011 allowing openly gay men and women in same-sex relationships to be ordained as clergy.

I have a suspicion it's as bad if not worse with the Chruch of Scotland today but I do not know this for certain.

If you have any idea what hell holes Calvin's Geneva and John Knox's Edinburgh were like 450 years ago with their morality police atcually snooping into the daily the lives of the people looking for "sin" and punishing them "acordingly" the concept that Presbyterians today would do the above is shocking news.

On second thought it's not.

The Reformation is dead.

28 October 2012 20:14  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Our very own Charles Kingsleys work: The Teuton And The Roman; ought to be an inspiration

28 October 2012 20:21  
Blogger Roy said...

With regard to Buddhists and persecution both the Inspector General and those who have drawn attention to the persecution of Muslims in Burma are correct.

In Bangladesh the Buddhist minority have been experiencing persecution by the Muslims.

Bangladesh court: Why weren't Buddhists protected?
AP Oct 3, 2012, 07.07PM IST
http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2012-10-03/news/34238963_1_bangladesh-court-buddhists-rohingya-muslims


DHAKA: Bangladesh's High Court asked the government on Wednesday to explain why local officials failed to provide security to minority Buddhists whose homes, temples and businesses were attacked over a picture of a burned Quran posted on Facebook.

"A two-judge panel asked top bureaucrats of the Home Ministry and local administrators to reply within a week and ordered authorities to ensure safety in troubled areas of southern Bangladesh."

Bangladesh rebuilds temples torched in Muslim riots
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iaZIf5f2BZMSgTKFyGI8XeNaqj3A?docId=CNG.f01909526b334a26a3a3457f30ee9490.451

"Bangladesh has started rebuilding 19 Buddhist temples vandalised by Muslim mobs in violence triggered by anger over Facebook content that defamed the Koran, officials said ..."

"Buddhists, who make up less than one percent of Bangladesh's 153 million mostly Muslim population, are based mainly in the southeast near the border with Buddhist-majority Myanmar.
Buddhist leaders said the two days of violence was on a scale unseen since Bangladesh broke free from Pakistan and declared independence in 1971.
Police said thousands of Muslims had taken part in the riots and nearly 300 people have been arrested."

The trouble in Bangladesh seems to have been almost totally ignored by the British media.

28 October 2012 20:35  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Chaps, what the Buddhists are doing in the far east in response to the obvious Islamic threat is a subject that perhaps the Archbishop would give us the benefit of his wisdom in the near future. One is loathe to hijack a thread, such is this man’s respect for our honourable host...

28 October 2012 20:47  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

John, that’s is it. That’s it exactly. The reformation far from dead is continuing today. By accepting every whim thrown at them, the protestant houses are heading to a state of reforming themselves out of existence. We see it in the the CoE now. It is only a matter a time before the rest of the protesters protest themselves out of religion and into that of a social club with candles.


28 October 2012 20:54  
Blogger Corrigan1 said...

The Catholic Church is evil, is it? Makes you wonder why He founded it.

28 October 2012 21:42  
Blogger Corrigan1 said...

On a broader question, is Cranmer now taking his theology from Rome? If so, welcome home; just don't do it again.

28 October 2012 21:52  
Blogger Roy said...

I have just been watching the 10pm news on BBC1. A car bomb has exploded outside a Catholic church in northern Nigeria killing at least 8 people and a very large number wounded.

Apparently nobody has claimed responsibility for the bomb yet but it is fairly obvious who the suspects are.

28 October 2012 22:20  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

A protesting church built on quicksand, to be taken back within the earth, and on it’s own volition. In the grand history of Christendom, a divergence of only a short history...

28 October 2012 22:21  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

"The Catholic Church is evil, is it? Makes you wonder why He founded it." Did He REALLY.."The Holy Roman Church will stand and the gates of hell shall not prevail?" Must have missed that bit! Or is some vague association with certain early church fathers all that this tenuous claim can be based upon?
The letter to the Romans (All believers mind you) by St Paul states throughout its many chapters that most of your many centuries added nonsense is non scriptural and saves no one (apart from being a 'nice little earner') yet ye carry on regardless and even claim a mandate to do such nonsense and remain as you are. A petulant, disobedient church INDEED, that sees the splinter in a brothers eye yet missing the oak trunk poking out of its own!

Yours is a church in dire need of self examination and urgent repentance, as is the CofE, not a counter reformation to shore up the sinking castaway ship!
Is there anything worse in something/one as self justifying/serving?

