Saturday, February 09, 2013

'Like the Wideness of the Sea' by Maggi Dawn

Maggi Dawn is a theologian musician whose academic career, previously at Cambridge and currently Yale, has not prevented her from acquiring a reputation for writing accessibly for the ordinary reader.

In her latest book Like the Wideness of the Sea she addresses the continuing difficulties of the Church of England in completing the process of embracing fully the ministry of women by appointing female bishops. She identifies, rightly or wrongly, that the Church has already decided on this course of action, and much of the agony of the moment derives from a structural inability to move forwards or backwards for reasons few comprehend.

It will come as no surprise to anyone where her sympathies lie, but it would be a mistake to think that there is nothing in this book for those continuing to doubt or struggling with the issue.

She begins by likening the Church's current position to that of the vessel in Coleridge's Rime of the Ancient Mariner, from which the title derives. Few will dispute that the CofE is currently becalmed in a place most of its occupants do not fully understand, and most will hope that the analogy holds true when reminded that the Mariner finally finds a way out of limbo by encountering life in an unexpected transformative way.

She usefully summarises both the recent history of women's ministry in the Church and of this particular measure. I suspect that few of us who have an opinion on the issue could actually explain how we arrived at the impasse, and she reminds us that the issue of women bishops flows naturally from the decision to ordain women. For those seriously seeking a way through the problems, familiarity with the route by which we arrived can only assist, not least by ensuring that we do not waste time going over old ground. ‘Those who fail to learn from history are forced to relive it’, so having a readable potted history will help anyone seeking to grapple with a difficult and seemingly intractable problem.

As a theologian, one would expect some biblical exploration, and it is pleasing to be wrong-footed as she sets to work. Rather than storming the ramparts, she begins by considering the theology of waiting. That exercise is worthwhile and instructive beyond the subject in hand.

She draws on contemporary examples of agonised waiting such as that of the Hillsborough disaster families, noting from the Book of Proverbs that ‘Hope deferred makes the heart sick but a longing fulfilled is the tree of life’. The purposeful waiting of Advent and Lent is differentiated from institutional lethargy and the deadening effects of what she describes as the ‘deferral of resolution’.

She does not pray in aid Dr Martin Luther King's plea to put behind us ‘the paralysis of analysis’, but writes in a similar vein, and is prepared to consider that if ‘to everything there is a season’, then there comes a time when patient ‘waiting on the Lord’ can and should give way to righteous anger. Both are biblical responses.

God is not neglected. There is an interesting exploration of the idea that our waiting for God is sometimes mirrored by His expectation of us: and as time changes so does context. Whereas once the Church would have been one of many scenarios in which women were under-represented in the highest echelons, we are no longer camouflaged in this way. We stand out, but not in a good way, and that can be both de-motivating for those within and alienating for those on the outside who look in with incomprehension bordering on incredulity.

The Ancient Mariner begins his escape from atrophy when he sees the sea snakes around him which somehow reconnects him with life.

Towards the end of this short book, she explains her own route to ordained ministry which fulfilled the theology she outlines; that nobody arrives at ministry through personal conviction alone but rather through a sense of calling in conjunction with the Church from its separate discernment of vocation. Thus it was that what began as a simple offer of her musical and performance talents to improve the liturgy at her local church was quickly identified to be necessarily fulfilled through ordination, even though that was not an available option in 1990.

That is a useful reminder that not every woman-priest’s vocation is rooted in feminist ambition: some were called ‘by a church to a ministry that didn't yet officially exist’. Her account of the hostility she encountered is shocking on the simplest level of courtesy let alone within a church.

The years in between have been ones where the Church has struggled to retain those who have a problem accepting women’s ministry. Those leavings, real or potential, tend to be open and known, but her story highlights the erosive effect of constantly having to justify a ministry, being repeatedly undermined and needing to live constantly with the sense that personal presence is in some way an offence to the ecclesiastical order.

Many women in the Church choose not to highlight their experiences because ‘nice girls don't get angry’, but it is important to hear that which has often been repressed out of politeness or fear of making things worse.

This is, however no ‘misery memoir, but rather a prelude to her principal theological point. It is not the harm this does to women priests of which she complains, but rather the ‘pinched narrow and mean’ image it presents of God, and of His Church. God is not celebrated in the ungenerous rejection of half His creation.

At this point in her story she resolves to leave ministry, with the blessing of her bishop, and to seek to fulfil her calling away from the constant necessity of campaigning and justifying her place in the Church.

While putting together a collection of part-time jobs to make ends meet, a letter unexpectedly arrives offering her the position of Dean of Chapel and Professor of Theology at Yale University. The new life is in an environment as welcoming, open accepting and fulfilling as the previous one had been tense, suspicious and combative.

One does not need a Masters degree in theology to imagine the conclusions drawn.

She adds to the obvious conclusion the fact that her productivity surged in the absence of suspicion, resisting harassment and bullying. Whatever one's take on the issue, few can deny the debilitating effects of the long attritional process in which the English Church is currently mired.

Inevitably she reflects how her earlier ministry might have fared if she had worked within a similarly affirming and accepting environment, and the lesson for the Church and the under-powered performance of distracted ministries is plain.

She now lives in the kind of environment which she hoped to experience back in the heady days after the first approval of women's ordination in 1992. Inevitably one reflects that if these are the thoughts of one who has successfully passed through the rejection, how must the experience of paralysed process feel for those less confident, less supported, still clinging to hope of resolution.

In her conclusion she grasps the nettle. There is no magic compromise. Either women's ministry is embraced in its fullest form or it should be repealed, and efforts to run a church with polar opposite interpretation will please none and fail. That said, she would be prepared to see some churches allowed to continue to seek the direct ministry of a male priest but the notion of second class of woman bishop is not negotiable for her, nor, she postulates, the growing cohort of women on whose talents the Church increasingly depends.

It is at this point that I would have appreciated her views on some of the theological objections currently outstanding. I can guess what she makes of ‘headship’; I am less sure on ‘sacramental assurance’ and the book might have helped those less versed in the argument.

That is a minor criticism. This is her testimony and it is instructive. Her story ends that sometimes it is more important to take the short-term pain of making a decision than to dwell in deadlock. People will leave whether a decision is made or no decision is made, and she plausibly points out that too legalistic a settlement no longer looks like a marriage but rather divorce.

