Friday, January 25, 2013

EU Referendum: the 'Outers' can win with i-Democracy


This is not so much a guest post: it has been penned by Brother Ivo, who has joined His Grace's emerging Ministry Team. This blog has been going now for nigh-on seven years, and most of you cannot imagine (let alone appreciate) the sheer effort and thousands of ash-hours that have been poured into bringing the world a daily homily just about every morning. Brother Ivo has come to His Grace's assistance, and to bring a little more Anglican scholastic thought in a latitudinarian manner. He begins by taking up yesterday's important theme:

His Grace has posed the question 'Who is to lead the “No Campaign” in the EU Referendum?' and that remains an important question for the years ahead. Politics will still need its big beasts in the time leading up to that final vote, and for now, we can only trust that a David will be found amongst us to slay the Goliath that is the EU Establishment.

We have however moved on from the days of the Wilson Referendum, and just as David triumphed over the fully-armoured giant using skill, intelligence, fleetness of foot and quick thinking, it is worth reminding ourselves just how well the under-resourced end of the spectrum has performed in making the recently unthinkable happen.

When Britons were last offered a choice in this matter, the entire debate was focused through a limited number of media outlets. There were only three television channels; two of them run by the State. A dozen Fleet Street editors of newspapers and magazines set the agenda and few of them broke ranks against the joint view of the Two-Party Establishment.

It is a scant 18 months since the Prime Minister was declaring the need for his party to 'stop banging on about Europe', and even though the Conservative Party has become more centrally controlled, the earth under the PM’s feet has moved seismically and he could no longer maintain the fiction that people did not see the need for EU reform.

'We the people' saw and understood the issue better than he and the party spin doctors gave us credit. We joined up the dots and detected the relevance of the European monolith across a raft of policy areas from Justice and Immigration to De-regulation and crony Capitalism.

In his book The End of Politics and the birth of i-Democracy Douglas Carswell links chronic national debt to the failure of democracy, a breakdown which exists at both a national and trans-national/EU level.
“The West is in debt because Western Democracy has not been alive to the task of keeping Government small. It has failed to rein in officialdom allowing limited government to give way to Leviathan.”
Yet as he identifies the threat, he draws attention to the weapons of mass destruction in our hands, the very pebbles by which Cameron’s initial disinterest was disturbed and which render the old advantages of the Big Government obsolete.

The critique of the EU developed under the radar in countless discussions, on websites, news feeds, Facebook pages, radio phone-ins, and tweets. None of these existed in 1975. Such technological changes underpinned the Arab Spring and the effects in sophisticated economies will be no less potent.

The People’s Pledge is an organisation that has brought together people from across the political and social spectrum; people as disparate as Bob Crow, Charles Moore, Jenny Jones, and Ian Dale. There were such odd alliances last time with Peter Shore, Tony Benn and Enoch Powell all working together, but the scale of the communications revolution over the next four years is not to be underestimated.

The power of grassroots communication is much greater than it was in the Wilson years: then ordinary folk might have had a typewriter; but only a few even had access to a Roneo machine.

Now we all have mobile phones with the capacity to turn us into instant worldwide journalists via email and YouTube.

Given the pace of technological change hitherto, there is no reason to believe that that is about to slow even as the debate intensifies.

Carswell envisages a future in which more is done by the choice of the individual because the current mechanisms are simply unaffordable. He predicts that 'the digital revolution will do to the grand planners of the West what the collapse of Communism did to the Soviet planners in the Soviet bloc'.

On this blog we are aware of today but we also remember yesterday. The Duke of Wellington remarked that battles are won by the led, but victories are conceived in the minds of leaders. We should not denigrate great leadership if it should come our way, but we need not assume that the power of change will look like it did in the past. We may indeed find ourselves surprised as David himself was surprised.

His motto for success might have been that of the Alabama State American Football Team which worked on the premise that they must all take responsibility for success.

If no leader emerges quickly it will serve as a rallying cry.

To succeed, their coach used to tell them they must be 'Lean, Mean, Mobile, Agile, and Hostile'.

166 Comments:

Blogger Naomi King said...

There went out a champion out of the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span. And he had an helmet of brass upon his head, and he was armed with a coat of mail; and the weight of the coat was five thousand shekels of brass. And he had greaves of brass upon his legs, and a target of brass between his shoulders. And the staff of his spear was like a weaver's beam; and his spear's head weighed six hundred shekels of iron: and one bearing a shield went before him. And he stood and cried unto the armies of Israel, and said, I defy the armies of Israel this day; give me a man, that we may fight together. When Saul and all Israel heard those words of the Philistine, they were dismayed, and greatly afraid. For Israel and the Philistines had put the battle in array, army against army. And David as he talked with them, behold, there came up the champion, the Philistine of Gath, Goliath by name, out of the armies of the Philistines, and spake according to the same words: and David heard them. And all the men of Israel, when they saw the man, fled from him, and were sore afraid. And David spake to the men that stood by him, saying, What shall be done to the man that killeth this Philistine, and taketh away the reproach from Israel? for who is this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should defy the armies of the living God? And David said to Saul, Let no man's heart fail because of him; thy servant will go and fight with this Philistine. And Saul said to David, Thou art not able to go against this Philistine to fight with him: for thou art but a youth, and he a man of war from his youth. And David said unto Saul, Thy servant kept his father's sheep, and there came a lion, and a bear, and took a lamb out of the flock: And I went out after him, and smote him, and delivered it out of his mouth: and when he arose against me, I caught him by his beard, and smote him, and slew him. Thy servant slew both the lion and the bear: and this uncircumcised Philistine shall be as one of them, seeing he hath defied the armies of the living God. And the Philistine said unto David, Am I a dog, that thou comest to me with staves? And the Philistine cursed David by his gods. David said moreover, The LORD that delivered me out of the paw of the lion, and out of the paw of the bear, he will deliver me out of the hand of this Philistine. And Saul said unto David, Go, and the LORD be with thee. Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied. This day will the LORD deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcasses of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel. And all this assembly shall know that the LORD saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the LORD's, and he will give you into our hands.

25 January 2013 at 09:13  
Blogger JimS said...

Surely what is needed is an EU-wide campaign? If the fires of revolt burn over the whole continent the small brains of the 'euro-elite' will be overwhelmed, they will not know where to turn.

Fortunately, at the moment, the internet knows no boundaries within Europe.

25 January 2013 at 09:49  
Blogger Di said...

The grand European project has advanced by stealth and lies ever since its inception in the 1950s. Schmann & Manet admitted that was the only way a federal Europe could be created, because voters would be sure to reject it.

Expect more stealth and lies from Europe's political leaders for the next five years! All the forces of hell that drive the Project onward will be marshalled to ensure a 'Yes" vote.

When the Irish voted 'No' an EU spokewoman said that the reason the EU lost was because they did not control the internet, through which their opponent's arguments were publicised. That oversight has been noted and will surely have been rectified before anyone else gets a chance to vote.

25 January 2013 at 10:00  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Carswell now blogs profusely and incisively about how the oligarchical elite feed like parasites on the people, and how a corrupt and compromised Parliament is incapable of holding the Executive to account. They (theo-political heretics) tend to preach subversive sermons and write revolutionary tracts in the hope of winning a few souls to salvation, before being burned at the stake. He writes, “legislatures have been sidelined. Public policy is made with little reference to the public.” Hence David Cameron can lie without shame, introduce homosexual so called "marriage" against the will of his own Party and change the succession despite the Royal Family's opposition.

The West is in a state of acute crisis – spiritual, moral, financial and political. Internal and external corruption and bankruptcy is the beginning of the outcome. We witness again the inculcation of an ‘official mind’ or public policy dogma which prescribes a prevailing socio-political orthodoxy be it political correctness (you have to believe what the EU believes) or health and safety (the catch all to prevent all unwanted action such as the wearing of christian symbols at work). However there is hope (there is always hope in Christ the King) the priestly technocrats of the 'progressive' central-directing authority can be displaced by the laity, the ordinary citizens armed with the internet, blogs, Facebook, Twitter, iPhones and iPads. It will be democracy by personalised App, just like the exercise of Laity power in the General Synod only a month or so ago. Vive la House of Laity. Blogs such as this one have transformed not only how news travels, but how truth is conceptualised and imparted.

As George Galloway observed when he crushed Labour in the 2012 Bradford West by-election, ‘our media was social media... Twitter, Facebook and YouTube... at the touch of a button, I can speak to thousands of people... our election campaign was built entirely outside the Westminster bubble’.

25 January 2013 at 10:02  
Blogger Manfarang said...

JimS
Britain has lost an empire and not yet found a role doesn't apply to the rest of Europe and not of course in the Republic of Ireland.

25 January 2013 at 10:50  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace

Sir

The late evangelist Derek Prince in WW II was a British soldier in North Africa under appalling leadership (where officers had water for their whisky whilst men under them went thirsty). The British army was retreating to Cairo – and the Germans were threatening to do to the Jews in Palestine what they did to them in Europe.

God laid it on Prince’s heart to pray: “Lord, give us leaders such that it will be for Your glory to give us victory through them.” Our Government selected Gen. W.H.E. “Strafer” Gott (to replace the then leader) – Gott was ‘taken away’. Churchill appointed an ‘unknown’: B.L. Montgomery.

Montgomery was the son of an evangelical Anglican bishop. He was a man who very definitely fulfilled God’s two requirements in a leader of men. He was just and God-fearing. He was also a man of tremendous discipline. Within two months, he had instilled a totally new sense of discipline into his officers and had thus restored the confidence of the men in their leaders.

...El Alamein was the turning point of the war in North Africa.

From Prince’s diary:

‘Two or three days after the battle, I found myself in the desert a few miles behind the advancing Allied forces. A small portable radio beside me on the tailboard of a military truck was relaying a news commentator’s description of the scene at Montgomery’s headquarters as he had witnessed it on the eve of the battle. He recalled how Montgomery publicly called his officers and men to prayer, saying , “Let us ask the Lord, mighty in battle, to give us the victory.” As these words came through that portable radio, God spoke very clearly to my spirit, “That is the answer to your prayer.”

‘I believe that the prayer which God gave me at that time could well be applied to other situations, both military and political:

‘“Lord, give us leaders such that it will be for Your glory to give us victory through them.”’

25 January 2013 at 10:55  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Brother Ivo/Your Grace,
An interesting comparison with Goliath.
I would point again to the Kinnock election, where to everyone’s shock, he lost. God turned it around.

25 January 2013 at 11:04  
Blogger Naomi King said...


Rees Howells, that Great Welsh Intercessor and founder of the Bible College of Wales, is another example of the supernatural power of prayer over political and military events.

