Thursday, November 15, 2012

Women bishops and Anglican fudge



For some Anglicans, the thought of a woman bishop is almost as offensive as the prospect of a female Dr Who. For others, it’s a perfectly logical consequence of ordaining women as priests. There’s also a third group – because this is the Church of England – who don’t give damn either way. Together these disparate groups constitute a withering limb of Christ’s Body on earth.

There is a measure on women bishops coming before the General Synod next week. Lambeth Palace has made its position quite clear, urging Synod to vote 'yes' - under the banner of the 'Enough Waiting' campaign.

In the interests of balance and in good old via media fashion, His Grace would like to draw to the attention of his cyber flock the campaign being run by the Church Society – under the banner of ‘Together 4ward’ (snazzy, huh..?) – which urges Synod to vote 'no'.

But before you leap to judgment and accuse His Grace of unjust discrimination, outrageous prejudice, misogyny or some phobia or other, please listen very carefully to this plea. It is not at all an argument against women bishops or for the maintenance of the status quo, but an objection against the process by which the Church of England is conducting itself in this debate and to the bad legislation which is likely to result. The Church Society says on its website: “We are convinced from the Bible that female bishops are not biblical, but for the sake of church unity will compromise to allow them.”

The reality is that the proposed legislation sustains discrimination. Wherever there is a female bishop, there must be provision for a stand-in male bishop which ‘respects’ the reasons a parish may have for requesting one. There’s an awful lot of nebulous baggage in this word ‘respects’, not least 5000 years of theology, 2000 years of church history and 500 years of Anglican tradition.

Whether you are for or against women bishops, the obligation to ‘respect’ is not the solution: you might as well exhort each side simply to love one another and live in peace. Since they won’t hear that from Jesus Himself, they’re not likely to give much weight to a man-made statutory requirement to ‘respect’.

His Grace is all for viae mediae, but not those which are likely to lead to a much greater hurdle and tumultuous division at some point in the future over the mechanics of pastoral provision. How to express diversity within unity is worth getting right: the many-sidedness of truth and the plethora of degrees of rightness are worth long and prayerful meditation and very patient waiting.

78 Comments:

Blogger Paul de Mello said...

Why dnt Anglicans have larger dioceses and the appoint 2 bishops to them - 1 male, 1 female (ideally married). The Noahs ark principle?

15 November 2012 at 08:25  
Blogger Nancy Wallace said...

500 years of anglican tradition sees like a long time of patient waiting - how many more decades or centuries should there be? Yes, the measure is a fudge - but so is the anglican tradition isn't it?

15 November 2012 at 08:26  
Blogger Dave said...

The position of Lambeth to support the measure shows it loyalty to this world and its political fashions and a deperate desire to fit in like an outsider in a new school. The fitting in strategy isn't working. My experience is that the general populace despise moral cowardice.

15 November 2012 at 08:59  
Blogger Chantry Priest said...

Lady 'bishopesses' are "not biblical, but we will accept them"!!????.
'Birthright'; 'sold'; 'mess of pottage' come to mind, MESS, [in its modern sense]being the operative word.
What would the Fire-and-Brimstone, 'Scripture alone' evangelical Fathers [of whom yr Grace was once one] make of this?
Milk and water, lukewarm and without stones?
[and don't get me started on backslidden].

15 November 2012 at 09:25  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Your Grace

Many thanks for the link to Lambeth Palace and it's *laud/laughable* (no, it's not an error but a reflection of what it means to see both sides of the argument)attempt to justify women as both a bishop/priest as if the link is organic, whereas it is not.

"To recall the Church to its true character in this connection, God calls individuals to gather the community, animate its worship and preside at its sacramental acts, where we learn afresh who we are."

He declares who the church is, what its principles are and who we are in relation to Him and as we are to see ourselves. We are called to obey His commands!

"The earliest Christian generations reserved the Latin and Greek words for ‘priest’ to refer to bishops, because they saw bishops as the human source and focus for this ministry of reminding the Church of what it is. The idea that there is a class of presbyters (or indeed deacons) who cannot be bishops is an odd one in this context, and one that is hard to rationalise exclusively on biblical or patristic grounds."
This statement is unbiblical as an argument because this has been defined by St Paul in his epistles and requires not rationalisation on our part at all.

"As a Synod, we are asked to act not only as a legislature but as a body that serves the Kingdom of God and takes a spiritual and pastoral responsibility for its actions. And I know that Synod members, myself among them, will be praying hard about what this entails. "

To serve the Kingdom of God as the body your must obey the Head not talk away His precepts delivered and received once and for all to the saints.

