Friday, February 08, 2013

Bishop failed to get English and Maths O-levels and 'ended up as a teacher'

Responding to a Government statement about the decision not to move from GCSEs to the EBCs, the Lord Bishop of Bath and Wells responded:
My Lords, I speak on behalf on the Church of England but on a personal note to begin with, I failed the 11-plus, went to a secondary modern and got five O-levels, not including English and maths. I ended up as a teacher.

I have three sons who teach and they thoroughly enjoy the profession they are in. I welcome the announcement, on behalf of the Church of England, and await more details of what it will mean for our schools. Our concerns about the Government's EBacc plans have always focused on the downgrading of religious education as a core subject. In modern society, understanding about faith has never been more important for both civic discourse and cultural enrichment and we eagerly await the findings of the All Party Parliamentary Group on Religious Education to be published next month
.
His Grace is delighted that Bishop Peter overcame the hurdles, rejections and failures to rise to the highest echelons of Christian ministry. And he is equally delighted that the Bishop's sons all enjoy the noblest of professions. Presumably, Redland (teacher-training) College did not accept candidates without English and Maths O-level - even in the 1960s - and neither did Oak Hill Theological College - even in the 1970s. Did the bishop re-take his English and Maths O-levels? What provision was there for this in 1960?

Surely this isn't a case of 'Those who can, teach; those who can't, become bishops'?

++UPDATE 3.00pm

There appears to be a cetain ambiguity here. His Grace read '..got five O-levels, not including English and maths' as an indication that the Bishop passed five O-levels but failed English and Maths. It has been suggested by communicant 'Unknown' below that the Bishop, in fact, secured seven O-levels, ie, five plus English and Maths. This being the case, why did he not simply tell Their Lordships that he 'got seven O-levels, including English and Maths'?

Either way, what a wonderful story of overcoming educational adversity.    

49 Comments:

Blogger Unknown said...

He didn't say that he failed them, merely that his count of 5 did not include them.

8 February 2013 14:37  
Blogger Mike Stallard said...

Do you know what? Now the Anglicans have more or less shed their Catholic branch, and become either Liberal or Evangelical, I find it sillier and sillier to see people dressed up as fancy dress party bishops.
Does anything look more insincere or less impressive?
It reminds me of the Chaplain at my daughter's graduation who actually turned up in a blue lampshade!

Why not go back to the traditional dress of cuffs, gaiters and a surplice? No need for all the colourful rubbish - look at the dented mitre!

8 February 2013 14:43  
Blogger Arden Forester said...

Mike,

If you want to see a bishop looking like a bishop this is it in the See of Ebbsfleet. Oh, and Catholic doctrine too!

http://www.ebbsfleet.org.uk/

8 February 2013 16:01  
Blogger David Hussell said...

As a Low Church Anglican (I don't like the media connations now ascribed to "Evangelical", also it's such a vague term nowadays) I rather agree with Mike Stallard. It's not a point worth fighting over but I do find the personal "customisation" of clergy vestments rather pompous, self important and well, just plain silly. Surely it's what clergy and bishops teach, preach and achieve, as in "do", that counts surely. And there must be better things to spend the money on, surely? However I will admit to being a bit plain in my tastes. Let's just get on with the task of spreading the Word and putting Christ's message, which may be through Works, out there in the world, shall we, and not dress up excessively, anyway.

8 February 2013 17:12  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Either way, what a wonderful story of overcoming educational adversity. Are you insane man !

failed the 11-plus,

No he didn’t. He took an IQ test at age 11. His resulting efforts showed that at the time, his education would have been better served at a school where his contemporaries would be of similar ability. So, no one too smart, with the danger that the rest of the class were taught above their ability to absorb, and no rioting thickoes, holding everyone back.

The smart were at the local grammar being drilled with facts and figures. And the thick were having their problems addressed with a 10 to 1 pupil / teacher ratio in a special school.

You will never, ever get a better system of educating the young than this. 45 years of ‘comprehensive’ schooling, turning out ill disciplined innumerate illiterates of little bloody use to any potential employer is the absolute SHOCKING proof – is it not ???





8 February 2013 17:57  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Mike

Uniforms are important.

If you need to hide behind them.