Blofeld

28 October 2012 22:45  
Blogger non mouse said...

... indeed, Your Grace.

Must say, I always think it rather wonderful that Constantine found safety in York, where his troops declared him emperor (succeeding his father, who died there in AD306).

But what a list of achievements followed: from a Serbian lad who may or may not have been another Bastard! (He seems to have cared about his mother).

Really, some historical figures were wondrous. Bernard of Clairvaux evolved from it all, and I think he was right to recognise our perceptions as being the greater only because we see as "from the shoulders of giants."

After all, we might add to your 'never would have beens': Sunday; Christmas; the Basilica of SS Peter and Paul; The Lateran Palace; the Byzantine part of the Roman Empire and all that self-repeating Interlace; the Cult of the Cross, and Helena's relics thereof; The Nicene Creed (+developments of the Apostles'); Trier and Constantinople, as we would come to know them ---and so, I guess, even the literacy that the Eastern Empire preserved for us to pass further along. All that and more without an i-pod to hand.

Of course, Constantine moved his HQ to Trier, at one point, which may have kept those pesky Franks in their place for a bit. I agree it's a pity they aren't still in it. Sad it is-- that their latter-day relative doesn't spring from Constantine's heritage in terms of Freedom from Persecution, and Freedom to Worship.

I fear he may change his mind about those "Duties" ...

28 October 2012 23:28  
Blogger Galant said...

Just a few thoughts on this in isolation:

"Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met: 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution."

1 - How do you define what are fundamental rights - in fact, what rights? Determined by whom?
2 - #3 is impossible to determine.
3 - How can #4 stand if #'s 1 and 2 are true?
4 - #5 - better than what? Decided by whom?

29 October 2012 00:19  
Blogger John Magee said...

Let's not forget that the city the Emperor Constantine founded in 330 AD, Constantinople, fell to the armies of Islamic Jihad in 1453. The great church of Hagia Sophia/St Sophia was turned into a mosque (today it's a museum) and hundreds of other beautiful Byzantine churches in Constantinople and what was once the Byzantine Empire, today Turkey, are now mosques.

Modern Jihadists in the Middle East and the Muslim brotherhood since 1928 have a saying which has inspired them for over 500 years since Constantinople fell to Islam in 1453. First Jerusalem, then Constantinople, then Rome.

The 3rd largest mosque in Europe (it was the largest when built in 1995) is in Rome. Here is what helped inspire the Mosque in Rome to be built:

Before its construction, King Faisal of Saudi Arabia, the custodian of the two most significant mosques in the world, namely those in Mecca and Medina, visited Rome and asked for a place to pray, his adviser had to inform him that Rome had no mosques other than those in rooms of embassies representing Muslim nations, upon which King Faisal reportedly uttered “This is impossible!”.

So the Muslim King of Saudi Arabia now has a mosque today to pray in when he visits Rome but the Pope, the Archbishop of Canterbury, Protestant and Orthodox Christian leaders can't built churches in his country. The home of Islam.

29 October 2012 02:03  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

Actually it is:
"The bishop of Rome hath no dominion in this realm of England"...
A sentiment I still agree with.

As for knowing what is right & wrong, I would recommend you to the teachings of Socrates, as a starting point, at least....
No need for any mysticism, BSF or "churches" of any sort.

29 October 2012 07:51  
Blogger Edward Spalton said...

Greg,

Yet the funny thing is that the most massive, industrial scale beastliness of man to man occurred in the twentieth century by regimes which did throw off (as you would see it) all the superstitions of religion .

Nazism was anti religious and believed itself "scientific" in a neo Darwinian way. Marxism believed also believed itself "scientific" and acting out of historical inevitability in the interests of the workers of the world and was (and is) quantitatively far more murderous.

Both were foreshadowed by the mass murders and convulsions inflicted by the French revolution, in the name of the "rights of Man" which also sprang out of what is paradoxically called "The Enlightenment".

Without excusing any of the beastliness which was committed in the name of religion, any observer is forced to admit that there was a massive increase of inhumanity on a hitherto unparalleled scale when thinkers threw off what they thought to be their shackles.

29 October 2012 08:17  
Blogger len said...

There are some that say thatIslam owes much to Catholicism.
Mohammed quite obviously drew from Jewish and Catholic sources to give birth to Islam.One of Mohammads wives is reputed to have been Catholic and possibly other family members?.