25 January 2013 at 11:22  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Welcome Brother Ivo: I trust you have been adequately renumerated for your labours by our archepiscopal host. Joyful though the servant heart is, good work should always be rewarded.

You're bang on the money about iDemocracy (what a revolting term btw), though. Indeed, Carswell's whole point is that a grassroots surge in support has the potential to be sustainable in and of itself. That being the case: what use the deceitful Cameron?

25 January 2013 at 12:17  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace


Br Ivo makes an interesting point: 'but we need not assume that the power of change will look like it did in the past'.


In other words the instrument of change could be the Internet.


I read a report that people prefer to receive their news on their mobile phones and the tablet than through the television set - but if that be the case then they are also open to alternative news sites and arguments: bypassing the BBC and Government propaganda.


If we do re-elect Cameron (so that we can have our referendum) and Cameron sides with that foreign power the EU then the dream scenario could appear:


The People versus Cameron.


Beautiful!


25 January 2013 at 12:54  
Blogger Albert said...

There isn't going to be a referendum, because Dave will lose the next election. Look at at today's economic figures (and there's worse to come, it seems). Look at the people who have moved to UKIP - not just over Europe, but also about things like gay "marriage". Even if (per impossibile) Dave were PM after the next election, he would need more MPs than he has now, or he wouldn't be able to pass the legislation for the referendum. And even if all those tests were passed, I have no doubt Dave will find an excuse not to deliver - he would be highly unlikely to meet his own deadline (because it is contingent on things outside of his power) and so he will have excuses for not doing it.

No amount of sweets thrown by him to the naive, is going to make this happen.

So Christians shouldn't let themselves be bribed. Dave has set himself against the Creator in his attack on marriage. It is truly amazing that any Christian would somehow use this empty promise to assuage their conscience in voting for such a man.

25 January 2013 at 13:18  
Blogger Jon said...

Leaving the politics aside for a second, it's going to be interesting watching the paroxysms on here when the CoE commits itself to a position on this (a pro- European one, I'm guessing). We all know which way the Catholic Church will lean.

Will there be further laboured allusions to David and Goliath as the "better off out" brigade attack the monolithic facades of corporate religion from within, or will Naomi King, The Inspector et al rush for the doors and leave their mother churches for the religious purity of non conformity.

I wonder who will have the courage of their convictions...

25 January 2013 at 13:27  
Blogger David Hussell said...

The nation needs to put it's trust in God. We need to pray for leaders who are convinced Christians.

25 January 2013 at 13:35  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Albert


How can the offer of a referendum be a bribe when it is the very thing we have pleaded for?

25 January 2013 at 13:40  
Blogger Owl said...

Mr. Singh,

"The People versus Cameron"

You have come to the crux of the matter although I would have added "and his kind" as Dave is just the mouthpiece.

All that Dave is aiming for is to put the battle a long way down the road relying on "many a slip twixt cup and lip".

Dave is a Fabian lackey as are his hangers on.

This is a movement, not a conspiracy as such.

Now, to oppose Cameron we need to oppose those behind him.

I am amazed that anyone can be taken in by this. Preparing for a battle five years down the road is what he obviously wants. It takes pressure off the here and now and allows them to get the Bishops and Knights positioned on the board in good time. It's a game you see.

Pure con, and I don't mean conservative.

25 January 2013 at 13:42  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Absolutely - David Hussell and also that God will lift up new Christian leaders in to High Office.

This is the warning George Washington gave in his inaugural address as the 1st President of the United States of America, on 30th April 1789.

"The propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a Nation that disregards eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained."

25 January 2013 at 13:42  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Owl ...

Danny Finklesiein (editor of the Times Group) and Andy Cooper (Director of Policy at No 10) are two outstanding examples of the "men behind the throne".

25 January 2013 at 13:46  
Blogger Albert said...

D Singh,

I think Cranmer himself expressed this clearly enough:

But if you really want to act in the national interest in order to have a hope of restoring national sovereignty and our ancient liberties, you will need to hold your nose in 2015 and vote Tory.

So there it is, if you want to act in the national interest, you must support a man who is denying the Creator, and, as today's papers show is prepared to put our brothers and sisters (teachers in this case) in a situation in which they may lose their jobs for defending marriage.

Surely, no Christian can support this man? Therefore, the referendum is a bribe. When Our Lord asked Saul why he was persecuting him, it would have been no good replying "I'm not persecuting you. I didn't actually throw any stones myself, I merely supported those who did."

There are more important things than national interest.

25 January 2013 at 13:47  
Blogger Albert said...

There was a time, Mr Singh, when Anglicans understood the language and consequences of "National Apostasy". Please God, such times are not ended.

25 January 2013 at 13:50  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Albert - Amen - "There are more important things than national interest"

David said, "Who is this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should defy the armies of the living God ? The LORD he will deliver me out of the hand of this Philistine." Then said David to the Philistine, "Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied. This day will the LORD deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel. And all this assembly shall know that the LORD saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the LORD's, and he will give you into our hands."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXei0Zb3dxM


The Harbinger - Rabbi Cahn, Full Version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXei0Zb3dxM

Please watch this Messianic Rabbi you will be mightily blessed (particularly from 38:50 mins to the end; although it is all worth listening to).

25 January 2013 at 13:51  
Blogger D. Singh said...

What we need is 'Pride's Purge' on this site.


Cameron's geese have been cornered by UKIP's fox.


He has been compelled to offer a 'glimmer of national salvation'.


Let us go down on our knees and lay siege to God's heart and plead that He will deliver us from the evil that is the EU.

25 January 2013 at 14:03  
Blogger Naomi King said...

From Conservative Home website ...

Today 2) Same-sex marriage bill to be published. "The most divisive vote of Cameron's leadership."

"The issue threatens to shatter the Tory unity that Mr Cameron engendered with his Europe speech this week. MPs have warned party whips that the issue of gay marriage is by far the most toxic for them among grassroots party members. The Times has spoken this week to MPs from all parts of the country, all of whom have reported that local association members are deserting the party over the issue. Opposition to gay marriage had dominated their postbags and was driving members to UKIP, the MPs said." - The Times (£)

http://conservativehome.blogs.com

25 January 2013 at 14:09  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Oh and this one is also from Conservative Home

No early poll bounce for Cameron's EU speech

Populus poll finds that Britons would vote to quit the EU. "The poll also shows that the Prime Minister’s landmark speech on Tuesday did little to improve his chances of an outright Tory victory at the next election in 2015" - The Times (£)

"The first YouGov poll since the Prime Minister's speech, the fieldwork for which was conducted between 5pm on Tuesday and 5pm yesterday, shows no sign of an early boost for the Tories. Instead, support for Labour has risen by two points to 43 per cent, while the Tories are unchanged on 31 per cent. We will, of course, need to wait until the weekend polls for a clear picture of what effect, if any, Cameron's speech has had on the Conservatives' standing." - The New Statesman

25 January 2013 at 14:19  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Albert

Will a minority of people voting UKIP prevent SSM?

No.

Will a minority of people voting UKIP extinguish that 'glimmer of national salvation'?

Yes.

25 January 2013 at 14:24  
Blogger Albert said...

Mr Singh,

On such grounds you wish to give support to such a man who has set his face against the creator? What will he learn if people vote for him? He will learn that, in the end, people don't worry about their religious freedoms, that provided he throws enough sweets to the children, they will support him anyway. And then it will be the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And eventually, you will have no freedom left, because you did not make him pay the price.

Your argument - in which you appeal to Cameron to save you from Europe, despite his paganism, reminds me of the Israelites appealing to Egypt instead of trusting in the Lord:

"Woe to the rebellious children," says the LORD,

"who carry out a plan, but not mine;
and who make a league, but not of my spirit,
that they may add sin to sin;
[2] who set out to go down to Egypt,
without asking for my counsel,
to take refuge in the protection of Pharaoh,
and to seek shelter in the shadow of Egypt!
[3] Therefore shall the protection of Pharaoh turn to your shame,
and the shelter in the shadow of Egypt to your humiliation.
[4] For though his officials are at Zo'an
and his envoys reach Ha'nes,
[5] every one comes to shame
through a people that cannot profit them,
that brings neither help nor profit,
but shame and disgrace."
[6] An oracle on the beasts of the Negeb.
Through a land of trouble and anguish,
from where come the lioness and the lion,
the viper and the flying serpent,
they carry their riches on the backs of asses,
and their treasures on the humps of camels,
to a people that cannot profit them.
[7] For Egypt's help is worthless and empty...
Therefore thus says the Holy One of Israel,
"Because you despise this word,
and trust in oppression and perverseness,
and rely on them;
[13] therefore this iniquity shall be to you
like a break in a high wall, bulging out, and about to collapse,
whose crash comes suddenly, in an instant;
[14] and its breaking is like that of a potter's vessel
which is smashed so ruthlessly
that among its fragments not a sherd is found
with which to take fire from the hearth,
or to dip up water out of the cistern."
[15] For thus said the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel,
"In returning and rest you shall be saved;
in quietness and in trust shall be your strength."
And you would not,
[16] but you said, "No! We will speed upon horses,"
therefore you shall speed away;
and, "We will ride upon swift steeds,"
therefore your pursuers shall be swift.


Are you not falling prey to what St Paul called "Doing evil that good may come of it"?

Why trust in Egypt, when you can trust in the Lord?

25 January 2013 at 14:33  
Blogger Albert said...

Cont. And having sold your soul, you will not get your referendum, because Mr Cameron will not win enough seats anyway. You will have simply underscored the liberal secular belief that while we Christians complain about their legislation, yet we will not withdraw our support and so they can do what they like.

25 January 2013 at 14:35  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Why would anyone presume that Rome would support the EC?
Was it not and RC from Malta that failed to get get selected for a senior EC post because of his religeous views?

25 January 2013 at 14:48  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Albert

What price will he pay: Conservatism (referendum) out and a national Socialist government in?

Which is the bigger threat: SSM or the EU?

I suggest the EU, it wanted Levenson recommendations implemented to control the press (and by implication the Internet).

A silenced people.

25 January 2013 at 14:56  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Albert

You might as well ask why Lincoln, despite being a racist, threw in slavery or why Churchill, hating Bolshevism, allied us to the Soviet Union.

25 January 2013 at 15:14  
Blogger Albert said...

Mr Singh,

Which is the bigger threat: SSM or the EU?

The EU has many faults, certainly, but this is what scripture says about homosexual acts:

Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.
Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural,and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct.


Surely, the EU and SSM are not on the same level? Marriage is (as the CofE puts it rather well) "a gift of God in creation". Marriage is more fundamental than which particular form of government is in control. In contrast, homosexual acts (according to scripture) reflect a culture that has turned its back on God and exchanged him for a lie. The reasoning behind marriage and against homosexual acts is fundamental to the very notion that we are created by God.