I personally think that we need to import some Bishops from Africa that have something to say that is worth listening to.

Our Bishops say nothing and as far as I can tell do nothing.

They certainly do nothing to help people to salvation.

Most of the time it seems the vast majority seem determined to undermine their own faith and the faith of others. For many their applications must have consisted of "I don't believe in the Gospel. Pick me!"

And it works they were selected.

Our current Archbishop of Wales is a prime example. From what he writes I have serious doubts if he has any faith. His faith seems to be promoting the liberal agenda. He is very keen on gay marriage etc etc He is like DanJo but in the Church.

Sorry, that is very unfair.


On DanJo

Phil

8 February 2013 18:00  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Inspector

"You will never, ever get a better system of educating the young than this. 45 years of ‘comprehensive’ schooling, turning out ill disciplined innumerate illiterates of little bloody use to any potential employer is the absolute SHOCKING proof – is it not ???"

I blame the parents. My eldest kids went to good Boarding Schools. (Well what £30k each per year buys)

They were often amazed at how ill disciplined some of the kids were.

Also many were really messed up as they had been parked at B School while "mum and dad" got on with their new lives and families after divorce.

B -School is a place (If you have the money) you put your teenage kids that neither parent wants at home any more.

My girls said that in these places if daddy had a lot of money (some had 100s of millions) then you learned that if you were a drama queen you could do anything.

Better than most comps I grant you. I went to a Grammar school and was not very impressed. My wife went to a comp. This is was where the motivation for B school came from. I am not sure all our younger kids will go though.

I think that education should be an entitlement. However, if you don't want to take it up then you should be able to leave say at 14. I think that making kids stay at school until they are 18 is completely stupid. They tell kids you hate school and are useless at learning (that is what exams are all about for the less able)so you must stay art school to endure more of the same, then wonder why they misbehave!

And if they misbehave enough... we drug them....I think we need to start with firing the ones in charge of this (expensive)lunacy called "education"

Bringing back Grammar schools probably will not work. Society has changed. We need to bring back some common sense, virtue and Christian ethics into the system as well.

Ideally starting with the parents!

Phil

8 February 2013 18:26  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Phil, have to disagree with you on Grammar schools. The next generation of leadership and ability should be educated well away from riff raff...

8 February 2013 18:54  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Inspector

I am far more rif raf than my wife who went to a comp.

The rif raf thing is more to do with parents and locality than anything else.

I think in the inner cities a Grammar school might work, the problem is that they will have to teach all the Government rubbish and be inspected by Ofsted to make sure that they are teaching rubbish.

Private Grammar Schools. Free from Government interference. Now you are talking.

Any school free of Government interference will do better. Even our Boarding Schools are not really free of the Government.

Anyway, where will you find the teachers who have not been taught and trained to worship the Thought Police?

Phil



8 February 2013 19:11  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Phil, as boy, this one was taught in a grammar school whose syllabus was determined by the examination board who awarded what was then O levels. Ours was Oxford. That’s what we learnt. We had no time for classes like ‘social awareness’ or ‘womens studies’. It was all so simple then. And a strong headmaster will sort out the pinkies fresh from teacher training college. Note headmaster and not head mistress. Too much caring, sympathy and understanding from the latter. The very last attributes you need when educating todays teenagers...


8 February 2013 19:29  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Yes, let's bring some real bishops over from Africa. They have faith. There are some good indigenous bishops here but many just like being liberal, trendy and dressing up, using up the spiritual capital built up by countless generations of past Christians.Most of that capital has been consumed now. I have limited respect for the Anglican episcopy. It must be intensely frustrating for the good ones and I do hope that ++Justin can make some serious changes, and return to a more robust, simple faith. The Church has to define itself against the world, not try to reflect it.

8 February 2013 19:48  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

David Hussell, the best place for African bishops is Africa. Only they know their troubled, violent and increasingly diseased flock. They also have the advantage of being black, so no one can call them Western religious colonisers. There’s enough work over there to keep each of them occupied for several lifetimes.

There are plenty of churchmen here who can be elevated to bishop. High church non liberal types. All that is required is an effective AoC to bring them out...

8 February 2013 20:03  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Phil: "Our current Archbishop of Wales is a prime example. From what he writes I have serious doubts if he has any faith."