This is a short book and a good one. Most who buy it will probably be of similar mind to her already; if so they will be emboldened. The unsure may be swayed. Those who can never accept women's ministry probably will not read it, but it does give some indication of what has been lost through the unedifying wranglings of synodical indecision.

Her final charming anecdote is worth waiting for, and I shall not spoil its impact.

(Posted by Brother Ivo)

220 Comments:

Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

"It is at this point that I would have appreciated her views on some of the theological objections currently outstanding. I can guess what she makes of ‘headship’; I am less sure on ‘sacramental assurance’ and the book might have helped those less versed in the argument.

That is a minor criticism."


Minor criticism? One would have thought this was the central issue. Even good and faithful people, with noble motives err. The theology of 'headship' and 'sacramental assurance' is surely central.

9 February 2013 10:04  
Blogger Corrigan said...

The problem with the Church of England is not that it is becalmed, but rather in the structure of the ship itself. Essntially, it is a pleasure craft, constructed for the ease of its passengers, rather than a working vessel designed to navigate through the seas as they exist. It was fine on the millpond sea of empire, but today what is needed is a disciplined working ship with a crew dedicated to working the vessel to port, not with an eye on advancement. ABSs please line up at the gangplank of the SS Left Footer where first officer Peter will take your applications. Working crew only, no passengers, please...

9 February 2013 10:06  
Blogger Flossie said...

Well YG, your penultimate paragraph is certainly true in my case - I shall not be reading it! I have read enough of WATCH's press releases to get the measure of how the C of E is heading.

I would urge your communicants to read this article by Hannah Phillips from this month's edition of New Directions, setting out in a clear and straightforward manner the REAL reasons why so many are opposed to women in Holy Orders, not those spitefully portrayed by some of the WATCH women of misogyny and backwardness.

It's called 'Seeking for truth – reflections on the ways in which the decision to ordain women changed the nature of the Church.'

http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/2013/02/02/seeking-for-truth-reflections-on-the-ways-in-which-the-decision-to-ordain-women-changed-the-nature-of-the-church/

9 February 2013 10:10  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Flossie

I also posted this on another Cranmer Thread

The best I read in a long while

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2013/january-february/my-train-wreck-conversion.html

The sad thing is that those in favour of Women's Headship will, I expect, see no parallels or warnings in this article

Phil


9 February 2013 11:33  
Blogger Albert said...

Interesting, the title made me think of Faber's hymn.

I suspect that few of us who have an opinion on the issue could actually explain how we arrived at the impasse

I think it is very obvious how it happened. From the theological principles of the CofE is was simply not possible to demonstrate that it is right to ordain women. This meant that space had to be promised to those who were opposed (as being faithful Anglicans).

However, there was so little theology in the CofE then, that, rather like gay 'marriage' supporters, those in favour thought opponents were just prejudiced and would overwhelmingly accept the innovation with time.

So women were 'ordained priest' while provision was put in place for those opposed and care was necessarily taken to ensure women were not made bishops. The trouble is that ordaining women priest without ordaining them bishop makes no logical sense. On the other hand, opposition grew as the theology and other consequences became clearer.

Hence for all practical purposes the decision to ordain women priests was a decision to make them bishops, even while it was simultaneously a decision not to make them bishops.

Those who fail to learn from history are forced to relive it’

So what's the lesson? Christians should not do things for non-theological reasons. But that lesson will not be learnt, because it would mean stopping ordaining women.

9 February 2013 11:33  
Blogger Kinderling said...

The problem with Dr Martin Luther king's equality speech and the resultant ghettos of Blacks in the West today, was the connection of not actually living a spirtual life while still proclaiming one.

"flesh give birth to flesh, spirit gives birth to spirit"

To emulate, mimick, copy, role play, ritual, legislate, does not make a free church or a free society. It makes prisoners held to ransom by the growing depraved who have that full citizenship.

The only person you have to change and set free, is yourself; via your attitude for forgiveness and repentance of wilful ignorance. Never stop discovering.

There are groups of people such as Lesbians, Christians, Communists and Fascists who look alike and sound alike and all revile those who leave. They are not of the spirit.

Your allegience is only to the truth: if you cannot consume manna from heaven you then turn to eating off the flesh of others.

Like Gay Marriage, women got the vote. Giving the keys of the kingdom to humans who had not found wisdom but the message that vanity with a cruel tongue gets what you want. Voting the resulting 'boys,' femen, we call politicians.

Awakened women decry the low conscious state of their peers, Inteligent men weep for theirs.

When I go to church I listen to a Christopher Hitchens debate or watch a BBC wildlife programme with the sound turned off.

"That is a useful reminder that not every woman-priest’s vocation..."

There is no 'priest-vocation'. That was St Paul's vocation, another fornicator 'I have a dream' looking for peace of pie from the table that was not his to receive. Creating a new methodology of irresponsibility for salvation.

When women wake up and abandon their Churches, their fake priests will starve, so that they can too, finally, see the light.

An intellectual woman writing about the rights to become a priest... well, this is the greatest irony.

9 February 2013 11:44  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Also

The CofE is not becalmed but sinking as more and more holes are drilled into it by those inside of it.

The message that is clear to me is when you walk away from the Bible. You walk away from God.

The reverse is also true.

My experience is that current Theology has little interest in the Bible. Almost a contempt

The Church would be better off without most of them.

Phil



9 February 2013 11:52  
Blogger AncientBriton said...

The 'theology of waiting' examples suggest it was pre-ordained that women would be successors to the Apostles. Strange that the Son of God wasn't privy to that!

Well said as ever Flossie.

9 February 2013 11:55  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

"An intellectual woman writing about the rights to become a priest... well, this is the greatest irony."

I agree with you but perhaps not for the same reasons!

Phil

9 February 2013 12:01  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

What absolute piffle from you brother. Does the Archbishop know you posted this rot ?

Female propaganda, for that is what she is about, has come on in leaps and bounds over the last forty years. Gone are the days of hairy feminist rants shouting at you from the pages. Subtlety is in. Gentle emasculated clerics like you have no chance, you will be sucked in...