The tragedy of the CofE is that they continue mirroring the error of the RCC, who many centuries ago changed their decrees and tradition handed down through Epistles and shown between correspondence of the early apostolic church fathers as to what is right or wrong to meet the demands and desires of the brave new world hence Augustine's City of God, for the church to justify it's place in the world and all the heresies that followed.
It continues in error, thinking itself justified before Christ and Men but it is not!

The CofE now finds itself forever compromising until it strips from itself the righteous white robes of Christ and is seen as spiritually naked.

Christ introduced himself to the church at Laodicea as "the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation" (3:14).

Jesus is the faithful and true witness. He spoke and did only what the Father commanded him, no matter the consequences (John 3:34; 5:36; 12:49). Christ revealed in The Book of Revelation as the faithful witness was a sharp contrast to the Laodiceans who witnessed only to their own supposed spiritual works before men.

The CofE is starting to make known its love of human ways and aspirations reflected by the society we are living in rather than Christ’s, who is it's King.

It is time they responded to Christ's counseling for them to apply a spiritual eye-salve so that they are see how far they have fallen. In short, they needed to be earnest(Ernst) and repent quickly(3:19).

The RCC has NEVER repented of it's ways and actually relishes them with a love beyond Christ whereas the Anglican tradition once 400 centuries ago repented of it's ways and turned to Him. May it do so again.

Ernst S Blofeld

15 November 2012 at 09:32  
Blogger Nowhere man said...

Crikey - female bishops, gay clergy, gay marriage, social justice, blah blah blah.

I'm waiting to hear, loud and clear, condemnation of persecution of Christians around the world and have something done about it.

How come the Barnabus Fund speaks out and the Arch Bish of Canterbury can visit Pakistan and apparently say nothing?

http://www.barnabasfund.org/UK/Home/

How about speaking out against ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, murder of Christians in Syria, Pakistan and egypt, islamic extremism, secularist domination of the public space and for trad marriage, self reliance, morality and so on.

If the CofE only spends its time on PC issues of no great matter whilst real people are persecuted and die and society crumbles then what possible use is it?

15 November 2012 at 09:41  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

ps

What next from Lambeth Palace?

"The 2nd Coming of Christ: the 'Enough Waiting' campaign.

Today The Archbishop of Canterbury, blah blah blah, has begun a campaign to persuade General Synod members to back the statement "He hasn't returned and it looks highly unlikely He never will". The new 'Just get on with your lives as you see fit' media publicity campaign starts when the synod returns to debate this organic shift in doctrine next month.

May we all in the Church of England ask God for His blessing in this endeavour"

E S Blofeld

15 November 2012 at 09:43  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

"He hasn't returned and it looks highly unlikely He never will". Ooops, EVER!

Forgive the poor eyesight.

Blofeld

15 November 2012 at 09:46  
Blogger Preacher said...

Too much talk & navel gazing seems to be the problem. Gnats & Camels again, while our brothers & sisters are dying for Christ & Israel fights for her survival.
Meanwhile the unsaved are going to Hell in a handcart.

15 November 2012 at 10:32  
Blogger Corrigan1 said...

I have not come with peace but with a sword, to set son against father and daughter against mother

Can anybody remind me Who said that? I ask because the quotation always seems to jump into my head whenever I hear Angicans whittering about compromise and "reaching out".

15 November 2012 at 12:01  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

If something is right, do it. If it's wrong, stop it.

1 Kings 18:21- Elijah went before the people and said, "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him." But the people said nothing.

ESB+T, "The 2nd Coming of Christ: the 'Enough Waiting' campaign" - Genius. Love it.

15 November 2012 at 12:32  
Blogger Julia Gasper said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

15 November 2012 at 12:41  
Blogger Julia Gasper said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

15 November 2012 at 12:44  
Blogger Julia Gasper said...

Jesus never appointed any official "bishops" at all, so the question of whether he would have appointed women is not a big issue. If you believe in the Apostolic Succession it is passed on by a priest by laying his hands on the head of another person. Women have hands and have heads, so where is your problem?

I note that this blog says below that it "does not allow anonymous comments". Therefore all contributors should provide a full name and photograph to prove their ID. Any others should surely have been weeded out long ago.

15 November 2012 at 12:45  
Blogger John said...

Given the outside pressure on the church to conform to modern civic society and allow women in all roles, I thought the opening statement was interesting.