You might as well ask why Lincoln, despite being a racist, threw in slavery or why Churchill, hating Bolshevism, allied us to the Soviet Union.

I think that to suggest the EU is comparable with Bolshevism or slavery is plainly absurd. Besides, the issue here is not having an ally against a foe, but supporting someone in an election. Would you vote Nazi to oppose Communism or Communist to oppose Nazism? Surely, you would do neither! There are some things a Christian cannot support, regardless of the consequences. We are never in a position in which we must do evil. That was the point of my long quotation from Isaiah. Neither have you addressed my consequentialist argument: once people like Cameron realise we don't stand by our principles, you have no idea where he will stop.

25 January 2013 at 15:35  
Blogger Albert said...

Correction, in the first sentence of my final paragraph, I mean "Nazism" rather than "Bolshevism".

25 January 2013 at 15:41  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Albert

Forgive me but you introduced SSM and the EU at 13.18.

25 January 2013 at 15:44  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Albert

'Would you vote Nazi to oppose Communism or Communist to oppose Nazism?'

Bonhoffer and Solzhenitsyn have set fine examples.

25 January 2013 at 15:46  
Blogger Albert said...

Mr Singh,

Forgive me but you introduced SSM and the EU at 13.18.

You misunderstand my point. You are saying that you should support a PM who has attacked marriage, affronted God and placed your own Christian brothers and sisters in a position in which they may be prosecuted for the faith you hold, simply so you can get a referendum on the EU.

Bonhoffer and Solzhenitsyn have set fine examples.

Fine examples of what exactly? People who vote for the Nazis or the Communists?!

25 January 2013 at 16:04  
Blogger Naomi King said...

"once people like Cameron realise we don't stand by our principles, you have no idea where he will stop"

The only person the Devil is afraid of is one who is willing to lay down his life for his faith.

And they [the Believers] overcome and conquered him [Satan] by means of the blood of the Lamb and by the utterance of their testimony, for they [the Believers] did not love and cling to life even when faced with death, holding their lives cheap till they had to die for their witnessing.

25 January 2013 at 16:07  
Blogger Albert said...

The only person the Devil is afraid of is one who is willing to lay down his life for his faith.

Well said Naomi. And if we continue to support politicians who play fast and loose with religious freedom we may find out what that's like!

25 January 2013 at 16:24  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

The EU is not in any serious moral universe equivalent to Nazism, Bolshevism, Francoism, or any other totalitarian regime that has plagued the face of this earth.

It is increasingly corrupt, detached from electoral opinion (though the extent to which this is true varies markedly in different nations), and certainly elitist. As an entity it has been fairly mixed in its treatment of Christianity - but whatever its purported Roman origins it is difficult to advance the argument that the EU is particularly friendly to Christianity, either in terms of relations or philosophy. Plus ca change.

Vote as you are led. Personally, I no longer believe Cameron's word. So it's not a case of do I support him or not - it's a sincere failure to believe he will come through on his promise.

I would vote for another Conservative leader in whom I had confidence - or indeed, a Labour leader in whom I had confidence. Unfortunately, politicians lie. Not a little, but habitually and without shame. That goes for Osborne, it goes for Boris too, I'm afraid.

I'm not giving my vote to any MP who does so, or who stands by a leader who does so.

25 January 2013 at 16:25  
Blogger Jon said...

This thread went fast in a predictable direction.

25 January 2013 at 16:27  
Blogger Albert said...

This thread went fast in a predictable direction.

Quite so, Jon. Cameron's support for SSM has contributed to a sense that he is untrustworthy, dishonest and unlikely to win an election. All of which makes discussion about a referendum rather academic.

25 January 2013 at 16:40  
Blogger Albert said...

I should have added that Cameron isn't overly fussed over religious freedom.

25 January 2013 at 16:41  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Albert

'he must pay the price'.

It was the Roman philosopher Senaca who described vengeance as a category of madness.

25 January 2013 at 16:42  
Blogger Pcm979 said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

25 January 2013 at 17:01  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Mr Singh

If SSM is allowed that's another small step towards the realisation of the EU communist state agenda, and against God's will. It's affirming the further destruction of our society which will be all the harder to recover once we get out.

25 January 2013 at 17:13  
Blogger Albert said...

It was the Roman philosopher Senaca who described vengeance as a category of madness.

What's vengeance got to do with it? Cameron et al need to know the political price of riding rough-shod over freedom etc. But that's not about asking for vengeance, it's about not voting in such a way as makes one's belief extinct in the political future.

This is what's happened: the Tories have struggled to win elections. Their conclusion: they need to be less socially conservative and introduce things like SSM. If you support them now, then they will simply draw the conclusion that they can ignore socially conservative issues, provided they provide bread and circuses to keep us happy. To counter this, we need to vote against them, so that they realise that they cannot win elections without being socially conservative.

25 January 2013 at 17:16  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Politics is certainly changing. This initiative, if that is the word to use, from Cameron will set politics alight, not just for the next 4 years, but for some to come after that.

One actually feels EMPOWERED to do something about the malaise.

The question is who will lead the ‘out’ campaign. The campaign doesn’t need a leader. It is a spirit, an ideology, a longing, a want. You need a leader when rallying around for support for an arbitrary aim. To carry that aim through. An aim that is somewhat personal and dare it be said, selfish. But not coming out of the EU. Now that is a yearning. What you do need are hands to take the reins. Many hands because the force powering forward is so strong that no single man can do it himself. That is how it is going to be and there is nothing anyone can do to change it.

Accept this truth now, and let us have no more talk of leaders. But let us have plenty of talk of the guiders of this nation’s long suppressed spirit as it breaks its chains and runs free. We can WIN this - years before the vote takes place, and what’s more, it will eclipse the petty nationalism in these Isles. A petty nationalism that is the spawn of the very aforementioned malaise we have suffered for so many years.

The UK lives on, and to a better and brighter future, what !



25 January 2013 at 17:16  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Jon. We all know which way the Catholic Church will lean.

Well, it is known Benedict XVI is an enthusiastic Europhile, but as for leaning on the flock to vote ‘in’ - hardly. As far as the Inspector knows, the nearest the RCC in this country came anywhere near to political agitation at grass roots level was in the late 1960’s after the abortion outrage. But of course, they were already preaching to the converted in church, when it came to that issue.

Individual bishops have expressed their own opinions to the media on all sorts, but really can’t recall any letter sent to the parishes for reading out regarding a voting matter. Currently, there would be ‘church guidance’ on an issue like SSM, but not being a voting matter we can discard this.

No, can’t see the RCC interfering on whether we are in or out. It is not an ecumenical matter.





25 January 2013 at 17:17  
Blogger michael north said...


D Singh @14.56

SSM is a greater threat than the EU because it will overthrow the common sense of all human history and there will be no going back. There is always the possibility of escape from the EU, even if it takes a war: SSM will reconfigure society. If it is ever to be undone, it will be by a state unlike the one we live in; more like the theocracies arising in the Middle East.

25 January 2013 at 17:20  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Chaps, comforting news for us ‘get-outers’

As from next year, we are to be invaded by a race of parasites. 50000 Roma from Romania and Bulgaria, on top of the few already here. Loathed by the indigenous population over there, these people are going to pick us clean. That’s 50000 a year, EVERY year. If it ain’t tied down, it will disappear.

2 maybe 3 years ago, one extended family of this type turned up in Gloucester. Quite a sight to see 2 of them playing the accordion outside Sainsbury’s, shifting their eyes left to right in quick succession beneath their caps.

While they were here, they stole metal from 3 railway locomotives being stored in the rail yard. One so bad it had to be scrapped. 2 men jailed, with deportation afterwards.

That was ONE family. You ain’t seen nothing yet !

heh heh !


25 January 2013 at 17:26  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Marie 1797

I am implacably opposed to SSM.

25 January 2013 at 17:32  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Michael: "SSM will reconfigure society."

Hardly. Gay men and women will be able to marry people of the same sex. And there will be about 6000 a year of those ceremonies, I expect. That's about it, really. Life will go on pretty much as before and the sky will remain where it is today.

25 January 2013 at 17:51  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0. Been following Pink News lately ?

The subject came up about teachers who do not wish to teach the class about SSM. The overwhelming consensus was that they should do what they are paid to do, and teach the FACTS.

Now, among these facts is the fact that sodomy is a rather disgusting and filthy pastime, and an extremely easy way to contract, suffer from, and spread all kinds of unpleasant diseases including a death sentence.

One somehow doubts these FACTS are the ones the gay militants have in mind...



25 January 2013 at 17:59  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Albert

If SSM was in the next Conservative Party manifesto I would not vote for that party. It will not be and unless a serious political party proposes repealing the legislation, I cannot see it being an electoral issue.

Is it really supporting evil by voting Conservative in 2015, assuming Cameron remains as leader? Leaving Europe (and ditching the secular Human Right's legislation too) might just reinvigorate Christianity in this nation.

However, this hope might be in vain unless the Church of England gets its act together and provides clear, decisive leadership on this.

25 January 2013 at 18:01  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Not according to a senior source at the Department for Education admitting that the UK is not “in control” and that

LATEST: GOVERNMENT
ADMITS TEACHERS DO
FACE THREAT OF LOSING
THEIR JOBS

The Daily Telegraph carries a front-page report today saying that the Government is “powerless” to stop teachers getting sacked if they refuse to endorse same-sex marriage. It quotes a senior source at the Department for Education admitting that the UK is not “in control” and that European judges have the final say.

C4M told you that teachers were under threat, now we know the Government thinks so too – albeit privately. It’s appalling that they haven’t been more upfront about this. It just shows that C4M have been absolutely right to point out the widespread impact of this unpopular and divisive policy.

Today, C4M are publishing a report on same-sex marriage storybooks being promoted in primary schools.

Download their report here http://c4m.org.uk/downloads/schools.pdf

The legal and political pressure to use these books and worse in classrooms will be all the greater if marriage gets redefined. Culture wars about the meaning of marriage shouldn’t be dragged into schools by extreme local authorities, and woe betide any teacher who objects.

The Bill to redefine marriage was published today and MPs will vote on it for the first time on Tuesday 5 February. The media is continuing to report significant opposition to the Bill among MPs.

There is still all to play for.

25 January 2013 at 18:02  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Cameron's troubles are really starting to close in now.

Labour refers David Cameron to statistics watchdog over national debt lie.

A Party political broadcast by David Cameron claiming that his government was bringing down debt was not a slip of the tongue. Labour has referred David Cameron to the statistics watchdog after he used this party political broadcast to claim the government was bringing down the national debt, which it is not.