Have you actually thought what a feminised church will be like ? The Women’s Institute at prayer no less. In 20 years, there will be no concept of sin, no emphasis on the sacrifice made by God, not even the image of a man on a cross. The faithful will attend church to see a dolly bird preside over a service that gives God an opportunity to worship US !!

Absolute corruption and Christianity it ain’t....

9 February 2013 12:02  
Blogger Kinderling said...

OiG: Pope Joan may one day become a real celebration in Europe.


Phil: "The message that is clear to me is when you walk away from the Bible. You walk away from God.

The reverse is also true.


...when you walk away from God. You walk away from the Bible?

I can reference the bible like any other Holy Book chronicling their history of their God(s). However, I can't reference their Gods to understand the chronology of the writers.

Hence, only "...when you walk away from the Bible. You walk away from God." is the truth.

9 February 2013 12:26  
Blogger Flossie said...

Apologies to His Grace – I didn’t spot ‘posted by Brother Ivo’ at the bottom. Perhaps HG thought better of unleashing the wrath of opponents of WO once again! )

Thank you Phil for the link, and others who recognise that this is probably the death knell of the Church of England.

I agree that women bishops follow logically on from women priests. But those of us who were around when Synod eventually voted for women’s ordination (by a mere TWO votes) (after the Holy Spirit had got it wrong for the previous 2,000 years) remember the promises made then, and the Act of Synod, without which it would never have got through, and who now feel betrayed by those who readily break those promises in their scramble up what they obviously see as the career ladder. We went along with it on the understanding that an honoured place would always be available for us, and now find that we are misogynists and bigots standing in the way of progress (how familiar this argument sounds – gay bishops anyone?).

What no pro-WO person has ever been able to explain to me, though, is – what is actually wrong with being a woman? Are we in some way deficient, that we have to strive to be more like men, and taking on men’s roles? I see the relationship of Christ to His Church reflected in the human family – the father being the head, the mother the heart. What is the use of two heads but no heart?

9 February 2013 12:50  
Blogger Mike Stallard said...

The methodist church before its untimely demise had women superintendents. The protestants have never been able to see what the fuss was about women.
Ordinary people cannot see why if we can have women in every part of the world we cannot have them in the church too.
So stop blethering on. Take away all the stupid mock catholic clothing, move out of the cold, damp stone buildings and unload all the legal rubbish.
Then, for heaven's sake get out there and do something useful!

9 February 2013 12:54  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Maggi Dawn. On the chance that you are reading this, the Inspector has some advice for a long a happy life.

Not knowing your situation he offers this. Use your womanly bits to attract a man. Marry him and with those same bits raise and care for a family, as God intended for your gender. That should take up much of your time. If you still want to ‘help out’ at the church, there will always be a mop and bucket waiting for you there, dear.

Now, run along sweet thing, and get down to it, so to speak...

Cheery pip !

9 February 2013 13:00  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Mike Stallard:

"The methodist church before its untimely demise had women superintendents."

I'm sure it wasn't your intention but juxtaposing those two aspects of the Methodist church will very likely lead many of the commentators to see a strong correlation.

I'd not go so far myself - the failure of the Methodists was its descent into liberalism to charm the children of the hour but grow no future men and women of Christ. It now reaps that harvest.

Women deacons are both historically and Scripturally sound.

9 February 2013 13:12  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Towards the end of this short book, she explains her own route to ordained ministry which fulfilled the theology she outlines; that nobody arrives at ministry through personal conviction alone but rather through a sense of calling in conjunction with the Church from its separate discernment of vocation.

Except there are objective requirements for the vocation. A subjective sense of "calling" doesn't render moot those objective requirements. This is the original sin of liberal religion - the idea that truth is subjectively or experientially determined.

The CoE is not unable to move "forward" - however that subjective concept might be defined. It has structures that allow a determined minority to protect itself. The CoE graciously offered those opposed to WO the prospect of slow death by asphyxiation. Much to its great shock and annoyance, the CoE found its 'forward' progress stopped. That determined minority had made use of those structures, and refused the offer. Now the CoE is in the process of finding some way to subvert those structures so that it can once again move "forward." At which point it will impose a draconian solution and drive out its minority in the name of "justice" and "equality" and a subjective sense of calling on the part of women. Soon after, it will move "forward" even more when it formally receives a non-celibate homosexual as a bishop.

There has always been an obvious solution to this problem. All that is required is to create separate authority structures. But that solution was never going to be allowed. The "wrong" side would have prospered. Individual parishes would have to be given a choice regarding which side to join. Too many growing stable parishes would have chosen the "backwards" side. "Forward thinking" bishops feared losing that money and the control it represented. In addition, the "forward" side would have collected every advocate of every theological error and innovation known to man. It would have been great entertainment to watch from the outside, but the turmoil and chaos would have driven people right into the stability of the orthodox alternate. The minority had to be brought to heel - preferably without losing the all that parish share ... umm ... laity in the process.

No, from the beginning there was only one possible outcome. A church cannot remain half-orthodox and half-heterodox. One side or the other must eventually be driven out. That much has always been clear. So the question is not so much when the minority will be expunged - it will be - but what fate awaits the CoE when it finally achieves this objective. It won't stop there. The point of moving 'forward' is to keep moving. The CoE may not know where it is going, but it is moving relentlessly in that direction.

carl

9 February 2013 13:41  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Ha ha ha ha ha !!!!

You’ve all been taken in by this child of the devil !

If you look on the right side of Cranmer’s page, you’ll see Cranmer’s unsolicited testimonials. You’ll see one of them is Maggi Dawn. click on her online link. You will then come to her blog site of old. Click on the link for her blog site of new. And there you have it, “sponsored links” or advertising as the Inspector would call it. And look at this gem...

Married But Looking For More? Find Passion, Have An Affair - Join Free

The tart allows that on her site ????

Brother Ivo, you damn cretin. Do your homework in future that man...


9 February 2013 13:49  
Blogger Corrigan said...

@ Mike Stallard

Ordinary people cannot see why if we can have women in every part of the world we cannot have them in the church too.

We do, Mike: they're called nuns.

9 February 2013 13:58  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Mike Stallard

Ordinary people cannot see why if we can have women in every part of the world we cannot have them in the church too.