Why hasn't there been a female Dr. Who? River Song shows that women are at least as competent at driving(?) a TARDIS. Other time lords (the Corsair) have changed gender.

Is there some reason the BBC does not see the Dr. Who role as open to women?

15 November 2012 at 12:52  
Blogger OldJim said...

Oh Ernst, and until I got to "The tragedy of the CofE" I genuinely thought I was going to be able to agree with an entire post of yours.

I genuinely felt pleased by the idea.

15 November 2012 at 13:40  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

It is quite obvious why a woman cannot play the part of the Doctor. There is only one Doctor and John Pertwee is his actor. All others are imposters and pretenders.

carl

15 November 2012 at 14:04  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

John:

You shall be cast into the Eye of Harmony for that blasphemy.

Where's Alpha Draconis when you need him?

15 November 2012 at 14:21  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Rebel Saint

"ESB+T, "The 2nd Coming of Christ: the 'Enough Waiting' campaign" - Genius. Love it." The truth is it is highly likely to become a reality? *Chortles*

Old Jim 15 November 2012 13:40

"Oh Ernst, and until I got to "The tragedy of the CofE" I genuinely thought I was going to be able to agree with an entire post of yours.

I genuinely felt pleased by the idea."

It's called a double edged sword, for it cuts both ways.

Where are those PS es you promised old fruit.*Huge chuckles and Cackles*

Ernsty

15 November 2012 at 14:43  
Blogger Thomas Keningley said...

We shouldn't agree to this unbiblical compromise. But then, we shouldn't have agreed to female presbyters in the first place.

Also there is the small matter that, as far as I can tell, episkopos in the pastoral epistles is the same as presbuteros elsewhere... Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Hooker's normative principle, but arguing whether a woman can take up an unbiblical office does put me in mind of questions about angels and pinheads of medieval times.

Of course there is the principle of male headship at stake here. But the church of England has LONG sold that one down the river.

Oh well. We muddle on... (*weakly*) Hooray for the via media...

15 November 2012 at 14:57  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

"If you believe in the Apostolic Succession it is passed on by a priest by laying his hands on the head of another person. Women have hands and have heads, so where is your problem?"
Nonsense old girl. Laying on of hands was passing on a blessing of ministry or empowerment of the spirit or healing and NEVER related to Apostolic succession/creating extra apostles thaqn those already commissioned or have you been ignorant of RCC teaching regarding the explicit criteria for apostleship, let alone Scripture..has any pope seen the risen lord or walked with Him as he toured the land of Israel.

You err, my girl.

Ernst Blofeld

15 November 2012 at 15:00  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Because the Church has become so fragmented and divided, it is no longer a credible influence to preach and teach to the generations in which all this change occurred, and of course to the subsequent generations. From trendy clergy and supporting divorce, to women clergy and even homosexuals, all contrary to what is in the Bible. I don't see how it can be taken seriously anymore if it goes ahead with women bishops. It will be more like another trendy club one can join.

It has taken a wrong turn and so must haul itself back on to the path to be able to hold us to account for our sins and teach moral guidance. Otherwise, increasingly degenerate secularists and humanists will have increasing amounts of ammunition to fire at it.

15 November 2012 at 15:02  
Blogger Jon said...

Julia - I've got some sad news for you. This blog isn't really written by a long dead Archbishop - you are confusing pseudonymous with anonymous.



15 November 2012 at 15:08  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Jon,

Yeah, not sure why Ms Gasper wants to have everyone's addresses.

If asked to give an address here, I would of course have no problem with that as it is 7 Savile Row, Burlington Gardens, London.

And if I'm in New York, the Dolphin Hotel. Just don't put me in room 1408.

LOL...

15 November 2012 at 15:32  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

In respect of Who, as Brigadier Sir Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart said " wonderful chaps, all of them".

Personally I wouldn't want a female who. Anyway, Jenna-Louise Coleman, is going to be absolutely stunning as the new companion.

15 November 2012 at 15:38  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

“We are convinced from the Bible that female bishops are not biblical, but for the sake of church unity will compromise to allow them.”

Ditto for:

- Abortion;

- Homosexuality;

- Divorce and remarriage;

- Contraception;

The 'via media' is a wonderful method of compromising on all things Biblical!

Ernsty

Poor eyesight and developing dementia are terrible afflictions. However, whatever way you phrase this ....