The shadow chief secretary, Rachel Reeves, wrote to Andrew Dilnot, chair of the UK Statistics Authority, after the prime minister claimed the government was "paying down Britain's debts".

A succession of ministers have lied by failing to distinguish between government debt and the annual deficit.

Reeves claimed Cameron's remarks were not a slip of a tongue since it was made on a scripted broadcast.

She wrote to Dilnot: "This suggests that the Conservative party deliberately misled the public about these statistics and the government's record."

25 January 2013 at 18:16  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Dash it all chaps and chapesses,

I love our country with a passion that a out of his depth toadying flea like Cameron cannot understand; every Brick, street, Church and Synagogue our of Islands is worth fighting to the death for.

Our loyalty is to the Queen and country, whether we are Christian, Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Sikh or atheist; queer or not!

Remember we are British, yet we seem to cower on all fours when it comes to the EU... yet we are the nation who gave the world her premier language, the culture of Shakespeare, Burns, Dylan Thomas and Yeats...

The nation, who for a thousand years kept the despots at bay- Philip II's Spanish Armada, the Ancien Régime of France, the Bloodthirsty swines of Robespierre's Revolutionary maniacs ; Napoleon's Grand Army, The Kaiser's attempted conquest of Europe, the evil of Hitler's Fascist hordes, the Socialist Stalinists of the cold war and now the war on terror...

Yet we cower on all fours, to beg to leave the EU? We need no such thing, if Cameron had the steadfastness of Churchill, the wit of Disraeli, the political skill of the Pitt's and the pragmatism of Palmerston then we would be able to tell the EU to go hang and reclaim our democracy and freedom.

25 January 2013 at 18:19  
Blogger Albert said...

Dodo,

Is it really supporting evil by voting Conservative in 2015, assuming Cameron remains as leader?

I think it is, and worse than that, it promotes evil. What do politicians fear? They fear the electorate. If we Christians vote Tory regardless of what they do, they will ignore us. If we desert them they will reign in their dafter policies.

Now: there is no loss from not supporting Cameron at the next election. He will not win the election anyway - as we move into a triple recession, it is evident the economy will see to him. Even if he is PM after 2015 he will not have a proper majority to pass the legislation, then there will be endless excuses for why he cannot keep him promise. This is a man who promised to give married couples a tax-cut. He gave us SSM instead. So you have nothing to lose by voting against him. You have everything to lose by voting for him. Don't be taken in.

25 January 2013 at 18:21  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Mr North

The sociological consequences of SSM take a generation to emerge, as the Scandanavian studies show.

SSM is implicitly welcomed by the ECrt of Human Rts by the Ladele case.

The preamble to the Lisbon Treaty imports the case law of the ECrt of Human Rts.

No state can tolerate two supreme courts - the EU's Court of Justice and the ECrt of Human Rts.

Kill EU and the ECrt of Human Rts will be a piece of cake.

25 January 2013 at 18:25  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Lord Lavendon and Albert

You are both right. In effect, British Christians are disenfranchised unless we can be mobilised around a Party that removes the secular hegemony and takes us out of Europe. I doubt it is UKIP and I would never vote for them.

Is it time for a mass revolt within the Conservative Party and a realigning of political allegiances?

25 January 2013 at 18:32  
Blogger Naomi King said...


For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed. The people shall be as the fuel of the fire.

25 January 2013 at 18:36  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Atrchbishop Cranmer

His motto for success might have been that of the Alabama State American Football Team

You have committed a grevious error. You have displayed a picture of a player from the University of Alabama and suggested he plays for Alabama State University. If this error becomes known in the wrong cricles, hordes of angry Crimson Tide fans will descend upon your website with virtual torches and pitchforks. In addition, you have curiously misplaced and misued the adjective 'American.' Since the University of Alabama is obviously in the United States, there is no reason to further qualify the location of the University with the addition of 'American.' The corrected sentence should read:

His motto for success might have been that of the University of Alabama Football Team ...

I trust you will attend to these corrections at your earliest opportunity.

carl

25 January 2013 at 18:40  
Blogger Albert said...

Mr Singh,

SSM is implicitly welcomed by the ECrt of Human Rts by the Ladele case.

No. The reality is, if anything, the oppostite. SSM was explicitly rejected by the ECHR. What they have made clear is that, once you have such things it must by imposed on conscientious objectors such as our Christian brothers and sisters, even if they have to lose their jobs.

25 January 2013 at 18:41  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

"Oh, I'm a good old Briton,
Now thats just what I am,
And for this EU Federalism,
I do no give a damn.
I'm glad I vote a ganner,
I only wish we won.
I aint asked any pardon for being British.

I hates the EU and eveything they do.
I hates the Treaty of Lisbon too.
I hates the glorious European union, t'is dripping with Communism
I hates the EU flag, and fitted all I could

I can't pick up my musket
And fight 'um down no more
But I ain't gonna love 'um
Now that is certain sure
And I don't want no pardon
For what I was and am
I won't be Secularised
And I do not give a damn

Oh, I'm a good old Briton,
Now thats just what I am,
And for this European Union,
I do no give a damn.
I'm glad I fought a ganner,
I only wish we won.
I aint asked any pardon for being British.
I aint asked any pardon for
Being British"

25 January 2013 at 18:42  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

25 January 2013 at 19:04  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "The subject came up about teachers who do not wish to teach the class about SSM. The overwhelming consensus was that they should do what they are paid to do, and teach the FACTS."

Sounds fair enough to me. Teachers should teach comparative religion too, despite some or all of the sets of beliefs being a mutually exclusive load of bollocks.

"One somehow doubts these FACTS are the ones the gay militants have in mind..."

I'm guessing that they expect teachers to teach that some people are attracted to people of the same sex and that they can form committed relationships legally bound by marriage if they wish in a similar way to other people. Sounds fair enough to me. Nothing shocking there, really. To most normal people anyway.

25 January 2013 at 19:07  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mr Carl Jacobs,

His Grace thanks you for your comments. However, he urges you to take up the matter directly with Brother Ivo (really, truly, this is article not penned by His Grace, so all errors and omissions.. blah, blah..).

25 January 2013 at 19:12  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

DanJ0
Nothing shocking?! It's when one gets into the detail of the sex act it becomes shocking for children. Wouldn't you agree?

Recently you confessed to being repelled by watching heterosexual scenes on television. Imagine a child being exposed to the unnatural details of homosexual genital activity and the risks associated with this behaviour.

I recall as an 'innocent' child finding it difficult to comprehend normal sexual behaviour. But between men and men? Way, way too much information! And yet this will be legally expected of teachers - and parents will be required to go along with it.

25 January 2013 at 19:18  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "Recently you confessed to being repelled by watching heterosexual scenes on television"

Confessed? I don't recall that. Was it dragged out of me or something? I'm normally pretty open about stuff. Surely I simply said that I have to turn over when heterosexual sex scenes appear in films on TV? I find them rather icky, as it goes.

25 January 2013 at 19:29  
Blogger michael north said...


D.Singh @ 18.25

What you write about the sociological effects of SSM taking a generation to become clear answers Dan Jo. Of course the sky will not fall, but the new "right" will be taken for granted and it will only be revoked by a state with contempt for all rights, real or spurious.

25 January 2013 at 20:15  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0. One must back up the bird on what he posts.

If the truth be known, and it be free to be broadcast, the facts are that homosexuality is a disability. How can it be otherwise. We all want to see cripples compete on a level playing field, so what happens, they have their own games specially for them.

The Inspector is sympathetic to young gays, who most importantly, are sure they are that way inclined, making their way in the world, but it is disingenuous to suggest they come in at ‘normal’. They are obviously not, they are disabled, and must come to terms with their disability...

25 January 2013 at 20:28  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

DanJ0

Okay but now answer the substantial point. If natural sex on television makes you feel "rather icky" what feelings do you think discussing unnatural sex, with all the *advice* accompanying it, will evoke in children?

25 January 2013 at 20:29  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "If the truth be known, and it be free to be broadcast, the facts are that homosexuality is a disability."

That's a social model of disability to suit your homophobia, of course.

25 January 2013 at 20:33  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Really DanJ0, is that extent of your comeback ?

We have already discussed and ascertained beyond doubt that today ‘homophobia’ means not pandering to every whim the gay community comes up with.

Of course homosexuality is a disability. Take Elton John. He wanted a family, which he has apparently managed to achieve of sorts, using nefarious methods. Rather wonderful being a multi millionaire, don’t you think. The police don’t come knocking on your door with suspicions of child abuse. The man himself admitted it was going to be tough on his first child (...assuming it is HIS child, and not that of the bugger he lives with...) for not having a mother.

How damn selfish can you get !!!

Therefore, the house accepts that homosexuality is a disability...

25 January 2013 at 20:44  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Michael: "What you write about the sociological effects of SSM taking a generation to become clear answers Dan Jo."

Hardly. If the report is the one I think it is then it also says this:

"During the last decades family patterns of many countries have become more diverse. Although small in numbers and far from being accepted in most countries, legalization of same-sex marriages fits neatly into this development. The increasing diversity is often regarded as part of a larger cultural change, implying an increase in freedom as well as an obligation for individuals to decide how to organize their lives in an individualized society (Beck and Beck-Gemsheim 1995).

"Another factor that might have paved the way for same-sex marriages is the increasing separation between reproduction and sexuality, in favour of a more plastic sexuality in the terminology of Giddens (1992). Sexuality has naturally always been separated from reproduction in homosexual relations, and this separation is becoming increasingly dominant also in heterosexual relationships."

If religionists want to complain about stuff then contraception, sex outside of marriage, co-habitation, and divorce ought to be at the top of their list, along with freedom, individualism, and libertarianism. But that's unlikely to be palatable to religionists because it would make religious ideology even more unpopular with the general public than it is at the moment. Revoking those rights now would probably require a Talebanised State too. Better to try to bash a few queers instead to try to assert their religiosity because some people inevitably find the sexual details a bit icky.

25 January 2013 at 20:54  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "Really DanJ0, is that extent of your comeback ?"

It's all it deserves, really.

25 January 2013 at 20:55  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Good lad. You know it makes sense...

25 January 2013 at 21:11  
Blogger Brother Ivo said...

I-Democracy appears to be alive and well on this site.

25 January 2013 at 21:13  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I understand your extreme homophobia, you know, Inspector. I was actually homophobic when I was younger before I became what we call "sorted". It sounds a bit counter-intuitive that a homosexual would be homophobic but it's sometimes part of the repression to over-compensate.

25 January 2013 at 21:17  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Brother Ivor

You have an irate American to attend to. He's complaining about your knowledge of their *football* teams.

Not an auspicious start!