But then 'ordinary' people also cannot see why we can't have sex with anyone we might prefer, either. Or why 'happiness' shouldn't be the determining factor in an 'ordinary' man's decision to chuck first wife A into the nearest bin for the sake of a relationship with second Wife B. So maybe the opinions of 'ordinary' people aren't the best measure or right and wrong.

carl

9 February 2013 14:10  
Blogger len said...

It is somewhat ironic that whilst the Inspector' rants on 'about women in the church the organisation he belongs to(the Catholic religious system) has deified' Mary'who occupies a position within the Catholic religion equal to Christ.
I expect the irony of the situation totally eludes him as does most things' Christian'.

9 February 2013 16:32  
Blogger Albert said...

A useful comment from Len. It has always struck me as being odd that the Catholic Church is accused of being both institutionally misogynistic and at the same time idolatrous in its attitude to Mary.

9 February 2013 16:35  
Blogger Corrigan said...

I don't suppose it would do any good to explain to len - yet again - that Catholics do not worship Mary or consider her position to be the equal of Christ? No? Didn't think so.

9 February 2013 16:55  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Albert

It has always struck me as being odd that the Catholic Church is accused of being both institutionally misogynistic and at the same time idolatrous in its attitude to Mary.

Well, let's be fair, here. Those criticisms come from different poles and for very different reasons. Liberals dislike the RCC's attitude towards the modern ideal of egalitarianism. Conservative Protestants dislike the elevation of Mary into a functional member of the Trinity. Those two criticisms don't often intersect in the same individual.

carl

9 February 2013 16:55  
Blogger Brother Ivo said...

His Grace is pleased to offer some space on the Internet for discussion, hoping that it shall be a place of interest dialogue and instruction. It was he, who invited Brother Ivo to review Ms Dawn's book and as a humble servant, he accepted.

How clever of Ms Dawn to encourage so many to make her case for her.

Those viscerally opposed to women adopting any role other than submission( something our Arab friends call " Islam") can plainly not co-exist in a Church of England with Women's Ministry and so logically the time to part appears to have come. Hopefully it can be with better grace than is sometimes in evidence.

There is a second debate happening between two visions of " Church".

The Anglican Church has managed to hold Catholic Lutheran and Calvinist together without those factions killing each other as in former times. It is Elizabeth's genius to say she " will not open a window on men's souls". That open model of national Church has served us well and will hopefully survive.

There is another view expressed in the above responses - that of a " gathered Church". - comprising a narrower class of those of closer mind. It is perfectly respectable to be of that view. It is not however " Anglican Mainstream".

Home was once defined as the place that when you turn up " they have to let you in" That is the classic nature of Anglicanism which reflects a passing likeness to the home of the Prodigal son.

9 February 2013 16:56  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Brother Ivo

Oh, you are going to get "a narrower class of those of closer mind" alright. I suggest you saunter over to Thinking Anglicans and take a good hard look. That is the broad church to which you are giving birth.

carl

9 February 2013 17:05  
Blogger Corrigan said...

That open model of national Church has served us well and will hopefully survive.

Right. That's the one that validates whatever you do, or, historically, whatever the British state did.

9 February 2013 17:12  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Brother Ivo, did you think your gushing eulogy for this radical church feminiser would go through without negative comment ?

Have you seen the devils temptation she allows to adorn her site.

And you seriously compare the church’s former role for women in the past as Islamic ???

You Sir, are poor fare. The rest of your twaddle at 16:56 is testimony to that.

There is only one Cranmer, and you do not do him justice. And by no means will you ever, so go, go now and do not return...



9 February 2013 17:15  
Blogger Flossie said...

Submission? Submission? This gives the impression of some grovelling browbeaten skivvies. It is a two-way thing - careful reading of scripture shows that husbands should cherish their wives.

Men and women are different. Oh boy! Must we keep repeating this? They have different roles, neither is of lesser value.

OIG, you shouldn't tease!

9 February 2013 17:27  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Flossie

But we DO cherish our wives. We especially cherish them when they are making us sandwiches.

carl ;)

9 February 2013 17:32  
Blogger Flossie said...

Cheeky!

9 February 2013 18:04  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Flossie. One thinks we can dispense with the ‘brother’ title when addressing this man. You see it, it implies he is a man of God. He is no such thing. He is a man of the latest fashion. It’s girl bishops this year. Some years down the line the fashion will be for homosexual exultation in the church. All part of the plan to remove all traces of masculinity from the CoE. We can only conclude the Jesus chose his men disciples for a purpose. And now mister Ivo is putting right a divine wrong. Breath taking arrogance, don’t you think ?


9 February 2013 18:06  
Blogger non mouse said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9 February 2013 18:18  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Brothe Ivo

Oh dear; we expected so much better.

"Those viscerally opposed to women adopting any role other than submission ..."

Mmmm ... visceral being related to deep inward feelings rather than intellect or theology? Low blow that. You see it as a prejudice?

And then praise for the fudging of Christian doctrine.

"The Anglican Church has managed to hold Catholic Lutheran and Calvinist together without those factions killing each other as in former times."

This is 2013 and the results of this 'via media' are all too apparent. Letting them coexist hasn't been hugely successful. Maybe the time for compromise has passed. It has weakened the Church by failing to offer leadership and permitting too many weird and whacky beliefs.

You think it somehow inappropriate to have a "gathered Church"? A community of believers who share Christian truths in common? Why have you suggested traditionalists are "a narrower class of those of closer mind"? Just what is "Anglican Mainstream"?

Anglicanism has to let everybody in, does it? And then through its democratic structures, properly used, reflect every modern twist and turn and condone all sorts of unchristian behaviours in the nation?

That's not how I understand the repentance of the Prodigal Son who returned humbled to His Father's House.

9 February 2013 18:29  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Inspector

Good Lord, Sir! You are quite right about this Maggi Dawn.

A link to a site that brags:

" ... we have been providing a meeting place for like-minded married and attached people for nearly 10 years. Our members have one thing in common - they are all looking for a little romance outside their current relationship. Whether that's the occasional bit of flirtatious chat, a regular coffee date, or a full-blown affair, that's up to them.

Illicit Encounters prides itself in creating a non-judgemental, no-pressure environment for our members."


Just like the modern Church of England, what.