"He hasn't returned and it looks highly unlikely He never will". Ooops, EVER!
Forgive the poor eyesight."


... it is terribly, terribly unbiblical!

15 November 2012 at 16:21  
Blogger Pete said...

As the guy in the video, may I please explain that the following sentence needs to be emended from:

“We are convinced from the Bible that female bishops are not biblical, but for the sake of church unity will compromise to allow them.”

to:

“We are convinced from the Bible that female bishops are not biblical, but because we are also convinced it is a secondary issue, for the sake of church unity will compromise to allow them.”

There are some issues we will not compromise on, others we will. My friends and I take that stance because of passages like Romans 14:1-12 and Romans 1:18-32. In one place in Romans Paul says something is a denial of the gospel and a fundamental, in another place he says something is secondary and worth putting aside.

Not all issues are of the same importance. For further info, you may wish to glance at http://together4ward.wordpress.com/understanding-the-issues/understanding-the-issues-3/

15 November 2012 at 16:28  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Dodo

"Ernsty

Poor eyesight and developing dementia are terrible afflictions. However, whatever way you phrase this ....

"He hasn't returned and it looks highly unlikely He never will". Ooops, EVER!
Forgive the poor eyesight."

... it is terribly, terribly unbiblical!"

As is Apostolic Sussesion, my dear bird..The effect on Ernst is like an elephant being bitten by a worm. *Gumming Sound*;-)

Ernst

15 November 2012 at 16:56  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Eunuchs would be the best compromise and a solution to deal with kiddie fiddlers at the same time

15 November 2012 at 17:00  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Ernsty

Not quite the same thing, my dear man. At least an argument can be made for Apostolic Succession based on The Acts of the Apostles. But Our Lord never returning?! I don't think so

Being unscholarlyin these matters I rely, as youknow, on the Church's teaching. So, as the Catechism puts it:

"Since the Ascension Christ's coming in glory has been imminent, even though "it is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority.". This eschatological coming could be accomplished at any moment, even if both it and the final trial that will precede it are "delayed".

The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by "all Israel", for "a hardening has come upon part of Israel" in their "unbelief" toward Jesus. St.

Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old."

St. Paul echoes him: "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?" The "full inclusion" of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of "the full number of the Gentiles", will enable the People of God to achieve "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ", in which "God may be all in all".

Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.

The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh."

So continue to hope, there's agood chap. Jesus always keeps His word. and why not join the Catholics in our fervent prayer:

Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

15 November 2012 at 17:56  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...



The Inspector has a friend in Worcester, Paul B. A high Anglican. He informs this man that high Anglicanism as a CoE tradition is dead. It survives in pockets but is not in the ascendancy. Defeated armies survive in pockets also, for a time. Until the combatants start to drift away, looking for a new home. Can’t see the Archbishop turning papist, but maybe Methodism will one day benefit from his austere presence.

For an RC brought up in the company of high Anglicans in his childhood. It’s all desperately sad. Those types have passed on now, and hopefully in receipt of
their heavenly reward, which is what it’s all about, when you cast away thoughts of modernising and get down to the basics. Their children went to the red brick universities, came into contact with social liberal ideas and here we are.

Paradoxically, this man is keen to know what comes next. Once the ladies get to the top, out the window go solid tenets, and in comes compromise on a massive scale. Really big changes are on their way. This man believes the nearest correlation will be with what happened to education in England. A once quality product at secondary level now turning out course work thickos who all pass and whose qualifications give little idea as to their ability.

Final thought. The tabloids are going to have a field day. Sunbathing topless lady bishops wearing pink mitres. Bishopettes walking around making a damn fashion statement. It’s sure to happen. After all, there seems to be no end to these proud ambitious modernisations.





15 November 2012 at 18:23  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Off topic, but this man has come back from voting for the Gloucestershire Police Commissioner. By far the best candidate was the lady barrister whose discourse ticked all the right boxes. Couldn’t vote for her though, she’s running under the tory ticket. And having signed the pledge so to speak, shunning conservative candidates until ssm is thrown out, couldn’t even give her the second preference vote. How did that happen ! One thought that kind of Clegg nonsense was put in the bin by the people.

Rather encouraging to know there are still men of Christian principle still around, even if it is yourself.

pip pip !

15 November 2012 at 18:32  
Blogger len said...

Agree with your comment@15 November 2012 10:32 Preacher.

The most important thing is to get the unadulterated Gospel of Jesus Christ preached to a dying World!.