25 January 2013 at 21:19  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

DanJ0

No answer, eh?

This is your answer .... seriously?

" ... some people inevitably find the sexual details a bit icky."

No; you find natural sex a "bit icky". Most people find homosexual genital activity unacceptable and really don't want the detail shared with children. Do you understand this?

25 January 2013 at 21:25  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Brother. A bit more about you, if you will. Of an Anglican community no doubt...


25 January 2013 at 21:25  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Ivo, sorry I got your name wrong.

25 January 2013 at 21:27  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "No answer, eh?"

Lack of interest, actually. I expect it's merely a precursor from you anyway. I'll leave you to talk about an EU referendum, or something, instead.

25 January 2013 at 21:31  
Blogger David B said...

I'm not on twitter, but I just saw here that HG also saw the news that the RC church applies moral relativism to the status of foetuses. IIRC it was concerning a foetus far more developed than any decent pro-choice person would regard as a bundle of cells. 7 months, wasn't it?

More and more coming out about the covering up of sexual abuse, too, as various courts around the world get the RCC kicking and screaming to hand over it's paperwork.

I know there are many decent catholics, some of them posting on this blog, but really that decent people can defend such an institution seems to me evidence of how religion can and does warp moral compasses.

They defend the indefensible.

Nearly forgot about the recent news that the RCC holds a vast fortune as a result of a deal woth Mussolini - that is to say cash essentially stolen from the Italian people.

David B

25 January 2013 at 21:32  
Blogger Brother Ivo said...

Reprove me with kindness!

The exhortation is plainly from the Crimson Tide whose supporters will perhaps be glad that their heroes are known on this side of the Atlantic where we need to differentiate Football and American Football.

25 January 2013 at 21:34  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mrs King @ 18.16 said, 'Cameron's troubles are really starting to close in now.

Labour refers David Cameron to statistics watchdog over national debt lie.'

Now this is a highly significant development.

Note that Cameron made his statement outside the Parliament, and thus was not under the Parliamentary obligation to tell the truth.

The Labour Party should demand that Cameron repeat his debt statement in full within a sitting of the Parliament. He will not of course, for fear of being in breach. However, it is important that Cameron humiliate himself by failing to reiterate. Currently Cameron seems to be enjoying something of a 'sugar-hit' with his back-bench following the referendum conditional promise. A campaign is required to discredit Cameron quickly before he can build on this misplaced confidence.

Brother Ivo, welcome and thank you for your post. In general one needs to develop a multi-layered attack on a number of fronts when persuing these matters. You seem to be heading in the right direction. In the view of this communicant, an important short term goal is to create sufficient pressure to overturn Cameron's preferred timetable for a referendum.

An atmosphere of perpetual crisis is required to demoralise and discredit Dave and the comment above to Mrs King points the way.

25 January 2013 at 21:51  
Blogger Naomi King said...

For they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness. The people turneth not, for wickedness burneth as the fire, neither do they seek the LORD of hosts. For every one is an hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly. Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened. Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write grievousness which they have prescribed; and what will ye do in the day of visitation, and in the desolation which shall come ? To whom will ye flee for help? Behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, shall lop the bough with terror: and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled.

For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying, neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid. Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he shall be for a sanctuary. Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples and wait upon the LORD, and look for him. When the Lord hath performed his whole work his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.

25 January 2013 at 21:52  
Blogger Naomi King said...

For they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness. The people turneth not, for wickedness burneth as the fire, neither do they seek the LORD of hosts. For every one is an hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly. Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened. Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write grievousness which they have prescribed; and what will ye do in the day of visitation, and in the desolation which shall come ? To whom will ye flee for help? Behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, shall lop the bough with terror: and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled.

For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying, neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid. Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he shall be for a sanctuary. Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples and wait upon the LORD, and look for him. When the Lord hath performed his whole work his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.

25 January 2013 at 21:52  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Dodo @ 21.19, the name is not Brother Ivor but Ivo.

Named possibly after the great Victorian Test Captain, Ivo Bligh.

25 January 2013 at 21:54  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Sorry about the double post, a mistake.

25 January 2013 at 21:55  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

bluedog said ...

"Mr Dodo @ 21.19, the name is not Brother Ivor but Ivo.

Named possibly after the great Victorian Test Captain, Ivo Bligh."


Yes, thank you. I spotted my error and apologised. He could be named after the great Medieval Saint Ivo. A wonderful example to us all.

25 January 2013 at 22:02  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

DanJ0

No answer you mean. Carry on provoking the good Inspector instead of addressing the concern of parents about what their children might be exposed to for the sake of appeasing 1.5% of the population.

25 January 2013 at 22:04  
Blogger Brother Ivo said...

Surely it is insensitive to speak of ashes on this site?

25 January 2013 at 22:07  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Bro Ivo,
It's the American who complained and he's not known for kindness.

25 January 2013 at 22:07  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

"When Ivo goes back with the urn, the urn;
Studds, Steel, Read and Tylecote return, return;
The welkin will ring loud,
The great crowd will feel proud,
Seeing Barlow and Bates with the urn, the urn;
And the rest coming home with the urn."

25 January 2013 at 22:11  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Dodo

If you remember Danjo said he expects about 6,000 homosexual so called "marriages" to go through every year ! That would be in line with civil partnerships which run at about 6,000 a year. This is such a insignificant number of individuals in the context of 70 million people on these shore to be entirely statistically irrelevant.

This is what David Cameron is sacrificing this Nation and his own Party for.

25 January 2013 at 22:11  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Ps
We don't do sensitivity on here!

25 January 2013 at 22:13  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Naomi
It's pure wickedness and a manifestation of the depth of decline in this once great nation. Cameron is the 'Judas' of the Conservative Party.

25 January 2013 at 22:16  
Blogger Brother Ivo said...

A sinner in need of Redemption like all his brothers and sisters.

25 January 2013 at 22:17  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

David B. at 21:32. You must think we followers of Cranmer are arses. Rarely has the Inspector seen a more outlandish attempt to steer a thread away from it’s origin. Shame on you, you liberal atheist whatever...

25 January 2013 at 22:18  
Blogger David B said...

Naomi and Dodo

If it is so insignificant why make such a fuss about it?

I take the view that justice and fairness are for everyone, however small the minority.

David

25 January 2013 at 22:20  
Blogger Berserker said...

To get back to the thread!!

Maybe the 'Outers' should look to other protest movements.

In 1848 the good citizens of Lombardy stopped smoking and playing the lottery so denying the Austrians revenue. So this minor act, along with more militant Sicily started the whole swathe of Euro 1848 revolutions. From small beginnings...

Like the Suffragettes. They started so decorously with the rational Millicdent Fawcett who believed in logical arguments and who had the support of the about to be formed Labour Party. It got nowhere apart from registering the arguments which I am sure inspired future generations of women and men.

Then came the Pankhursts with their decorous start to the campaign but luckily when they interrupted a political meeting of Liberal politicians one of which was Winston Churchill and asked them if they believed women should have the vote and when the politcians declined to reply got out their banner "Votes for Women' and shouted at the politicians. They were chucked out and arrested and so the violent movement started. The arrest was everything!


I would not advocate the 'Outers' burning churches and destroying Oxford Street shops (that would incense the shopholics, or burn down Cameron's Home Sweet Home but placards, loud hailers and constant pressure on the pro Europe media to give them air time. Keep these points constantly in front of the public:

• Less Integration does not mean more Discrimination
• Getting Out means we save £32 million a day
• Getting Out means getting away from unemployed Spain, uncompetitive France, the Belgium joke of concord, subsidising Roumanian gypsies. and poor old Greece that is corrupt and many pay no taxes, and Italy a wonderful land that is kept together by EU funds and hard working Northern Italians and where the Mafia cream off everything
• Getting Out means better and easier trade with the rest of the world

25 January 2013 at 22:46  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Hear hear, that berserk bloke.


25 January 2013 at 23:07  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Albert said ...
"That Dr Cranmer is reproducing such untruths which are damaging to the case for protecting innocent human life, is astonishing. Perhaps it's worth it to trash the Church, though."

Actually, it was a plain attack on the Church. And it seems critiquing him is *bigotry*. Damaging the Catholic Church's position on abortion is an attack on all Christians who valus human life.

Brother Ivo said ... (about another person)
"A sinner in need of Redemption like all his brothers and sisters."

Yep ... we're all sinners and we all say and do things we regret. No regret, no repentance and no forgiveness. It seems Judas was overwhelmed with guilt to the point of despair.

25 January 2013 at 23:16  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Soviet theory places treatise above custom as a source of International Law how ought our Constitutional Monarchy approach the issue, assuming this is an issue

25 January 2013 at 23:18  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Naomi: "This is such a insignificant number of individuals in the context of 70 million people on these shore to be entirely statistically irrelevant."

There are about 8500 Roman Catholic religious marriages in the UK every year yet we allow their priests to legally marry people. Perhaps we should make them marry in a register office, their being such a statistically irrelevant number of them? There are about a million of them who attend mass every week too, which is in the same ballpark as one of the estimates of number of homosexuals in the UK. Perhaps we should do what we like to them, being as they're a minority, if minorities somehow don't deserve justice like the rest of us in the hands of some other religionists? Perhaps they should keep their heads down to avoid trouble, and keep to the back streets so as not to bother the rest of us, and keep their unnatural practices out of sight of normal people? Etc. Etc.

25 January 2013 at 23:19  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Of course, that's been done before but, well, the oppressed often become the oppressors, it's said.

25 January 2013 at 23:23  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

DanJo

Yes but Catholics do not have the *right* to go into every school and teach every child about their world view.

On the other hand, a small minority of homosexuals want the *right* to redefine marriage, normalise homosexual sex and, as sure as night follows day, instruct children in the *joys* of their unnatural practices.

25 January 2013 at 23:26  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Ps

Do stop being so *dramatic*. Homosexuality is not criminal. Do you really think *marriage* and teaching homosexual sex to children will win popular support?

25 January 2013 at 23:29  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Naomi: "This is what David Cameron is sacrificing this Nation and his own Party for."

Do stop being so *dramatic*.

25 January 2013 at 23:33  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Brother Ivo

The exhortation is plainly from the Crimson Tide whose supporters will perhaps be glad that their heroes are known on this side of the Atlantic ...

GASP! Never. NEVER would I root for Alabama. I would root for Navy first.

...where we need to differentiate Football and American Football.

Ah, but the means are already available with the proper English words 'Football' and 'Soccer.'

Dodo

It's the American who complained and he's not known for kindness.