9 February 2013 18:40  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Ps

I did notice a link to a dating site for the over 50's that you might want to check out.

9 February 2013 18:45  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

By gad, that bird, have you ever seen anything like it on a supposedly holy woman's site !

Women eh ?

And she wants to be a BISHOP, resulting from a false idea that God has called her.

She is nothing but an over educated silly thing...


9 February 2013 18:46  
Blogger Sister Tiberia said...

If anyone is actually interested in the for/against arguments about women's ordination, this is an interesting site.

http://questionsfromaewe.blogspot.co.uk/

Bear in mind that the writer is in no way unbiased, but it's the fullest list of arguments and responses I've seen on the subject.

It isn't a subject I personally feel strongly about either way, so I shall sit back at this point and let the discussion proceed :)

9 February 2013 19:05  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Anonymous In B said @13:12; the failure of the Methodists was its descent into liberalism to charm the children of the hour
Well spoken,for that is precisely the so called march of progress whereby we are expected to encompass the latest expressions of modernism and liberality.

9 February 2013 19:11  
Blogger non mouse said...

Thank you Brother Ivo. From Yale's website I see that we speak of Dr. Dawn (BA, MA, PhD: Cantab). Her thoughts on Coleridge's "Rime," then are surely thoughtful and well-informed about the poem's Judaeo-Christian imagery, as well as possible allegorical applications.

Dawn is also musically inclined. She may well have special insights to offer on the following stanzas about re-inspirited travellers or pilgrims:
'I fear thee, ancient Mariner!'
Be calm, thou Wedding-Guest:
'Twas not those souls that fled in pain,
Which to their corses came again,
But a troop of spirits blest: (350)

For when it dawn'd—they dropp'd their arms,
And cluster'd round the mast;
Sweet sounds rose slowly through their mouths,
And from their bodies pass'd.

Around, around, flew each sweet sound, (355)
Then darted to the Sun;
Slowly the sounds came back again,
Now mix'd, now one by one.


Something in the good Dr’s biography may also resonate with the poem. The following also has topical applications:
I pass, like night, from land to land;
I have strange power of speech;
That moment that his face I see,
I know the man that must hear me: (590)
To him my tale I teach.

What loud uproar bursts from that door!
The wedding-guests are there:
But in the garden-bower the bride
And bride-maids singing are: (595)
And hark the little vesper bell,
Which biddeth me to prayer!


And here:
He prayeth best, who loveth best (615)
All things both great and small;
For the dear God who loveth us,
He made and loveth all.'


Er... men as well as women, one trusts.


Cont’d...

9 February 2013 19:12  
Blogger non mouse said...

Cont'd...
And though the following may reflect the dynamics of Dawn’s own decision-making, there is something chilling about the more general application of this:
The Mariner, whose eye is bright,
Whose beard with age is hoar,(620)
Is gone: and now the Wedding-Guest
Turn'd from the bridegroom's door.

He went like one that hath been stunn'd,
And is of sense forlorn:
A sadder and a wiser man(625)
He rose the morrow morn.


Based on possibilities like those mentioned above, Dawn's work sounds interesting. I would also like to hear her speak: even in Church, though not as a feminist, a priest, or a bishop. That’s because I don't see why women can't be who and what we are, without trying to be men, or to usurp their roles; God gave us our own parts to play.

However, while the female jobs defined by such as the Inspector are of primary importance, there's no reason why our talents cannot be employed in other fields. After all, when we were a warrior society whose men were at war and/or injured, somebody had to run the estates, schools/abbeys ('hospitals'), etc. The examples of Hilda of Whitby and Margaret Beaufort spring to mind: women were often very powerful, and sometimes to good effect. That’s probably why, nowadays, females with powerful minds make less capable people nervous.

So I believe Dawn could be very wise to back off, and to apply that mind in settings where it is already welcome. We'll see what happens.

9 February 2013 19:16  
Blogger non mouse said...

PS: I shan't be reading the websites, Inspector! I'll take your word for it... certainly they are unsuitable for the background the Dr. is leaving behind.

One is a little concerned about the, shall we say "strength of the 'post-modern' influences" that might be at work in her new context.

9 February 2013 19:32  
Blogger Brother Ivo said...

Brother Dodo,

If you read my response carefully you will see no lack of respect.

A " gathered church" is one of close ( nb not " closed" ) minds - those holding to a very similar reading of the Bible. That is a different though no less honourable approach than the " broad Church" I have described.

I simply say that rightly or wrongly, Anglicanism has been one capable of encompassing much theological breadth. Some value it, others do not.

Brother Ivo hopes to write another time on the history of the many " ways of reading" the Bible all of which claimed to be the " one true way " of reading a plain text that only a fool or a knave would disagree with.

9 February 2013 19:40  
Blogger Dave Roberts said...

WOW! I cannot believe some of the ungracious and/or vitriolic comments made here, which have nothing to do with robust theological discussion or reflection...
Some people here really need to get a grip, repent and apologise to Maggi for what they have said...
As for Maggi, keep doing what you are doing, as far as I am concerned! It is only a matter of time before there will be female bishops in the Church of England...

9 February 2013 19:49  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Her new page is all adverts for dating, Christian dating, over 50s, sex, free Arab dating, Lesbian dating. Dating & Social Networking, India personals & Chat Indian Lovers Passions...
She must be a bit of a loose woman by the look of her new site.
There is even a link for www,cougarlife.com dating for older women.

9 February 2013 19:56  
Blogger Flossie said...

I don't see any need to attack Maggi Dawn. She is doing what she thinks is right according to her lights. There is no reason to think that she is not a good and Godly woman. I don't intend to read her website or the book, because I don't see the need as I know I shan't agree with her.

I have said before on different threads that I personally know two ordained women quite well - good, wonderful, warm women - and they are doing a marvellous job and are loved by their congregations. I just cannot regard them as priests, as they cannot be, any more than they can be fathers.

9 February 2013 20:09  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Does one detects a certain tone in your response Mr Ivor?

A certain distain for authoritative teachings? Being taught what one must believe, not to your liking? Dogma and doctrines, developed and established by great men and true within the Church for over 2000 years. Council upon Council resolving harmful theological disputes when necessary, or declaring a Biblical Truth revealed to it. A process charged to the Church by Jesus Christ, with His promise of the Holy Spirit to guide and protect it.