Islam and Catholicism have a few points where they can come into agreement(possibly a future shaky union?)The reverence for 'Mary' is just one point.There are also other points of agreement between Catholics and Muslims[apparently]

DDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS JOHN PAUL II
TO YOUNG MUSLIMS

Morocco
Monday, 19 August 1985

' Christians and Muslims, we have many things in common, as believers and as human beings. We live in the same world, marked by many signs of hope, but also by multiple signs of anguish. For us, Abraham is a very model of faith in God, of submission to his will and of confidence in his goodness. We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection.
(
An extract from speech by John Paul 2)

(So Catholics and Muslims worship the same God?.Do Catholics know this?)

29 October 2012 08:28  
Blogger John Knox's lovechild said...

John Magee

My father is appalled that the C of S, although formally opposed to homosexual marriage has said almost nothing on this.

I explained to him that as a heretic, he must accept the inevitable drift to error and that his arrogance has helped visit this nonsense on Scotland.

I pointed out that only the Catholic church has the courage to speak clearly on these issues and does not waste its time trying to be popular with everyone.

I then asked why presbyterians maintained ridiculous objections, such as opposition to sexual intercourse with both parties standing up. He explained that this could lead to dancing.

At least I think it was that way round, but with heretics you can never be sure where the horse and cart are.

29 October 2012 10:09  
Blogger John Knox's lovechild said...

"Touto estin to swma mou"

To what does the pronoun refer here?

Bread or Body?

29 October 2012 10:23  
Blogger Preacher said...

Dr Cranmer.
Are you suggesting that Mr Van Rumpuy (Rumpy Pumpy) to his UKIP opponent is in danger of being dragged out of the E.U parliament by officers of the Papal Inquisition & face trial as a heretic, as no better more peaceful solution exists?. ROFL!

29 October 2012 11:09  
Blogger John Chater said...

It wasn't the corruption of the Roman Church that did for Your Grace, and as for the 'need for' the Reformation…

Well, many are the histories that seek to celebrate the birth of the Anglican Church and its role in the Protestant Reformation. What they gloss over, though, is the fact that when the deplorable old king met saucy young Anne Boleyn he was about as interested in Protestant reform as he was in jet-skiing (never one to keep it in his cod-piece – he had already been adulterously giving Anne's sister the royal g-forces). He fancied the girl, and who could blame him – she a comely twenty-six years old and he an already knackered forty-two.

Of course, it wasn't long before he tired of poor Anne, getting his henchman Cromwell to concoct charges of adultery, treason and incest against her. Three weeks after the great man had her head lopped off he overcame the extraordinary grief that must have beset him by marrying his latest crush Jane Seymour.

What a guy.

Of course it all picked up wonderfully a few years later, if only for a short while, under the rule of Bloody Marvellous Mary, as history fondly remembers her (sorry Your Grace, if this stirs up some rather warm memories).

And that's it really, the glittering arc of the Church of England to this present day – pragmatic, mercurial, ever obliging – and never knowingly exceeding the measure of its origin. As for the European Reformation – nuns in herring barrels. Says it all really.

29 October 2012 13:37  
Blogger John Magee said...

John Knox's lovechild

It must be difficult to be a Puritan today. Especially those who still belong to one of the former Puritan Churches who are now on the side of Old Nick.

I always think of the Scots as a no nonsense and common sense people. The C of S and Scottish Episcopal Church better fasten their seat belts because a tsunami of liberalism is heading their way from the south.

29 October 2012 14:42  
Blogger Edward Spalton said...

John Magee,

The Scottish Episcopal Church under the previous Primus, Richard Holloway, was
a fount of liberalism. It also gave us Canon Kenyon Wright, secretary to the Scottish Constitutional Convention. So its ecclesial political climate is fairly right-on PC already. I believe that, since his retirement, Bishop Holloway has declared himself agnostic.

My late sister was a member and had a great deal of comfort from the Church's ministry but it does seem to be the sort of outfit which takes the exhortation to be "all things to all men" in a very elastic-sided manner - just like the C of E, only more so!