Well. Gosh. Thanks for that. And it wasn't a complaint. It was a correction.

carl

25 January 2013 at 23:37  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

His Grace allows plenty drivel but ignores the issues

25 January 2013 at 23:38  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0. Liberate yourself son, and accept the new enlightenment. Homosexuality IS a disability, and in the same way we don’t demolish all steps because they might otherwise offend the wheelchair bound, then neither should we queer marriage so a handful of gay types can ‘upgrade’ their civil partnership to pretend happy families marriage...

Tally ho, old fruit !

26 January 2013 at 00:25  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Communism by stealth via the breakdown of the family, and all things that make a society strong and thriving. Equality and diversity is nothing more than part of the grinding down of our values and culture. The dream of a controlled three state world of which the EU being one United State
Homosexuals are nothing but a pawn in the bigger picture. You're being used to help create totalitarian world government.

26 January 2013 at 01:24  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Albert

Overall, I have found your arguments persuasive, and I think you have carried the field against your adversaries. Certainly you are correct that the offer of a vote on the EU is a mirage that will never be realized. It's not dissimilar to the large financial returns promised by the confidence man who runs a pyramid scheme. However, there was one point I wanted to contest.

You are within the providence of God offered a specific choice for leadership. It may be that none of the available choices present a clear-cut option for a consistent Christian. Even so, it is your responsibility as a citizen to vote given only the condition that the parties are democratically responsible. You make the best choice as you are led, and trust God for the outcome.

carl

26 January 2013 at 02:57  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "Liberate yourself son, and accept the new enlightenment."

You're reminiscent of the Iraqi Information Minister broadcasting on TV that there were no American forces in Baghdad ... as Baghdad international airport was overrun, his studio was shaking as shells exploded a few hundred metres away, and American tanks were practically rolling past his window.

26 January 2013 at 07:28  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Just so Marie1798 ...

"Communism by stealth via the breakdown of the family, and all things that make a society strong and thriving. Equality and diversity is nothing more than part of the grinding down of our values and culture."

Equality, diversity, political correctness, health and safety etc, etc, are all a lie, they are mental vehicles to prevent freedom of thought.

Homosexuality is a vile perversion adopted by those who turn away from God and his laws of righteousness, justice and obedience. It comes of a defiant spirit. Romans 1 tells all, helpfully quoted above. When homosexual acts were decriminalised a few years ago it was not that anybody liked the idea they just felt sorry for those trapped in its sin and lusts and they didn't want to send them to prison.

This movement to sanctify this base practice, lead by our Prime Minister, has quite a different motive. It is to corrupt our children and convert them to dis-functional lifestyles and to make them available for predatory homosexual males.

Here is what a child and young persons sports coach who is homosexual says about his life ...

A University lecturer, gave a public address during the LGBT History Month, held every February in schools, at Bournemouth University last year entitled, “Open Lecture: “Changing the Game - Gay Athletes then and now”.

The talk was given by a “homosexual” professor, Dr Eric Anderson from Winchester University, who came to tell around 70 sports students why gay sex is better than straight sex.

“Professor Eric Gumby Anderson stated in an earlier taped interview, reported in the “Oxford Student” magazine entitled, “Lecturer or Lecherer at LGBT Talk", “My intention is to offend you. Dr Anderson said the talk was intended to “empower people….to cast off conservative ‘Oxfordian’ beliefs”.

Anderson, a sociologist in the department of sports studies at the University of Winchester, came out of the ‘closet’ in 1993 as America’s first openly gay high school coach.

When it was suggested that Anderson is a sexual “predator”, he said “yeah” and laughed. Anderson claimed to have had had sex with “easily over a thousand people”. He said: “I like sex with 16, 17, 18 year old boys particularly, it’s getting harder for me to get them now I am older but I’m still finding them….I hope between the age of 43 and the time I die I can have sex with another thousand, that would be awesome, even if I have to buy them, of course, not a problem, you pay for all kinds of entertainment and pleasure.”

When asked whether he thought he had taken emotional or physical advantage of some of the thousand people he had sex with, Anderson replied that he thought that team sports were “more damaging” to adolescents than sex. He went on to claim: “The damage that’s caused by child molestation is socially constructed by the western world;” he contrasted this to other cultures where children engage in sexual activity with adults as a rite of passage.

He said that he and his boyfriend like to travel on cruise ships because “it’s like sex tourism, which is just amazing” and “I always screw the dancers”. He went on to say “we stop at a different port every night, go to a gay club every night and have sex with people….you don’t need to know their names”.

During the two-hour lecture at Bournemouth University, topics covered ranged from anal sex, bestiality and incest to religion.

In a society that sees children as an accessory and a commodity their voice is the last to be heard, as we are seeing with the Jimmy Savile case and many more like it, due to be exposed.

26 January 2013 at 07:30  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Naomi: "Equality, diversity, political correctness, health and safety etc, etc, are all a lie, they are mental vehicles to prevent freedom of thought."

You make them sound like religion.

26 January 2013 at 07:56  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Well yes they are really. Atheism is a religion of sorts, the Denial of the Living God.

26 January 2013 at 08:17  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Equality, diversity, political correctness, health and safety etc aren't tenets of atheism.

26 January 2013 at 08:24  
Blogger len said...

People are pointing to'the fruit' of the problems in our Society but not to 'the root' of the problems in our Society.

'The Church' has failed in the purposes of God .This is a plain fact.'The Church' has allowed unscrupulous men to gain control of the Church and to pursue their own agendas and has twisted and corrupted scripture to meet their own ends.This corruption has led to the plan of God evolving into (without his consent 'Christendom'a 'Christ- less' religion
There are those in these last days following a' form of religion'that is without power because it is a man made man orientated religion without power and the secular World see this religion (quite rightly)as hypocritical, loveless, and at most times irrelevant.
We need to return to Christ if we are to save a dying World.
For a more comprehensive explanation of the problems religion is going through see .....

www.lightforthelastdays.co.uk/docs/...religion/in_the_last_days.html

26 January 2013 at 08:53  
Blogger Naomi King said...

I believe they are and hence the huge disquiet with the EU and its secular approach. The choice is very stark either Worldly and Damnation, or Righteous and Salvation as these chapters from Isaiah 8, 9 and 10 declare.

Worldly and Damnation - For they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness. The people turneth not, for wickedness burneth as the fire, neither do they seek the LORD of hosts. For every one is an hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly. Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened. Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write grievousness which they have prescribed; and what will ye do in the day of visitation, and in the desolation which shall come ? To whom will ye flee for help? Behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, shall lop the bough with terror: and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled.

Righteous and Salvation - For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying, neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid. Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he shall be for a sanctuary. Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples and wait upon the LORD, and look for him. When the Lord hath performed his whole work his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.

That is your choice Danjo, the same choice that we each have to make. I personally believe that the homosexual lifestyle does not bring happiness and contentment and I certainly do not believe we should be promoting it to our children.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ornkc0cFrms

26 January 2013 at 08:58  
Blogger Albert said...

Thank you for your kind comment, Carl. I agree with your second paragraph, but think - unless I am missing something, that it rather confirms my position that it is wrong to vote for Mr Cameron.

26 January 2013 at 09:13  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Naomi: "That is your choice Danjo, the same choice that we each have to make."

Like you, I have lots of choices to make. Do we believe in the Roman Catholic god, or the Christian god, or YHWH, or Zeus, or Allah, or Vishnu, or any other of the thousands. Or, of course, just get on with life on the basis that if there is a god then it probably isn't the kind of theistic one limited by our own imaginations.

"I personally believe that the homosexual lifestyle does not bring happiness and contentment and I certainly do not believe we should be promoting it to our children."

Well, it doesn't when malicious or misguided religionists try to overlay their own religious strictures onto a diverse and free society in order to mold it according to their own totalitarian views.

Also, I think we should be promoting tolerance and acceptance of diverse lifestyles, including homosexual ones and religious ones, in society rather than promoting homosexual or religious lifestyles themselves.

What's the point of 'promoting' homosexual lifestyles for heterosexual people? For sure, everyone might choose more tasteful soft furnishings afterwards but it's hardly going to convince your average straight man to have bum sex [1] with his best mate, is it?

[1] Because that's what all gay men want and do, right?

26 January 2013 at 09:14  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Naomi: "I believe they are and hence the huge disquiet with the EU and its secular approach."

Take 'health and safety'. Away from the pages of the Daily Mail, the main purpose of 'health and safety' is promote a safe working environment for employees. On (say) the railways or the building site, it clearly saves lives and helps avoid injuries. For the well-travelled, it's obvious how useful it is in the UK when one sees some of the working practices in places like India.

26 January 2013 at 09:21  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Danjo

I guess you have intentionally avoided the main thrust of my post at 7.30. Children, our children, not your children because I guess you don't have any, are at risk from male homosexual predators and it has always been thus. Society normalising and now potentially sanctifying homosexuality under the "Holy Covenant of Matrimony" puts all our children in grave danger in school where the parents have no say in what they are taught or how it is taught.

26 January 2013 at 09:33  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Naomi: "Children, our children, not your children because I guess you don't have any, are at risk from male homosexual predators and it has always been thus."

You seem to be mistaking the word "homosexual" with "paedophile", luv. Very different things. I know that first hand as I'm a homosexual but I have no sexual interest in children. Children are at risk from predatory paedophiles of all types, including those who can't really be described as homosexual or heterosexual. The risk to children is relatively small but important to manage nevertheless. I'm not sure that pretending homosexuality doesn't exist, or is somehow immoral, is a great way of preparing children for life in the real world or for the helping them, especially the girls, to avoid people like Jimmy Savile KCSG.

26 January 2013 at 09:44  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Friends

Call me Dave's got problems - three papers are against him today, The Sun, the Telegraph and the Express

The Sun

Now Cam’s Mum blasts him over gay marriages

'David just won't be told,' she tells pals

DAVID Cameron has come under attack from two fronts over gay marriage — his party and his MUM.
Pressed on the issue by concerned pals, Mary Cameron, 78, was overheard saying: “I know, but David just won’t be told.” The remark by widowed Mrs Cameron — a retired magistrate — emerged as the Coalition’s controversial Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill was published in Parliament
yesterday. The PM’s dad Ian was heavily involved with parish and church councils before his death aged 77 in 2010. Tory Peter Bone said it was wrong to “rush through” gay marriage because it was not in any party political manifesto. He demanded: “What about a referendum? Does that seem fair?”

Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/4764174/Now-David-Camerons-mum-blasts-him-over-gay-marriages.html#ixzz2J4fJCRAa

The Daily Telegraph


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9827638/David-Camerons-wife-Samantha-is-the-driving-force-behind-gay-marriage.html

David Cameron's wife Samantha is the 'driving force’ behind gay marriage. Cabinet minister claims that David Cameron's wife, Samantha, is behind the gay marriage policy.