15 November 2012 at 19:20  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

The press release from Lambeth Palace by R Williams (The.. Women Bishops.. Sod you we have waited long enough -- or words to that effect one)

1500 words, 23 paragraphs not a single referenced Bible quote in the article.

Anyone surprised?

No. Come on you did you expect Williams to quote from the Bible?

Do you think we'll get "respect" when it is passed?

Not a chance.

Phil

15 November 2012 at 19:33  
Blogger Jon Tseng said...

Hullo Pete!

I have to agree with OP that I thought the video wasn't using a smart argument. If you argue that we should accommodate the views of others who have a Biblical but variant reading on women bishops, why shouldn't those who arguing loving gay relationships are Biblically justified use the same argument? Feels like by taking this line you are opening up a can of worms for the future.

Now you point out that this is applicable because this is a second order issue. But that simply shifts the argument away from the more fundamental matter of Biblical truth to a second order debate about whether this is or is not a second order issue. At best that approach to doctrinal disputes is unproductive, at worst it is dangerous.

So as I said I think while this video maybe a sensible tactical move, Its not a smart strategic idea.

Best regards

Jonathan

15 November 2012 at 22:24  
Blogger Flossie said...

OIG at 18.23

http://www.ladyvicar.com/vibrant-vicar.html

15 November 2012 at 22:48  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Good Lord Flossie, our American cousins are already there !

Gentlemen, ladies are lovely creatures, but when it comes to getting your eternal hide beyond this life, trust a man every time.

15 November 2012 at 23:08  
Blogger John Magee said...

It's sad to see a great branch of the Christian Church take another step toward "churchacide". It's almost as if the Anglican Church is begging for it's total demise.

Who here remembers when in July 1984 a bolt of lightening hit the south transept of York Cathedral causing the ceiling to burn and collapse and cause enormous damage? The firemen flooded the roof of the transept with water from their hoses to save the entire Cathedral roof from flames.

This "bolt out of the blue" that hit York Cathedral came three days after a new Anglican Bishop of Durham Cathedral was consecrated. His name was Dr. David Jenkins known for his controversial views on the Virgin Birth and a comment he once made comparing the Resurrection to a "conjuring trick with bones" and his claimed that Christ lacked a physical body. Some consider the lightening that hit York Cathedral a few days later Devine Retribution.

A few others claim it was a beam from a UFO.

I think it was just bad luck during a thunderstorm in the middle of the night.

Bishopettes in the Church of England? I would be wary if I lived in SE England of what might come out of the blue and strike or shake the ground under Canterbury Cathedral over this latest possibility of future C of E bishopettes wearing miters.

They have them in the USA and these women look rediculous in full Medieval Catholic bishop's regalia.


15 November 2012 at 23:09  
Blogger Matt A said...

Flossie:

The "Spotted Joy" seems to be LSD inspired....

15 November 2012 at 23:12  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

The "Fireworks Fun" too - they would make excellent hotpants!

15 November 2012 at 23:22  
Blogger Laurence Boyce said...

This video is tragic. Groovy music and Mr cool guy (not really succeeding) delivering sad self-serving theological drivel. I liked this quote:

"The vote this month is not about whether you are for or against women bishops."

You know, I think it might be . . .

15 November 2012 at 23:26  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Ah yes John, Bishop David Jenkins, CoE

Another CoE bishop in the news lately is Peter Ball. Well known to the folk around these parts. Twenty years ago, Gloucester needed a new bishop. Lambeth palace, in it’s wisdom, unkindly sent us the highest ranking nonce on it’s books, the man Ball. Well, he soon ot down to a bit a gross indecency. Somehow he was spared the townsfolk descending on his palace with pitchforks and flaming torches, mores the pity...

Liberal church, no please...

15 November 2012 at 23:28  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

The Vibrant Vicar

"The essence of our shirt design is a gracious and comfortable feminine fit..."

How fab!

"We customize your body measurements and sleeve lengths ...!

One expects no less!

"Pullover design, close fitted to the neck and to upper chest, relaxed semi-ft in torso area, creating a "skim, not cling" effect over stomach, waist and hips ..."

Splendid!

"Elegant length for wearing out over skirts or trousers and ideal underarm fitting for ease of wearing under a suit jacket ..."

Exceptional - all eyes will be on me!

It just seems so unfair these are not unisex! I guess those men *so inclined* can place.

15 November 2012 at 23:33  
Blogger John Magee said...

Inspector

Ever hear the 1930's popular song "The Lambeth Walk"? Look it up on youtube.