Since my name came up there ... in my experience, there are plenty of Christians who publically claim to have faith but display little to none of its alleged fruits.

8 February 2013 20:14  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

There you are DanJ0. Now, where is the apology you owe the Inspector, after your unsubstantiated accusation that he labelled you a paedophile, you unprincipled scoundrel....


8 February 2013 20:25  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I owe you nothing of course, it being true and all.

8 February 2013 20:28  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Having googled, the Archbishop of Wales seems like a quite decent man in the scheme of things.

8 February 2013 20:30  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

The assembled are invited to come to their own opinion of DanJ0. He made a serious accusation, and on being unable to back it up, refuses to retract. He is not an honourable man, and his offerings to this site should be received with that in mind.

8 February 2013 20:36  
Blogger Tony B said...

Blimey. Three in a row that aren't about gay marriage! I didn't know you had it in you..

8 February 2013 20:41  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

DanJ0 thus joins Ernsty in the corner reserved for those "bearing false witness". Scoundrels!

8 February 2013 20:42  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Tony B,

In case you hadn't noticed, it's been the big news story of the week. His Grace likes to be topical. If you don't understand that, please depart for the Telegraph blogs.

8 February 2013 20:44  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "The assembled are invited to come to their own opinion of DanJ0. He made a serious accusation, and on being unable to back it up, refuses to retract. He is not an honourable man, and his offerings to this site should be received with that in mind."

There's so much abuse to go through but here's one instance, though it's not the one from way back that I remember so clearly:

"Not much to report in your absence. Top news is that DanJ0 has found himself a rent boy. Pops round after school so he does {AHEM}"

22 October 2012 19:43

8 February 2013 20:54  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

He was 16, so the Inspector recalls. Fair game after you buggers managed to get the age of consent lowered to 6. (...Er, that should be 16, {AHEM} )

8 February 2013 21:27  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

No apology, Inspector?

8 February 2013 21:39  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Inspector

Whilst illegal to pay a 16 year old for sexual gratification, it does not constitute paedophilia. This is a perverted sexual interest in prepubescent children, generally those age 11 years or younger.

8 February 2013 22:14  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
It does look like a bit like a party hat. My 6 year old granddaughter could do better.

8 February 2013 22:16  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

How in the name of Christ has this thread descended into talk of homosexual paedophilia?

Just stop. For God's sake, stop. Or go. Leave. Permanently.

8 February 2013 22:18  
Blogger Roy said...

In the first two or there decades after the end of the Second World War there were significant improvements in social mobility. Those improvements came to an end after the great majority of grammar schools had been abolished. Admittedly that does not prove cause and effect but it is certainly something that should be considered.

Do our ruling class like Cameron and Clegg consider it? Of course not! Those privileged public school boys don't want anyone to enjoy the privilege of a grammar school education.

Clegg was quoted last week as saying he would send his children to a fee-paying school if his wife wanted them to go there. His former rival for leadership of the LibDems has also been in the news for using his (former) wife as an alibi. Why do the male LibDems need to hide behind women's skirts?

Of course there are also plenty of Labour politicians who don't want selective education for other people's children but do want it for their own.

And politicians wonder why much of the public regards them as hypocrites!

8 February 2013 22:27  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

DanJo

"there are plenty of Christians who publically claim to have faith but display little to none of its alleged fruits."

Yes me for one. I'm a right unpleasant b...

If Jesus had not gone to the cross I would have no chance.

I am just grateful he would do this for me

Phil

8 February 2013 22:35  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Inspector

"Phil, as boy, this one was taught in a grammar school whose syllabus was determined by the examination board who awarded what was then O levels."

You will find that many things have changed. Not least what examination boards can assess, how they can do it and what ways, are all determined by the Government.

It is to all intent a communist model of education with private enterprise added in so that some people can make money.

Presumably the Bishop went to a secondary modern school when schools were much freer to innovate and so may have developed other skills that served the Bishop well.

Schools are far far less free nowadays. Nobody could set up an old fashioned Grammar school without an opt out from (all) Government controls.