29 October 2012 15:01  
Blogger John Magee said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

29 October 2012 15:26  
Blogger Edward Spalton said...

len,

I referred your comments on the Pope's speech about Islam to the editor of the traditionalist Roman Catholic magazine, Christian Order, asking him whether the speech was correctly reported. Basically, I suppose, I was asking "Say it ain't so"

He sent me a long reply, which began "John Paul was a major offender in all this, scandalously kissing the Koran during an audience for Muslims at the Vatican and also asking in 2000 for St John the Baptist to protect Islam!I've mentioned these sorts of outrages many times over the years. None of it involves the doctrine of infallibility, which of course is very narrowly defined. But it shakes the confidence of the faithful to be sure. As do bishops and cardinals who follow suit....

I could write a very interesting response for the blog but really haven't the time. len's idea that Catholicism and Islam might come to a "shaky union" is hilarious....
Christian Order magazine is running a 20 page feature article in the January 2013 edition around this issue titled "Continuity or Contradiction: should Catholics "respect" False Religions". It points out how the neo Modernist notion put about by postconciliar (i.e. after Vatican II) popes and other ecumaniacs about respecting false religions like Islam is utterly contrary to Catholic teaching from the time of the Apostles... (As in the past, I'll be including some graphic pieces on Islam... to underline the sort of demonic concoction that it transparently is),,,,"

In short, it's a bit like His Grace's present successor welcoming the introduction of Sharia law to the UK.

You can look up the magazine's editorials by Googling "Christian Order"
and he recommends the article he wrote in January 2001 on the then Cardinal Ratzinger's release of "Dominus Jesus".

I am not a Roman Catholic and find that the forthright views of this Australian editor give a very different impression of the RC Church and its laity to the one held by most outsiders. Christian Order expresses a minority view and is, of course, detested by the English RC hierarchy, who are "liberals"like many C of E bishops.

29 October 2012 17:59  
Blogger len said...

Edward Spalton.... time will tell.

Muslims and Catholics have already united in Scotland to fight same sex marriages.

29 October 2012 19:14  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len. Muslims and Catholics have already united in Scotland to fight same sex marriages.

And before that, your imbecile post of 8:28 with such concrete statements as “There are those that say, and apparently, and reputed, and possibly”,

One has seldom come across a shakier post than that offering. You are a damned idiot, sir !

29 October 2012 19:54  
Blogger len said...

BEIRUT — Pope Benedict XVI on Saturday called on Christians and Muslims to forge a 'common front' against warfare, even as battles raged in neighboring Syria and the new U.N. peace envoy to that country conceded that the situation there was deteriorating.

"It is time for Muslims and Christians to come together so as to put an end to violence and war," Benedict, 85, told an enthusiastic youth gathering on the second day of his three-day visit to Lebanon
(Los Angeles Times September 16 2012)

So it will appear for the' common good' for Catholics and Muslims to unite and this will appear(on the face of it) to be' a good thing').

But Muslims deny the Divinity of Christ and is 'Allah the Christian God?.

I can clearly see where this is leading but can you?.





29 October 2012 20:14  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Wishful thinking. The man wants an end to war, which is rather apt as there is a muslim side in most conflicts. And he is on away turf.

29 October 2012 20:38  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

len
Er, less murder and maiming, perhaps? A call to attempt to reconcile doctrinal differences through rationality and not violence? A repeated theme of this Pope and Blessed John Paul.

Not back on the old theme of a Catholic-Islam 'plot' as a forerunner to the antichrist, are you?

You have a twisted and warped sense of what is going on in the world.

29 October 2012 20:41  
Blogger len said...

and also,

Catholicism & Islam: 'Ties That Bind'
The title reflects the hope and prayers of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue. Rome has been tilling this "common ground" with Islam for decades, as evidenced by the 1994 Vatican publication,' Recognize the Spiritual Bonds Which Unite Us: 16 Years of Christian-Muslim
Dialogue.'.

Compromise will kill Christianity look what Rome has done to it!and her 'little sister' the protestant church which started right(with the Reformation) but has been 'sold out' by her leadership!.

29 October 2012 20:43  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

len

As Christian Order (a pretty militant, traditional Catholic magazine) commented:

"len's idea that Catholicism and Islam might come to a "shaky union" is hilarious...."

That's the polite way of saying you've fallen off your trolley.

29 October 2012 21:07  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len. Would be able to inform the Inspector of any prominent ‘Born Agains’ he can google. Your rather sad take on Christianity has inspired this man to consider you a one off loon. But he is prepared to be enlightened. There might be a whole tribe of loons...