It's an might be an appropriate song for the subject of "bishopettes".

I love the country side too. Fortunately it's relatively unspoiled around here. Rolling hills, country roads through valleys lined with old farms and then a drive through woods up to the top of the hills with views more for more than 30 miles to the mountains east of us. On most roads little traffic so it's excellent for motorcycle and bike riding. Our countryside here is very much like parts of England but more like the countryside in parts southern Germany in Wurttemberg north of the Alps .if you've ever been there.

Last year I sold by first brand new car. I bought it in 1976. A navy blue VW convertable which I kept in mint condition for 35 years and only drove it after the 1980's on short country rides in the evening or during a beautiful sunny day. The grandchcildren loved a ride in it and they loved stopping when we saw horses or sheep. Sometimes we had a picnic in the woods or along a stream. One farm had a herd of goats who rushed to the fence to greet us. Goats are silly looking creatures. Another treat was a herd of magnificent Belgian Percheon horses. Selling the VW was like losing a family member but I am downsizing and she had to go. I young man bought it who I know will treasure it and that makes it's loss easier.

15 November 2012 at 23:34  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Apologies for the spelling chaps, it’s been a long day for your favourite Inspector General, and he admits to being slightly over the legal limit...

Goodnight, Christians everywhere...

hic !

15 November 2012 at 23:35  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Inspector

The situation of Peter Ball is indeed tragic. From what I know of him, he was a fervent preacher and and laboured tirelessly for Christ.

Why are so many men who dedicate their life to God brought down by sexual sin - and frequently homosexual sin at that?

Peter Ball resigned as Bishop of Gloucester in 1993 after admitting to an act of gross indecency with a 19-year-old man and accepting a formal police caution for it. Today, it would not be a criminal offence and the Church of England would probably overlook his homosexuality, seeing his behaviour as indiscretion.

How times have changed!

To be honest, my prayers are with him as well as any who prove to be victims.

15 November 2012 at 23:51  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

And, I should add, if he is guilty of any offences against children then, if he is a man of God, he will know he must confess - illness or not he must face this last (but one) trial.

16 November 2012 at 00:13  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

23:24
I can't decide if this is a senile old man's reverie or an allegorical
tale.Of course it is possible that you are some sort of a spy using this site to send coded messages under the guise of a daft old codger.Regardless, it gave me a good laugh. I like your whimsy flights into insanity!

16 November 2012 at 02:28  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

the above is for John Magee
23:34

16 November 2012 at 02:33  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

There are three separate aspects to this argument that must be kept separate.

1. The Honest Disagreement between Believers. This can be managed by separate authority structures on the theory that 'good fences make good neighbors.' You can't have two different views within the same organization. But these two groups can coexist and work together in much the same way the Baptists can work with Presbyterians.

2. The Scriptural Compromise that attends the pro-WO side of the honest disagreement. To legitimize women's ordination, the affirmative side in the honest disagreement must norm an imperative of Scripture according to an external standard - in this case the modern presupposition of egalitarianism. This is a dangerous precedent that can easily spin into other more destructive errors. Once you establish the principle that Scripture can be normed, you will find it easy to apply that principle in other areas.

3. Women's Ordination as a stalking horse for liberal religion. This is the case in the CoE. It is why approving this measure will seal the fate of the established church. The advent of women bishops will solidify the control of liberals over the church hierarchy and thus trigger the inevitable outflow of conservatives from the CoE. It will become a self-reinforcing dynamic. As more conservatives leave, the liberal agenda will become easier to enact - thus driving out more conservatives. There are plenty of liberals who want to see this happen but most of them won't join let alone contribute towards the resulting church. They are only interested in removing an opponent of the post-modern worldview. Within 20 years the CoE will be either deserted, bankrupt, and disestablished, or deserted and funded by the Gov't.

carl

16 November 2012 at 04:23  
Blogger Manfarang said...

There have been women priests in the Catholic Church.Ludmilla Javorova is believed to be the first woman in modern times to have been ordained a Catholic priest by a bishop who was in full communion with Rome.
Florence Tim Oi Li was the first Anglican women priest. I don't Chinese Christians are considered particularly liberal.

16 November 2012 at 05:45  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Oops I don't think Chinese Christians are particularly liberal.
Anyway back to the book about Guan Yin.