Phil





8 February 2013 22:43  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Inspector

I am not going to get into an argument about race. It is in interesting that African clergy seem to be able to grow congregations far faster than demographics (5% to 60% Christian in 100 years)Where as our have suffered a decline.

Also interesting that African education is still selective and traditional. You will still find many schools meeting the "Grammar School" criteria in Africa.

Are the two connected?

I think that there is plenty of evidence to suggest that freedom is needed for both Christianity and virtue. Big Government stifles both Christianity and virtue. We can see in the UK. Big Government means low freedom, loss of virtue, low morals. social decay, so the Government steps in with more laws, more social workers etc, leading to less freedom, etc etc etc. So the downward spiral gains momentum

Phil

8 February 2013 22:57  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

DanJo

"the Archbishop of Wales seems like a quite decent man in the scheme of things."

I'm sure he is. The trouble is that is that we do expect a bit more than just decency from an A Bishop.

Something on the Christian Leadership Angle would be nice.

Phil

PS I think "in the scheme of things" is the heart of the problem.

8 February 2013 23:05  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Phil

One rather believes that we as Christians should seek, through our own effort, to overcome our human failings, participating with the grace of God. I believe we risk losing salvation through persistent sin, even the less grave.

8 February 2013 23:18  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Phil. We live in sophisticate times. It needn’t be this way. We can return to the soil, to nature, but we can’t do it the way we are carrying on. This same sex marriage business is a shining example of how we are destroying ourselves. The only way forward at the moment is UKIP. After we leave the EU, we can then do an overdue audit...

8 February 2013 23:36  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0 at 19:43, are you so dense that you don’t recognise Inspector humour when you see it ?

8 February 2013 23:43  
Blogger non mouse said...

Did the bishop re-take his English and Maths O-levels? What provision was there for this in 1960? Goodness, Your Grace! Let me try and remember.

It was possible to re-take, though I don't know how many subjects would be approved. Methinks this person re-took Chemistry in the November following Summer O Levels. 2 years later, she even added another 'O' by taking the "General Paper" along with her A Levels.

So perhaps the bishop added some O Levels later. In any case, he would have had to do A Levels in order to get to college; he could have done that at school. Or he might have done them later -- through evening classes or something, at a local Tech.

I think, furthermore, that the system had some other flexibility under its local government. I know promising scholars could sometimes take courses they needed (e.g. Greek) at "the boys'" school; I believe people also occasionally transferred to grammar schools from sec mods or others, even after the 11+.

Yes, then. The system did allow the talented and determined to overcome adversity. The point is that they had to raise their sights and their standards, and they had to work very hard to do so.

That's not what goes on now.

8 February 2013 23:59  
Blogger Julia Gasper said...

As far as I am aware, it has always been a requirement for trainees even at a teacher training college to get English and Maths O-level or GCSE.
I am not worried about the bishop of Wales. If he got seven O-levels he was head and shoulders above the graduates of today. Anyway, vocation and O-levels are not closely related. It is the bishop of Buckingham who worries me.

9 February 2013 01:24  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Julia

My idiotic school entered me for 17 O levels.....Some I got reasonable grades in like maths, physics and a few others. The rest just a pass (grade C)

I did not find them difficult and did very little work for them. However, my kids had to work hard as GCSEs are different in that it is now essential to get grades A or A*. The same at A level if you want to go to a decent Uni

That is far harder than O levels and A levels in my day as you did not need the top grades to get in. Indeed I was offered a Uni place (not a poly --remember them) with just two E grades at A level.

Phil

9 February 2013 05:47  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

dodo

"One rather believes that we as Christians should seek, through our own effort, to overcome our human failings, participating with the grace of God. I believe we risk losing salvation through persistent sin, even the less grave."

Quite right though I would replace through our own effort by through prayer

Phil

9 February 2013 08:48  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Dodo

Or just by by reading the bible

Worth a read as every thread seems to move to homosexuality

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2013/january-february/my-train-wreck-conversion.html

9 February 2013 09:05  
Blogger Matt A said...

Phil: That story is both amazing and challenging, thank you

9 February 2013 09:45  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "DanJ0 at 19:43, are you so dense that you don’t recognise Inspector humour when you see it ?"

You're still continuing despite the blog owner's comment? Inspector, you need to read the context again. Your attack didn't come out of nowhere. Honourable? You disgust me.