29 October 2012 21:48  
Blogger Matt A said...

Inspector, I am born again, but not really prominent unless you are in a very specialized area of engineering plastics. Also, I don't think I am (yet) a loon. But then again, I don't think that Islam and Rome are about to combine.
I do believe, though, that you must be "born again" to enter the "kingdom of heaven", but I also concur that both of these phrases have been sadly misused over the years.
Dear Inspector, are you born again?

29 October 2012 22:04  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Matt A. This business about being baptised into God’s church. You do realise that it was primarily part of a recruiting drive in the early years of Christianity. It is possible to be baptised as an infant into a Christian family. This is lost on Len.

That man is a pitiful example of a Christian. Christ came down to save humanity, not a select few. If you believe the latter as a born again, then yes, the Inspector views you all as odd balls. If you think otherwise, enlighten this man....


29 October 2012 22:49  
Blogger Matt A said...

Born again, converted, saved, there are many different phrases used in the Bible to describe the same event.
I do not believe that the Bible teaches that everyone will be saved, it teaches the exact opposite of that, the much hated doctrine of election. Jesus himself said "all that the Father gives him shall come to him", but then in the next breath he said "all who come to him will never be cast out", showing us that we should not worry our little heads about election, that is God's business alone.
Your comment on baptism is interesting, we are instructed to "repent, believe, and be baptized", but I am not convinced the order is especially critical, so I totally accept your point on infant baptism, even if this is not my practice.
I enjoy reading your posts, and I get the idea that you do trust in Jesus for salvation, so we are, technically, brothers (I hope).

29 October 2012 23:00  
Blogger IanCad said...

OIG, @ 22:49 and elsewhere.

"It is possible to be baptised as an infant into a Christian family"

I see that nowhere in The Gospel.
We must be baptized and born again. And that when we are at an age of discernment.

Ref. Mark 16:16, John 3:3, Acts 8:38.

It is far easier to sprinkle than dunk.
Rome practised Baptism by immersion well into the Twelfth Century.

Cardinal Gibbons makes a pertinent statement:

"For several centuries after the establishment of Christianity, baptism was usually conferred by immersion; but since the 12th Century the practice by sprinkling has prevailed in the Catholic Church, as the manner is attended with less inconvenience than baptism by immersion."
So, convenience takes precedence over instruction?



You further wrote:

"Christ came down to save humanity, not a select few."

Well, I know you don't embrace the vile doctrine of predestination but are you now espousing Universalism?

Surely not, not you!

Touching on the Roman/Islam parallels:

Certainly the symbologies have a likeness.
The histories do also.
Bloody and intolerant.

30 October 2012 09:27  
Blogger John Magee said...

Edward Spalton

What did Pope JP II get for trying to reach out to the Islamic world and ask them forgivenss for the Crusades (what did we do wrong?) and by kissing that Koran as a sign of "respect" of the hatred and violence it contains during a vist to Syria?

He was shot on May 13, 1961 by a Muslim Turk at St Peter's Square in the Vatican and narrowly escaped an assassination attempt in 1995 during his visit to a World Youth Day rally in the Philippines by Muslim extremists from Mindinao allied with al -Quaeda.

30 October 2012 16:43  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...



Matt A. You are a reasonable man, sir. You should consider benefiting this post more often. At the moment, the sole born again is bringing Christianity into disrepute. His loathing of the RCC is quite remarkable. As someone who tends to respects the Christian beliefs of others, although he will contribute an opinion if the conversation calls for it, the Inspector finds Len downright rude.

You get right the idea that the Inspector trusts in Jesus for salvation. Or at least, to be considered for it, or putting himself forward as a candidate, if you wish. To answer IanCad at the same time, one does not believe in Universalism. Neither does one believe that a thorough knowledge of the bible will do it either. Christ did not come about the wealthy educated elite of Judaism, but the likes of fishermen. So how does the peasant in the field who may not read or write come in ? It’s the spirit of Christianity that does it for this man, including the choice of taking it or leaving it. The spirit that should be renewed after each mass. Rather a grand feeling that ! Would you believe that is all that is required of us through worship. We leave the ins and outs of the dogma to the priests. After all, if you were ailing of body, you would consult a physician surely, not rely on your own symptoms book…

IanCad. You mention Rome as bloody and intolerant. If you appreciate history, you will realise that was the way things were done in the past. And it wasn’t just you, the others were like that too given a chance. Let’s have no mass apology of events past, like when those who let the side down and were shot in WWI as deserters / cowards received a pardon or whatever. For all the good it did them and their families, it actually cheapened the courageous sacrifice the majority of men made.