Now to disagree with one's bother in Christ is no sin. To accept that both may be right over fundamental opinion, is foolish avoidance. A "he believes this and I believe that, we are all sinners" approach, is grave negligence on the part of the Shepherds.

Offer outreach, evangelise and make Parish Churches sources of support in local communities. Be welcoming to all. Show the love of Christ. However, not at the expense of a clear teaching of the message of Christ and its implications.

One did pick up too on your careful use of words. Behind these the clear message was: traditionalists are old-fashioned, sentimentalists; if they cannot move with modern developments in the church, leave. Modern Anglicanism has left the past behind - another, broader and wider 'via media' lies ahead.

9 February 2013 20:10  
Blogger Flossie said...

And the same applies to Brother Ivo! The name-callers are not covering themselves in glory!

9 February 2013 20:10  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Marie

LOL!

You get in there, gal!

9 February 2013 20:11  
Blogger Albert said...

Carl,

Liberals dislike the RCC's attitude towards the modern ideal of egalitarianism. Conservative Protestants dislike the elevation of Mary into a functional member of the Trinity. Those two criticisms don't often intersect in the same individual.

It's all degrees within error, as far as I am concerned! :-)

9 February 2013 20:14  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Ms Tiberia said...

"If anyone is actually interested in the for/against arguments about women's ordination, this is an interesting site ....

It isn't a subject I personally feel strongly about either way, so I shall sit back at this point and let the discussion proceed :)"


The issue has been authoritatively closed in the Roman Catholic Church. So, of course, as a faithful member, you accept its settled and don't need to feel strongly. You would not defy the Pope by speaking in favour of women priests and attempt to build up a ground swell

.

So why publish a link that seeks to undermine Catholic teaching. A poor and biased set of arguments, in my opinion. They key is the over simplified use of the term 'sensus fidelium' - the internal protestant's weapon of choice.

9 February 2013 20:23  
Blogger Albert said...

Brother Ivo,

The Anglican Church has managed to hold Catholic Lutheran and Calvinist together without those factions killing each other as in former times. It is Elizabeth's genius to say she " will not open a window on men's souls". That open model of national Church has served us well and will hopefully survive.

Except of course that Elizabeth I was guilty of the single greatest act of religious violence in English history (committed against Catholics, of course). So what you say is like saying Stalin brought all the factions together. Of course he did, anyone who resisted (and quite a few who didn't), he killed.

Those viscerally opposed to women adopting any role other than submission( something our Arab friends call " Islam")

Am I misunderstanding you here? You're sounding like the proponents of gay marriage. That is simply not an adequate description of those who oppose women's 'ordination'. Remember: whatever their faults, they are those whom Christ has made your brothers and sisters through baptism.

can plainly not co-exist in a Church of England with Women's Ministry and so logically the time to part appears to have come.

I am amazed that more Anglicans cannot see in this, the mortal danger to their ecclesial community. Anglicanism claims to justify its separation from Catholicism on the basis of sufficiency of scripture. Women's 'ordination' cannot be demonstrated on those terms (the CofE admits this), therefore the CofE cannot impose women's 'ordination' without cutting off the branch it is sitting on. That it doesn't care shows it has ceased to be classically Protestant.

9 February 2013 20:24  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Poor Brother Ivo.

The honeymoon didn't last too long, did it? Try as I might, I haven't found this website of Maggi Dawn's. I will say, however, that ads on websites are often context sensitive. When I visit Ugley Vicar for example, I often see an ad for a church in a city near where I live - in the United States. I have often wondered if the ads we observe say more about our own web habits then the weblog we visit.

Just sayin ...

carl

9 February 2013 20:26  
Blogger Sister Tiberia said...

Bear in mind that the debate in this article, Dodo, is about the Anglican church. I clearly stated that the writer of the blog quoted is not unbiased, but that it is a full list of the current arguments, for and against.

In the Roman Catholic Church it is a subject I am content to leave to the Holy Spirit. If at some time in the future it is the will of the Holy Spirit that women shall be ordained, then that will happen. If it is not, then it will not. Men come and go, even Popes come and go, but the Spirit is eternal.

9 February 2013 20:28  
Blogger Albert said...

Sister Tiberia,

it is a full list of the current arguments, for and against.

Not really, it is a list of straw men (or women). Rather ironic given the constant reference to the 8th Commandment!

9 February 2013 20:32  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Ms Tiberias said ...

"Men come and go, even Popes come and go, but the Spirit is eternal.

Indeed and, as one Roman Catholic to another, so is His unerring Truth revealed to the Church, as reflected in Her infallible dogma and doctrines.

Trust you agree.

9 February 2013 20:43  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Ps

"If at some time in the future it is the will of the Holy Spirit that women shall be ordained, then that will happen."

Now that's quite right. However, how will the Holy Spirit's will be determined? Through the Magisterium or through an uprising justified by 'sensus fidelium'?

9 February 2013 20:47  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Carl

The links on Maggi Dawn's are links and not cookies. She is facilitating access to a site that encourages and celebrates adultery.

Astonishing.

9 February 2013 20:50  
Blogger Sister Tiberia said...

One remembers that even the concept of Papal Infallibility is a relatively recent dogma, passed at the First Vatican Council of 1869–1870. Prior to that, it was even considered to be a heresy. The following is quoted from a site on Orthodox Christianity but the facts are verified on other sites.

"One of the most popular catechisms circulating in 19th century England was the Controversial Catechism by the Reverend Stephen Keenan. The one I have is the third edition of 1854, published by Marsh and Beattie of Edinburgh and Charles Dolman of London and Manchester. On page 112 we find the following question and answer:

Q: Must not Catholics believe the Pope in himself to be infallible?

A: This is a Protestant invention; it is no article of the Catholic faith; no decision of his can oblige, under pain of heresy, unless it be received and enforced by the teaching body; that is, by the bishops of the Church." This catechism carries the enthusiastic approbation of four Roman Catholic bishops."