16 November 2012 at 05:51  
Blogger Flossie said...

Spot on (as usual) Carl. The people who will happily push their Christian brothers and sisters out of church to get their own way will soon be running the show, and I have pointed out before (many times) that WATCH, the pro-women pressure group, have been hand-in-hand with the Inclusive Church (gay pressure group) movement for a number of years on a 'you scratch our backs and we'll scratch yours' basis.

Those who sit in the middle, who think that they can have one without the other, are in for a rude awakening.

16 November 2012 at 08:56  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Manfarang

Ludmilla Javorova may well have undergone an ordination ceremony but this does not mean she was a Catholic priest.

The Catholic Church is clear that an ordination ceremony performed on a woman is invalid and illicit. Pope John Paul II has written: "Priestly ordination, which hands on the office entrusted by Christ to his Apostles of teaching, sanctifying and governing the faithful, has in the Catholic Church from the beginning always been reserved to men alone." This is the position reflected in the Code of Canon Law.

The Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, with the authorisation of the Pope, has decreed automatic excommunication against anyone who attempts to confer a sacred order on a woman, and also any the woman who attempts to receive a sacred order.

Discipline, not compromise, is the Catholic way!

Enjoy the Buddhist mythology about Guanyin - is it the one where she has eleven heads and a thousand arms?

16 November 2012 at 09:03  
Blogger Manfarang said...

The way to freedom is through disciplines that enable us to give up attachments and exercise wisdom and compassion. This is the Noble Path.

16 November 2012 at 10:11  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Yep, you sit in the lotus position, under a tree, and chant away happily.

16 November 2012 at 10:17  
Blogger Manfarang said...

I will sit under a tree and read a book about Pope Joan.

16 November 2012 at 13:05  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

But you're not supposed to read anything - especially fiction. Meditate, there's a good lad.

16 November 2012 at 19:46  
Blogger John Magee said...

Some peope have no humor or immigination.

Isn't Lambeth Palace the London home of the Archbishop of Canterbury?

The Lambeth Walk, was hudge pop tune in Britain from 1938...Look it up on Youtube. The best version is:

Lambeth Walk - Michael Flome

I visualize this late 30's pop song being played while the bishopettes stroll out of Lambeth Palace in full Medieval Catholic Bishop's regalia on their way to their consecrations.

For those who know anything about that era the "Lambeth Walk" was played over a film of Hitler's troops marching at the Nuremberg Rallies which made Goebbels apoplectic.

How is this concept "insane"?

17 November 2012 at 01:45  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

Pity you took offense when none was meant. 'Insane' can mean hilarity in the vernacular. I mistakenly thought you had a sense of humour.

just a tomato plant acknowledging
an elderly limped leaved lettuce
at the other end of the salad garden

I wont bother again.

17 November 2012 at 04:42  
Blogger Darter Noster said...

Why the downer on meditating and chanting Dodo? Christianity has a fine tradition of both...

This statement of Manfarang's - "The way to freedom is through disciplines that enable us to give up attachments and exercise wisdom and compassion." - could have been written by any number of Christian monks or mystics.

17 November 2012 at 08:21  
Blogger OldJim said...

Darter Noster
That is true and I agree, but that being said I feel the need to make the qualification.

Christians give up worldly attachments so that their desires will be better ordered. Buddhists give up worldly attachments that they might cease to desire.

It is a strong and meaningful difference, and a very indicative one.

17 November 2012 at 09:50  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Dodo
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't.

By the way,the Cao Dai have a vacancy for a pope.

17 November 2012 at 11:24  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Yes .... but is any self immolation involved being confirmed into said position? Besides, I always giggle at seances; just can't help myself.

Hoa! Hao! Hoa! as Father Christmas might say.

17 November 2012 at 12:06  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

By the way, there is only one Way.

"We turn clay to make a vessel; But it is on the space where there is nothing that the usefulness of the vessel depends."

17 November 2012 at 12:17  
Blogger Manfarang said...

The way or tao as it is known-

“In the beginning was the Tao, and the Tao was with God, and the Tao was God"

Hòa Hảo


17 November 2012 at 12:43  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

That's not quite how it goes!

As someone once observed:

"The Tao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Tao."

17 November 2012 at 18:30  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Darter Nosta asked ...

"Why the downer on meditating and chanting Dodo?"

I have no such thing!

Meditating on Christ and entering the 'Cloud of Unknowing' is to be commended. Gregorian prayer and chanting is sublime.

The purpose of our life is not to achieve 'Nirvana' and become a part of an impersonal being. Rather, we are called to become one with Jesus Christ, God and man, and join with Him as part of a personal Godhead.