30 October 2012 16:44  
Blogger John Magee said...

Inspector

You said: "We leave the ins and outs of the dogma to the priests. After all, if you were ailing of body, you would consult a physician surely, not rely on your own symptoms book… "

I agree. Look at the chaos we see among the thousands of Protestant denominations, sects, and cults each claiming to know the truth in the Gospels. How can the truth remain pure if it's constantly being divided like an amoeba to suit the spiritual needs of new branches of that expanding amoeba?

It can't. That's why the original Protestant Churches are imploding today.

IanCad

When a Catholic says that he has been "born again," he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism. Evangelical Protestants typically mean something quite different when they talk about being "born again."

For an Evangelical, becoming "born again" often happens like this: He goes to a crusade or a revival where a minister delivers a sermon telling him of his need to be "born again."

I find the whole Evangelical experience an emotional one which I can''t identify with. If it helps others come close to God that is fine but I choose the Catholic version when our sins are forgiven and we are transformed by God's grace at the moment of baptism.

Is it true Evangelicals can be baptised over and over during their lives at these emotional revival meetings?

The Catholic Churches allows only one baptism. So did the early Church.

30 October 2012 17:34  
Blogger Edward Spalton said...

IanCad,

That was exactly my experience of that sort of protestantism - everything depending on a self-referential, subjective experience of being saved. As a young man I was with a group of that sort - all very good, serious people but the overwhelming experience of "being saved" passed me by.

It was many years later when I accepted that Christianity is a combination of faith, reason and will which needs the sacraments to continually reinforce it with Grace.

Being swept up by enthusiasm, however sincerely is no substitute for the stability of orthodox belief and practice.

30 October 2012 17:48  
Blogger len said...

Christianity is Christ...If you need religious 'props' to keep your christianity' alive' then quite obviously Christ alone is not enough?.

30 October 2012 19:47  
Blogger IanCad said...

John Magee, Edward Spalton

You are casting a very wide net when you refer to "Evangelical Protestants."
I can only infer that you are alluding to, in a perjorative sense, the more extreme Pentecostal/Charismatic groups that fall under that umbrella.

"When a Catholic says that he has been "born again," he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism. Evangelical Protestants typically mean something quite different when they talk about being "born again."

As a Protestant, I have no disagreement with the first sentence above. I am not at all sure what you mean in the second. We should not deign to make windows into men's souls.

If a Christian, falling away, again decides to pick up the Cross, I'm not aware of any Biblical teaching that would preclude his Re-baptism.

Glossolalia is infecting nearly all denominations. The prancing hysteria, screaming and abandon, held by the participants to be a manifestation of the Holy Spirit is surely deception of the worst kind.

Why would this Pope and his predecessor both choose to encourage the "Catholic Charismatic Renewal" movement? An organizaton that is completely at home with the notion that gibberish should be part of the worship service.

We live in interesting times.

30 October 2012 19:55  
Blogger len said...

When a Catholic says 'he has been born again' he refers to the sprinkling of water over the head of an unsuspecting and unrepentant infant.
Can this change him or her.... not one bit.

Jesus says'" you must be born again born from above"... born from the Spirit of God... the Will of God. NOT from the will of your parents or the will of a priest.

And the unsuspecting infant what of their will?.

'Johns baptism' was one of repentence(how can an infant repent and of what?)

Jesus`s baptism was of the Holy Spirit and fire which entirely changes a man who will never be the same again!.

Religion cannot impart Life only Jesus Christ can!.

30 October 2012 21:12  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len. ...unrepentant infant...

Now they, of all God’s creation, are surely the worst of the lot. They go and tip the contents of a potty over. Are they sorry for it – you bet your bigoted heart they are not...



30 October 2012 21:24  
Blogger John Magee said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

31 October 2012 00:39  
Blogger len said...

John Magee,

I think some people need' religion'it gives them a sense of control, they need to feel they are 'in the driving seat'.

I am' born again'I didn`t faint become hysterical or even emotional.
But I was aware that something profound had happened in my Spirit.I was aware of a 'shift'in my moral and value system, I was aware of a change in my outlook on life and on people.This happened 15 yrs ago and I am still trying to understand exactly what happened.
Being' born again' is a supernatural event totally from and by God it cannot be controlled or manufactured.




31 October 2012 20:57  
Blogger John Magee said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1 November 2012 02:15  

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