It has pleased the Holy Spirit to permit the Holy Father to speak infallibly "when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church"

I was amused to see that Wikipedia quotes two popes' comments on the subject as the following. "In July 2005 Pope Benedict XVI stated during an impromptu address to priests in Aosta that: "The Pope is not an oracle; he is infallible in very rare situations, as we know". His predecessor Pope John XXIII once remarked: "I am only infallible if I speak infallibly but I shall never do that, so I am not infallible"



9 February 2013 20:54  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Bro Ivo

In your prodigal son analogy I wondered who in your mind played who.

Did you cast the liberals as the older prideful brother? No

The younger one then? No

No the liberal Anglican Church, in your mind, is the father who is God in the parable.

In your house Bro, we will be welcome only if we play by your rules. That is affirming WB, Gay sex etc etc.

In the parable, the welcome of the father is unconditional.

You don't like it but for your parable to work that also includes us who believe the bible Bro!

Without conditions.

Do you know who I see in that parable Bro? You are the elder (Prideful) brother who wants to let us stay only if we abide by your rules.

Phil




9 February 2013 21:13  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Dodo

OK, so I finally found the webpage in question. The links change every time you refresh the page. It's an ad service of some sort. She didn't select those specific links. You can criticize her for using that ad service perhaps. But you might should hear a defense first.

carl

9 February 2013 21:17  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Ms Tiberias

I see you are familiar with a book non-Catholic polemicists frequently use in an attempt to topple the Papacy.

It was a product of its time. The Bishops were responding to misconceptions of the papacy regarding secular power. The Keenan catechism was responding to “Protestant inventions” regarding papal infallibility.

Some of these inventions included:
- The Pope is separated from the Church when exercising infallibility;
- The Pope’s infallibility permits him to depose rulers;
- Every decision of the Pope is infallible;
- Bishops can never share in the same infallibility possessed by the Pope.

We see these errors repeatedly raised.

The Protestant misconception of papal infallibility was so skewed at the time as to threaten the safe existence of Catholics in Britain.

The Bishops wrote attempting to acquire full equal rights for Catholics. It was only in 1829 that Britain passed the Catholic Emancipation Act.

You will know about 'Cisalpinism',

" ... a movement amongst English Roman Catholics arguing that Catholicism, while not rejecting the supreme teaching authority of the Pope, should not be based on his dominance.

This non-authoritarian view of Catholicism was common in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, and stressed the English as well as the Roman dimension to the Roman Catholic Church in England, particularly in the sense of allegiance to the Crown as symbol of the liberties of Englishmen not being incompatible with allegiance to the Pope as guarantee of authentic Christian teaching.

Cisalpinism supposedly sought accommodation of the English Roman Catholic Church within the Protestant State in the 18th century, when the Penal Laws persecuting the Catholic Church were still in place."


9 February 2013 21:27  
Blogger Sister Tiberia said...

Indeed, Dodo, which is why I was pleased to see the quotes from our current Pope and Blessed John XXIII specifically limiting the concept of infallibility, something it seems that every generation seems to need reminding of :)

In answer to your earlier question "How will the Holy Spirit's will be determined? Through the Magisterium or through an uprising justified by 'sensus fidelium'?" I would not dream of even guessing an answer. The Spirit moves as the Spirit wills.

9 February 2013 21:34  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Carl

Okay, we'll give her the benefit of the doubt. I mean, she is a woman, poor thing, and can't possibly be expected to be aware of the immorality her blog is promoting. She's there to spread God's love - who has time for all this advertising stuff? And, she has to choose her outfits, keep that hair style in check and apply make-up.

9 February 2013 21:36  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9 February 2013 21:42  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

For goodness sake, Dodo, all I said was let the woman offer a defense. To be honest, I have seen some questionable advertisements on Cranmer's Weblog. If you are going to make an issue of this, at least be consistent.

carl

9 February 2013 21:42  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Well, there you have it Ms Tiberias!

The indefectibility of the Catholic Church and the fact it cannot contradict itself by switching and changing its doctrines. This issue of women priests is closed - really. The Holy Spirit has revealed the Truth and isn't about to change His mind to suit modern notions of equality.

Just remember the long history of the Catholic Church, attended by schism and heresy. But each attack has only strengthened it. It has continued to live and spread in spite of everything and everybody.

9 February 2013 21:45  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Ah Carl, the Cranmer adds are triggered by cookies from sites visited from your computer. Not the same thing.

Why are you being so forgiving? Is it 'cos she's a woman?

9 February 2013 21:48  
Blogger Sister Tiberia said...

As you know, Dodo, the Church has a long history of the heretic of one century being the saint of the next :)

What we all forget is that changes in the Church happen in God's time, not ours.

9 February 2013 21:48  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Example, please?

The sinner of one century, yes. But a declared heretic becoming rehabilitated and canonised?

9 February 2013 21:50  
Blogger Sister Tiberia said...

Mother Mary MacKillop, also known as St. Mary of the Cross, R.S.J., was excommunicated in 1871 for her outcry against pedophile priests. In October, 2010 Pope Benedict XVI canonized her as a saint and named her the patron saint of abuse victims.

9 February 2013 21:54  
Blogger steve thack said...

'the church can't move forwards or backwards' well obviously! Bishops only move diagonally! I'll get my coat! Ps before anyone acuses me of not taking this debate seriously - too damn right im not most of the above comments don't deserve reading let alone a serious response

9 February 2013 21:57  
Blogger Sister Tiberia said...

Joan of Arc was also convicted of heresy :)

9 February 2013 21:57  
Blogger Brother Ivo said...

BrotherPhil,

I offer no self serving interpretation of the parable.

Like the thief on the cross it reminds one of a generosity of love beyond ordinary hope and expectation.

The Anglican Church in which I believe has the same capacity to welcome back the lost to the surprise of the returnee and the more disapproving bystanders.

9 February 2013 21:59  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

This woman Maggi Dawn is an internet whore. She takes advertising money from concerns that would wreck a marriage. And yet where is the condemnation from the protestants so posting here.

And as for you Carl, you should be ashamed of yourself. There is a defence ?

9 February 2013 22:03  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Dodo

Why are you being so forgiving? Is it 'cos she's a woman?

Well, it's either because she is a woman, or because I think people should be allowed to offer a defense before they get boiled in oil. I'm pretty sure it's one of those two options.