9 February 2013 10:04  
Blogger Manfarang said...

I am surprised the Inspector's school wasn't approved.

9 February 2013 11:10  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Phil, interesting link.

9 February 2013 21:04  
Blogger len said...

It is interesting to note that Jesus chose 'humble people' to be his disciples.

The Apostle Paul(not so humble) had to be literally 'knocked to the ground'before he could hear God.Moses spent 40 yrs in the desert before he was able to serve God.
Being full 'of yourself'is no qualification to be able to serve in the kingdom of God rather it disqualifies you.Education particularly at the higher levels can 'puff one up' fill one with pride.
There are two types of wisdom one from above and one from below.
The wisdom of God is 'foolishness'to men and if one wants to become wise( in God`s Wisdom) one must become a fool in 'earthly wisdom.'
So being learned is not particularly useful in Gods Kingdom but being wise is.

10 February 2013 08:39  
Blogger non mouse said...

Well now, Mr. Len (08:39), I guess that depends on what you think "education"* is. For my part, I know quite a few very educated people who say they learned quite early: "The more I know, the more I know I don't know."

I do believe, in any case, that those who have worked through several higher degrees are conscious of their own motives for acquiring knowledge. Their actions will reveal those motives though.

Another element to consider is that people who study for many long years will also read the effect of knowledge on their own hearts and minds. After all, application of the heart and mind is a necessary component in the Search for Truth.

Nevertheless, I agree that an educational system can enforce ideology which subverts that search. To such an end, we see considerable evidence of marxist infiltration. I believe the invaders are the authors of their own demise, however: their end-product is not dedicated to Truth, and it is, therefore untrustworthy. So yes, receivers must beware.

Cont'd...
_____________
*Latin: educare - to bring up; rear.
There is another word: educere which includes the connotation of bringing out; or leading out; it's related to birth. Overall, then, I can see an application that suggests birth, nurturing, and growth of ideas so that they can develop into wise and knowledgeable action.

10 February 2013 18:18  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

len,

What gush!

Being wise to the world does not preclude one being blessed with God's Wisdom. And being learned about the world and God's Truth, is not mutually exclusive. Some have to teach while others have still to learn.

10 February 2013 18:19  
Blogger non mouse said...

cont'd...

At the same time, we do well to remember that our model of education came to us through the study of the Bible in Christian Schools (cf. Theodore and Hadrian,7th century) - albeit originally in Latin, ex Greek, ex Hebrew & Aramaic. Even in Roman Britain, many schools seem to have been attached to churches, even as Roman education stressed study of Virgil.

In translating those repositories to English (with help, even, from the Irish), the system brought together the fruits of many traditions of knowledge-gathering. Clerics wove them as words under the aegis of the Word; and in light of that spirit, our learning developed to the extent it did.

Some "educated people" still seek to preserve and pass on that tradition. As Chaucer had it of his Clerk of Oxenforde: And gladly wolde he lerne, and gladly teche. (General Prologue 305-310).

So I cannot dismiss as worthless either "education," or the time, effort, and expense that the "educated" dedicate to it. I honour the doctorates of His Grace and Dr. Dawn, for example; still, I might join you in being less sanguine about that displayed by Professor Dawkins.

10 February 2013 18:36  
Blogger len said...

There are Christians who attend University and leave atheists.Having had Christianity 'knocked out of them' by their tutors.

The carnal mind is enmity towards God and the more knowledge the carnal mind acquires the more entrenched(in unbelief) it becomes.

The Wisdom of God is revealed through the Cross of Jesus Christ but this is foolishness to the carnal mind .'The carnal' would have God coming in power destroying all opposition not surrendering to the Cross.The Jewish people hoped for a Messiah to drive the Romans out of Israel not one who surrendered to the Cross.

I suppose the Pharisees and the scribes were the 'highly educated' people of their day did this help them identify the Messiah.?.

There are differing sources of wisdom and the only true source comes from God

James 3:13-18
"Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom.*But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth.

This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly,sensual, demonic.

For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there *

But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.

Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

10 February 2013 19:17  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Yes len, since you put it that way, who could argue with you?

11 February 2013 14:25  

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