A cabinet minister points to Samantha Cameron’s influence on her husband. “Samantha is the driving force behind the policy,” claims the minister.
The baronet’s daughter, who is a creative consultant at Smythson, the Mayfair luxury goods firm, is known to have socially liberal views. Ed Vaizey, a Notting Hill friend of the Camerons who is now a culture minister, claimed that Samantha “might have voted Labour” in the past. Vaizey, who has been a friend of the PM since their Oxford University days, said: “She would be going into this general election poll thinking, 'Is Cameron the real deal or should I stick with [Gordon] Brown?’ ’’

The Daily Express

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/373413

TORY MPS' FURY AT 'BID TO GAG' GAY MARRIAGE REBELS

OUTRAGED Tory MPs last night accused ministers of attempting to stifle debate over plans to legalise gay ­marriage.

MPs will get a free vote on the issue, they were promised yesterday. But Westminster sources indicated details of the Bill to introduce same-sex weddings will not be debated first in the usual full sitting of the Commons.

Instead the Bill will go straight to a committee of MPs. With up to 100 Tory members expected to rebel on the issue in the Second Reading on February 5, opponents claimed the move was an attempt to hide the bitter rift within the Conservatives.

Tory MP David Burrowes, a leading opponent of the Bill, said: “Redefining marriage is a hugely significant step that should be subject to a full debate in Parliament.

“This is a very divisive issue, both in the country and in the Conservative Party.”

Fellow Tory MP Stewart Jackson said: “The Government is terrified of the debate. This is going to be rushed through and MPs are going to be railroaded into supporting the Government’s timetable.

"Mr Cameron's Government should put a proposal in a manifesto and then come back with it with a mandate after it has been put to the electorate.”

26 January 2013 at 10:17  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

DanJ0

You present the 'nature of the beast' so well.

The secular, amoral sneering at values held by ordinary folk who may or may not have a solid belief in God. Yet they know He exists and expects certain things from us. The use of clever words and the presentation of *reasonable* concepts like 'equality', diversity' and 'human rights', to advance your cause step by step. And, when all fails, the attempt to manipulate people by use of personal attacks and accusations of 'bigot', 'in denial' and 'totalitarian'.

26 January 2013 at 13:35  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Thank you Dodo, well put.

26 January 2013 at 13:41  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo, you try and try and try and try and try and try and try and try and try and try and try ... yet the blog still continues despite your best efforts. You have tenacity though, I'll give you that.

It's a pity you're so dishonest and malevolent, with no integrity or discernable morals, so you have no high ground at all to stand on. It just makes you look like a berk.

26 January 2013 at 13:48  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "And, when all fails [...]"

Only it doesn't fail at all. That's one reason why you try to cause trouble with me all the time, you know that people like Naomi get pwned each time when they trot out their homophobia. You have to cluster in little packs to stop the weak getting savaged.

26 January 2013 at 13:53  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Albert

unless I am missing something, that it rather confirms my position that it is wrong to vote for Mr Cameron.

I think my concern is with the use of the word 'wrong.' I would employ the word 'unwise.' And I would qualify it with 'given the political context.' If it is wrong to vote for David Cameron, then it is wrong to vote for David Cameron in any context. But I don't think that proposition can be defended.

Of course, I tend to equate 'wrong' with 'immoral.' So perhaps this is a difference of definitions.

carl

26 January 2013 at 14:09  
Blogger John Magee said...

Why did Europeans imagine having a united Europe in the form of the present European Union where they fly that blue flag with it's circle of yellow stars in their capitals they were going to keep their national sovereignty and their way of life? The was the intention of the EU to end the Europe that existed before the last decade of the 21st century to create a completely "new" Europe. Europeans gave themselves to the EU and now the EU wants it's pound of flesh.

One of the prices Europeans must pay the EU is the end of their ethnic and national identies which is one reason for the push by the governments of the EU for 3rd world and inter European immigration and migration. This is their way to end individual national and ethnic European identities. Supposedly to help end the possibility to end any future European wars. They forget there have been many civil wars in European history.

You can't live under the Euro flag and it's stars without surrendering your rights to what it represents. This is what the stars in the USA flag reprsent. Fifty states, one nation, which is indivisible.

A united Europe can't continue as it always has. It must decide on one language, one code of laws, one economy, and one identity not many. One embassy that represents all of the EU. It can't be any other way and not fragment sooner or later.

Good luck.

26 January 2013 at 15:37  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Naomi thank you, I saw a You Tube video of that disgusting professor Anderson some time ago, he was at Bournemouth uni. Not sure if been taken down as I can't seem to find it again.
He should be struck off for inciting young people into harmful and dangerous lifestyles. He's a vile attention seeking bugger, what he says is not at all educational just sensationalist boasting.

Danj0 8:24
“Equality, diversity, political correctness, health and safety etc aren't tenets of atheism”
They are along with atheism all socialist, communist Marxist command thinking and used as methods of control. Perpetuating the belief that there is no God when there could very well be a God or some sort of higher creator is negative control thinking. Health and Safety whilst necessary in sensible proportions has and is continuing to be used as an oppressive tool of control and is getting extreme indeed. It is crushing innovation and prosperity which is of course what these Fabianist thinking left wing communists want so they can control. Communism isn't dead it's thriving within.
Cameron is NOT a conservative but part of the left wing socialists and so is guilty of hypocrisy and fraud.
We voted him in thinking he was a Conservative but he's anything but! He duped us all.

John Magee
The EU state is intending to encompass some middle eastern countries as well as north Africa hence the encouragement of Africans to emigrate to Europe.

26 January 2013 at 17:09  
Blogger non mouse said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

26 January 2013 at 17:17  
Blogger non mouse said...

Took me a while to figure out what i-democracy is, Brother ivo! That discovered, I now perceive the focus of your piece - which leads me to several concerns about the political functions of communication technology.

Suffice it to observe that, once woven, a socio-political net** can be viewed from two sides: that of the hunters and that of the prey.

Of political choice, that is to say - we may imagine we choose sensibly/responsibly when we vote Left or Right. However, if we chase the hunters' bait, if left and right are defined by the hunter, and if the hunter controls the strings of the net --- we make no choice whatsoever. He will tighten his net when he chooses and we will be trapped.

And make no mistake, those commie-deconstructionist theorists (Lacan is one) have explored "net" imagery extensively. They're always on about it. So when they and their disciples choose to shut down internet and electronic communications..... Bingo. Crisis. "Normalisation": the the 'ph' of our environment is set to their specifications.

To apply old Omar's imagery again, then:
Ah, make the most of what we yet may spend,
Before we to into the dust descend;
Dust into dust and under dust to lie,
Sans wine, sans song, sans singer, and sans end.
(Omar Khayyam. "Rubaiyat," 23.)

Cont'd...

26 January 2013 at 17:25  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "They are along with atheism all socialist, communist Marxist command thinking and used as methods of control."

But they're not really, are they? I could just as easily say that this cultural Marxism stuff is the current narrative of the far-right-wing. Which it is.

Equality means equality of access or opportunity and is tied up with concepts of justice and fairness. That is, it's about what people are due.

Diversity is simply a fact of life in the UK and, I assert, a normal consequence of human nature. That is, in a free society, diverse lifestyles are inevitable.

If we're to set out a hierarchy where some minorities have fewer rights than the majority or other minorities then there should be solid justifications.

Political correctness is much-maligned by rags like the Daily Mail but there's more to it than political orthodoxy and it's not about Orwellian control.

I've already talked about health and safety. Most people who work in potentially dangerous jobs respect it for what it is and what it is for. There will always be a sense of health and safety "gone mad" but it's a Good Thing nonetheless.

Are they atheist tenets? No, of course not. Atheism ultimately means "without a belief in a god or gods". Even religionists who try to turn the notions of dogma and irrational belief around in weak retaliation surely can't make health and safety in the workplace the work of Richard Dawkins et al. It's risible.

26 January 2013 at 17:26  
Blogger non mouse said...

.... cont'd:

My illustration from the old Rebel suggests one reason why I appreciate His Grace's forum: he puts the issues out there so that we can consider how to preserve our culture and freedom. While still untrammelled, we can raise religio-political questions, and we can seek truth-oriented answers.

In response to the present prompt, my main question is:
Who is pulling the strings on our net?
Following your strand, this then leads to:
Why do we assume that we must vote for the puppets someone else places to our theoretical Left and Right?
Why don't we demand the right to choose our own candidates, who will address issues of freedom and independence as a nation - or other matters that concern us ?

As things stand, we are running into the net on marxist-euro terms, even as we fight each other for their bait.

Wakey. Wakey..... Never mind about Americans who think football should be played by hand; pace Omar: let 'Nolies' lay about them as they will' and Gators wide cry 'Supper,' Heed them not.
_________________
PS: As usual, there's nothing original about marxist net imagery. Wittingly or otherwise, they appropriate and corrupt Judaeo-Christian Interlace. Among other things, that can be viewed as a symbol for Christ: the interwoven God/Man, Body/Soul, and also the Word/word which leads to Text/text. (Latin texo, texere, texui, textum: to weave).

26 January 2013 at 17:28  
Blogger John Magee said...

Marie

Exactly. When will the EU stop having this insatiable lust to continue growing? First Western Europe,then most of Eastern Europe, and now dreams of including the Middle East, North Africa, maybe India. Why stop there? why not the entire world! Haven't we heard this before? The present EU has delusions of grandeur that outstrip Napoleon and Hitler. That's one reason why the Swiss have wisely opted out joining this secular monster which forgets it's Christian and European cultural roots. The Swiss have seen this sort of megalomania many times in Europe during the long history of their Republic since the late 1700's (their democracy goes back to the 1200's). By the way, Switzerland and the USA are the oldest modern Republics.


26 January 2013 at 18:00  
Blogger Albert said...

Carl,

I think we're in agreement. I'd put it like this: I think it is objectively wrong (morally) to vote for Cameron in these circumstances.

The idea that a rather dodgy promise of a referendum on the EU changes anything, is extraordinary to me.

26 January 2013 at 18:28  
Blogger John Magee said...

Diversity is the left's way to divide a successful Western, prosperous, and happy homogeneous (Gays, don't get excited,the word has nothing to do with homosexual) society and destroy it and remake it in the image the left wants to recreate.

This is why the modern left today has allied itself with such diametrically opposed groups as radical Gays and fundamentalist Muslims.

The radical left hates ancient Caucasian cultures and societies and cultures because these people tend to have an inate desire to be free and are individualists. This is why they never demand or ask that non white nations in Asia, Africa, or parts of Latin America with small European populations in places like Mexico or Central America mention "diversity" as a national demographic goal. These non white geographic areas in the world definately are NOT in support of ethnic or racial diversity and never talk about "diversity" as a national goal. I wonder why?