I have a great deal of respect for some ancient Easterm philosophy, particularly that from China, but not for modern Buddism and its variants.

18 November 2012 at 01:04  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Dodo
It is how it goes in Chinese Bibles.

18 November 2012 at 12:21  
Blogger Manfarang said...

18 November 2012 at 12:39  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Manfarang

You are correct and I was wrong.

Having red around this a bit - as I'm no linguist - I see the Greek word for "word" is "Logos". It was used as a word that implied "universal reason", or the "reason above man’s reasoning"; a transcendent, ideal Reason.

St. John used a Greek philosophical term to describe Jesus. Scholars believe that John was writing his Gospel with the Greeks and Hellenized Romans as his intended audience; thus, his use of Logos as a means to communicate that Jesus was the transcendent representation of all that was reason. However, by John's time the term “Logos” had undergone change in meaning through the attempts of Philo to synthesize the word with a Judaist understanding, so we can only speculate about John’s conception of Logos and exactly what he meant by using it in reference to Jesus.

"Tao" is God, according to the Chinese who translate Gospel John 1:1 thus: "In the beginning was the Tao, and the Tao was with God, and the Tao was God". According to the English translation of the Bible, the Word is God. And according to the original Greek version, Logos is God.

The word "Logos" connotes life, light, creation, power, wisdom, love, healing, spirit, force, knowledge, rational, logic, reality, and method. The Chinese word Tao has the same connotations as the word Logos.

"In Chinese culture, ‘what is truth?’ isn’t the question being asked" states Prothero, "Rather than asking after truth as did the Greeks, Taoism asks about where to go: what is the way to the Way? For the Chinese, The Way is the Tao ... it is the transcendent Way to life … to abundant life." Taoism believes to be fully human is to dance with this God, moving in rhythm with its core values of naturalness, equanimity, spontaneity, and freedom.

So the Chinese Christian Bible says that Jesus is the Tao, meaning He is the personal Life force, with whom all of us need to connect.

I have learned something and I thank you, Sir.

Thank you too for the Chinese character for The Way.

18 November 2012 at 17:09  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Manfarang

You may now return to meditating under your tree. You may find a suitable verse below for chanting.

I danced in the morning when the world was young
I danced in the moon and the stars and the sun
I came down from heaven and I danced on the earth
At Bethlehem I had my birth

Dance, dance, wherever you may be
I am the Lord of the Dance, said He
And I lead you all, wherever you may be
And I lead you all in the dance, said He

I danced for the scribes and the Pharisees
They wouldn't dance, they wouldn't follow me
I danced for the fishermen James and John
They came with me so the dance went on

I danced on the Sabbath and I cured the lame
The holy people said it was a shame
They ripped, they stripped, they hung me high
Left me there on the cross to die

I danced on a Friday when the world turned black
It's hard to dance with the devil on your back
They buried my body, they thought I was gone
But I am the Dance, and the dance goes on

They cut me down and I leapt up high
I am the Life that will never, never die
I'll live in you if you'll live in me
I am the Lord of the dance, said He

Dance, dance, wherever you may be
I am the Lord of the Dance, said he
And I lead you all, wherever you may be
And I lead you all in the dance, said He

18 November 2012 at 17:37  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Christianity is an attitude.

So all it takes is to spot a person without that attitude and not let them in.

Narrow is the way.

If a woman, made like one of you men, comes that way; who are you to stop her? She is not made like those pierced by gold or silver.

Apostle Paul came for justification through faith. She came because she already had found salvation.

Who do you admit to stay with the children?

19 November 2012 at 01:01  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

"Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me."

Not an attitude; a union with Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, the God-man, through membership of His Mystical Body here on earth - the Church.

19 November 2012 at 22:36  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

"The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth."


Great wisdom from 4000BC.

Christians believe that God did reveal His name, His nature and His purpose. First through the Jews and then Jesus - God and man.

Why did He choose the Jews and not some other people? Only He knows.

20 November 2012 at 01:18  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Most countries of the world have Jewish communities.Ancient China was no exception-the Kaifeng Jews.
China was the only country where the Jews became completely
assimilated.

20 November 2012 at 05:29  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Yes and there were early Christian communities in China too. Look at the mess and mahem Christianity brought in the 19th century with its competing protestant denominations and ill-considered teaching - not to say the Imperial West.

A tragedy for the world.

20 November 2012 at 14:41  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Nestorians.

21 November 2012 at 03:32  

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