Diversity = divide, destroy, and remake

The concept of diversity may someday come back and bite some of it's most rabid supporters in the West. For example. As many Western nations continue to have their Muslim populations grow and they will, without a doubt, become large minorities or even majorities within 50 years. What does that future bode for Gays, atheists, those who live a secular and hedonistic life style? Not to mention Jews and Christians.

It's my belief that a London, Paris, Berlin, or New York City in 2040 full of mosques with large Muslim population are dominated by them will have very few, if any, Gay bars, Gay pride parades, or even members of Gay activist groups still alive.

Amsterdam which used to be a Gay "Mecca" (LOL)for European Gays now has a Muslim population approaching 35%. The Amsterdam city fathers as that visiting Gay males not familiar with the "new Amsterdam" do not hold hands in public or kiss as this may "offend" young impressionable Muslim immigrant males (or older ones too)and cause them do "get angry". Translated: be beaten in the street or worse by Muslim thugs.

Looks like traditional Dutch tolerance has gone the way of wooden shoes.

26 January 2013 at 18:32  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Interesting post Non- mouse.

Danj0
“But they're not really, are they? I could just as easily say that this cultural Marxism stuff is the current narrative of the far-right-wing. Which it is.”

Well yes it is the same and on the opposite end of the pole there is total anarchy which isn't good either. But we have slid from being just right of centre where people have government with a certain amount of freedom and independence to now bordering on far left control freakery with the state bullying teachers what to teach and parents what to tell their children. Insisting on redefining marriage, and denigrating God and the natural order of life.

Equality means equality of access or opportunity and is tied up with concepts of justice and fairness. That is, it's about what people are due.

Equality means of equal quality or same and homosexuals are NOT the same as heterosexuals. Equality of access or opportunity applies to job vacancies and that would mean someone gets a job on their abilities which if more than one candidate would be the results of some tests they would have to sit to test their ability for the job.

“Diversity is simply a fact of life in the UK and, I assert, a normal consequence of human nature. That is, in a free society, diverse lifestyles are inevitable.”

Yes I agree diversity happens naturally, so we don't need it quantifying! We don't need people telling us how many Asians, Africans, women, homosexuals etc... we have to employ in a company or have in government!

“If we're to set out a hierarchy where some minorities have fewer rights than the majority or other minorities then there should be solid justifications.”

No need to set out any hierarchy of rights at all. We don't need Human Rights anymore in this country, they are for countries that use torture and violence. Why do you think we need all these Rights when we already have our civilised laws.


“Political correctness is much-maligned by rags like the Daily Mail but there's more to it than political orthodoxy and it's not about Orwellian control.”

Of course it's about control and the more the better according to the left sliding government and mainstream political parties and especially the dictatorial EU.

I've already talked about health and safety. Most people who work in potentially dangerous jobs respect it for what it is and what it is for. There will always be a sense of health and safety "gone mad" but it's a Good Thing nonetheless.”

I disagree, it stifles creativity and inventions. In that case how did our fore bearers ever make anything without gloves, goggles, steal toe capped boots, hats, protective high visible yellow jackets, thermal lined underwear, nappies, name badges, electro checks, and a CSCS ID card to just be able to go onto a building site?

“Are they atheist tenets? No, of course not. Atheism ultimately means "without a belief in a god or gods". Even religionists who try to turn the notions of dogma and irrational belief around in weak retaliation surely can't make health and safety in the workplace the work of Richard Dawkins et al It's risible.”
Now you're being silly Danj0.

26 January 2013 at 19:09  
Blogger John Magee said...

Political correctness means censorship. It is anti freedom of speech and thought. It is a concept all free people should fight against.

26 January 2013 at 19:23  
Blogger non mouse said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

26 January 2013 at 20:44  
Blogger non mouse said...

Sigh ... oh the typos!

Oh, and with further reference to mine at 17:35, let us not ignore an article in The Telegraph proclaiming that the "Euro-court outlaws criticism of EU."

The movement to shut us up politically is well advanced. They published this by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard on 07 Mar 2001: The European Court of Justice ruled yesterday that the European Union can lawfully suppress political criticism of its institutions and of leading figures, sweeping aside English Common Law and 50 years of European precedents on civil liberties.

It's easily found by Google, so I won't post the link.

26 January 2013 at 20:48  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

DanJ0 said...

Game, set and match, me thinks. You have with these words demonstrated my point wonderfully.

"Dodo, you try and try and try and try and try and try and try and try and try and try and try ... yet the blog still continues despite your best efforts. You have tenacity though, I'll give you that.

It's a pity you're so dishonest and malevolent, with no integrity or discernable morals, so you have no high ground at all to stand on. It just makes you look like a berk."


Pure argumentum ad hominem - imputing motive without substance and descending to personal abuse!

!Dodo: "And, when all fails [...]"
Only it doesn't fail at all. That's one reason why you try to cause trouble with me all the time, you know that people like Naomi get pwned each time when they trot out their homophobia. You have to cluster in little packs to stop the weak getting savaged."


I know no such thing. I do know, as I posted earlier,:

"You present the 'nature of the beast' so well.

The secular, amoral sneering at values held by ordinary folk who may or may not have a solid belief in God. Yet they know He exists and expects certain things from us. The use of clever words and the presentation of *reasonable* concepts like 'equality', diversity' and 'human rights', to advance your cause step by step. And, when all fails, the attempt to manipulate people by use of personal attacks and accusations of 'bigot', 'in denial' and 'totalitarian'."

26 January 2013 at 22:38  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo, it's been demonstrated time and again that you are dishonest. You demonstrate malevolence daily. How you could ever claim to have integrity when you regular adopt a stance, such as fake shock at vulgarity, and then go on to behave the same way a day or so later. You assert Roman Catholicism and its dogma and standards on an Anglican blog, even goading the blog owner at times about it, yet you behave in such an ungodly way that I blush and I'm a damned atheist. You don't seem to care a hoot, either. It quite literally beggars belief.

27 January 2013 at 07:30  
Blogger len said...

His Grace`s Blog is a beacon of Light and it is quite apparent that there are those who despise the Light.

It must be obvious to all who these people are(probably except them!)

27 January 2013 at 09:47  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

DanJ0 - you've trotted all this nonsense out before. This thread and the one above demonstrates your 'game'.

Now, have the final say and move on. There will be no long running thread here giving you the attention you crave.

27 January 2013 at 13:40  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "Now, have the final say and move on."

Dodo, the last time you said that it really made me laugh because you couldn't actually do it and ended up getting all shrill until you were eventually rescued by your twunt of a sidekick. It was ridiculous.

As I said back then, I'd be more than happy never to exchange another word with you, or indeed any of your little coven, but you won't have any of it. It is you who pursues me thread after thread, one on one, trying to trash this blog with your malevolence.

27 January 2013 at 14:02  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Look at the thread above as an example. The thread ticks along with views being exchanged. Then, along comes your sidekick and launches into an attack, I respond, and then you're there with yet another string of malevolence, playing off your little coven again. Thread after thread. It is you who thrives on the trouble and who loves the attention.

27 January 2013 at 14:06  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

27 January 2013 at 15:00  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

*rolls eyes*

My dear len,

Okay, so occasionally I do too far; mea culpa. However, maybe you should be more proactive in challenging the anti-Christian views expressed on here. To my knowledge, you have never directly challenged those who insult Christianity and seek to undermine its moral teachings? Instead, you focus almost exclusively on condemning the Christian faith of others and one in particular. Why is that?

Christians are not the enemy - or haven't you noticed?

27 January 2013 at 15:09  
Blogger len said...

I assume that you are owning up to be one who wishes to' extinguish the light' Dodo?.

There are many who profess to be 'Christians' but their actions and their Words betray the fact that they 'never knew Him...'which is quite worrying.
I would prefer to preach the gospel to the lost but 'christians' keep getting in the way!

27 January 2013 at 18:29  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

How silly you are; nothing of the sort. The Light len is Christ not a blog. Even you must know this. It's not a sacred space, nor a Divine institution!

Part of being a Christian is to fight to defend the faith and not just post generalised 'homilies' around issues. This site generates the expression of strong opinion. Yet, all you appear to do is attack the Catholic Church rather than the real enemy - secularism and atheism. And, for some peculiar reason, you ally yourself to a homosexual hedonist who pours scorn on all you profess to be true.

I'll ask again. Why is this?

27 January 2013 at 20:42  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. Time to deny the Christian in Len. He cannot be a Christian as he doesn’t sin. He is an ex-Christian, if he were ever one at all...

27 January 2013 at 21:26  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

27 January 2013 at 23:10  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Inspector

I guess the enemy within is an even greater threat than those that hurl abuse from outside the Church. They weaken the Christian response. It's not for me to say whether he is or is not a Christian. He clearly thinks he is. It is unseemly and damaging for us to engage in disputes with him over the interpretation of the Scripture. I will say I do not recognise the Gospel in what he preaches.

27 January 2013 at 23:12  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. Look up the rite of excommunication. We’ll have an on line service. He needs to be thrown out, as deserves a dangerous heretic...

28 January 2013 at 00:02  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Inspector

Hush now, I'm sure God has a purpose for us all - even heretics. Besides, how can he be excommunicated when he is not a member of the Catholic Church?

Leave him be. He may arrive at the Truth one day. He certainly has eclectic beliefs and recent posts suggest he is exploring the Eastern Orthodox Churches. A step in the right direction, wouldn't you agree?

28 January 2013 at 00:23  
Blogger len said...

To be excommunicated from the Catholic religious organisation should be the main aim of every Christian.
Dodo, The unadulterated Word of God 'is a light'.some might call it' a lamp' to see where one is going

'Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path.'(Psalm 119

I think you do His Grace a great disservice not to consider his Blog 'enlightening'.

29 January 2013 at 18:55  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

len are you seriously comparing this blog to the Word of God, to the Light of the World? Please ... do me a favour.

29 January 2013 at 21:19  
Blogger len said...

Dodo the light ..the Word...(sigh)
throws hand up in despair.

30 January 2013 at 18:41  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

len

len

Lie down in a darkened room, close your eyes and take several deep breaths. The medication is clearly having an adverse effect and I'd suggest contact with NHS 24.

Come to think of it, you could well be posting from hospital. Single, en suite, rooms with internet access, are the standard these days.

I trust the Local Authority are fulfilling their duty to care for your cats during your stay in hospital.

30 January 2013 at 22:18  
Blogger len said...

I assume from your advice you are speaking from personal experience Dodo?....

Your beak seem to grow with every post of yours?.

31 January 2013 at 08:29  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Professional experience, len; professional experience.

4 February 2013 at 00:56  

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