But mostly it's because she hasn't been treated very well on this thread. We were immediately off to "Look! She supports immorality! Why, that says all we need to know about WO!" It would have been nice to focus on the subject instead of this needless polemic distraction.

carl

9 February 2013 22:05  
Blogger NamronMit said...

There are a lot of negative comments about how a church that involves women would turn out. There are a lot of comments in complete disagreement.

Yet, any church that does not have a role for women is not running as it should be. I am not talking about them being bishops or priests, but I am talking about the valuable role that they play as members of the congregation.

Arguably, Bishops and Priests play a too politicized role, one that could easily be filled by women. However, the male preachers role should be about preaching, which is expertly and equally supplemented with the work of women in the church.

Women are important.

9 February 2013 22:10  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

And OIG arrives right on cue to make my point. Threads like this make me cringe. You just don't seem to realize how badly you are presenting yourselves. All we are lacking is the contribution of She Whose Name Must Not Be Spoken.

carl

9 February 2013 22:11  
Blogger Flossie said...

Women ARE important, NamromMit - the church cannot function without them. I don't mean just for arranging the flowers and making the coffee (as some of the WATCH women would have you think is what we are saying). Generally speaking women's pastoral skills are better than men's, and the role of deaconess seems eminently suitable.

I do believe Jesus chose 12 men for a very good reason. We only see the situation from our own perspective, in our own time and in our own culture, where their successors, the bishops, live a relatively cushy and comfortable life, but the 12 all died horrible deaths, and in some parts of the world today, bishops live with constant threat of being killed. Is it not likely that this is not the role God wants for women? Who would look after the children?

9 February 2013 22:24  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Ooooo ... now there's a swipe at at all those outside of the "broad church" "Anglican Mainstream"!

"Bystanders" being all those outside of this.

I actually believe we're talking at cross purposes. I'm proposing the retention of firm and clear teachings that are
clearly biblical. Yes, they're traditional and may act to exclude those outside the Church if strictly expressed. The way of evangelising has to change and adapt to today's situation. However, this should not mean abandoning eternal truths concerning human life, marriage and sexuality.

The issues are the same as in all times. How does the Church reach out to sinners or to those ignorant about Christ? How does the Church spread the Christian and defend the Christian message?

The Prodigal's son's father did what all father's try to do. Love unconditionally - but developing a sense of the acceptable and unacceptable.

The Father waited on his son to realise where he belonged. The son had to realise this himself, repent of his errors and turn back towards his Father's house.

The prodigal was wiser than his elder brother because he had tasted the drug of rebellion and sin, yet found the strength to overcome. The elder brother did not understand his younger brother. The two can learn from one another.

9 February 2013 22:27  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Carl, It would have been nice to focus on the subject instead of this needless polemic distraction.

The subject is Maggi Dawn, it’s in the title of the missal. She is considered as a package, book and all. Part of her stinks. Now let’s hear it from you, “Part of her stinks”.

9 February 2013 22:32  
Blogger NamronMit said...

I completely agree with you with the idea of deacons, and that bishops face the threat of death in various place across the world. And this is a problem that is only getting worse.

I certainly would not want my mother, nor my sisters or girlfriend suffering in the ways that many do.

Arguably, however, it is necessary to make the church less about politics and comfortable debates about theology, because if that was all it was about then women could do it as well as men. Preaching to the people is what it needs to be about.

9 February 2013 22:32  
Blogger Flossie said...

Also, I am sorry to say this, but by their own admission ordained women have a lower doctrinal and moral standard than men (Mind of Anglicans Survey 2002). This is not an insult, it is just the way we are wired. More sympathetic and empathetic, if you like.

You only need to read the websites of revisionist pressure groups such as Ekklesia, Thinking Anglicans, Inclusive Church, WATCH, Affirming Catholicism, Modern Church Persons Union (or whatever they call themselves these days)to see that they know they need women bishops to facilitate the appointment of openly gay bishops more easily.

9 February 2013 22:34  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

OIG

The subject is Maggi Dawn

No, the subject of this thread is (or at least should be) a book she wrote and the ideas contained therein.

Now let’s hear it from you

No, OIG, I'm not calling "Fire for Effect" on anyone based on the evidence presented herein. I don't know how those advertisements got there. Neither do you. I do know that I have seen advertisements on Cranmer in support of Obama's election, and in support of Gay marriage, and for homosexual dating services. If Dodo is right, and those ads were triggered by cookies, then I could have seen them from something as innocent as visiting "Thinking Anglicans" - which I do periodically for my sins. There is more to this than you desire to be the case.

And you are going to feel mighty silly if she comes on this board and provides a coherent explanation.

carl

9 February 2013 22:44  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

She's plugging her book or rather Brother Ivo is on her behalf. maybe this isn't the site to do it? Or I rather think she is attempting to broadcast her arguments in order to try and convince traditionalists here.
I'm not in favour of WO for the same reasons others here have already stated. Some things require change and to move on, such as engineering, innovation, business, manufacturing, banking, the Church does not. It supposed to be the rock we stand on. People look to the Church for guidance and stability in their lives and moral guidance, if the Church morals change then there is no foothold anymore and we sink as a nation. I see all the ladies still attending Church where I am with the woman vicar (she's an alpha female type, high flyer with a top of the range low slung sports car fast tracking her way to the top) they are not keen on her and still quite haven't got to grips with the idea of a female after having a male vicar. I doubt they ever will understand.
Their hearts are no longer in it and they are not involved anymore with the other church activities. They hide from her when she calls round to their houses. Feminism isn't for the Church. I guess Maggi Dawn will wait for the older generations to die off then whoosh her and her fellow female monsters will be in there taking over from the cowardly males who allowed this nonsense. Only there wont be much of a congregation left anyway.

9 February 2013 22:45  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

There is a link on the left “dating for marriage” which when you click on it brings you to
http://maggidawn.com/
married wife dating and Russian brides links amongst others. I've never looked at anything like these and its been years since I looked at a singles dating site so I don't think it's tailored to what one has been looking at.

9 February 2013 22:57  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Flossie

You have revealed the 'seducer's' insight into the greatest strength and greatest weakness of women.

"ordained women", I'd say all women, "have a lower doctrinal and moral standard than men (Mind of Anglicans Survey 2002). This is not an insult, it is just the way we are wired. More sympathetic and empathetic, if you like."

Learn how to play with the compassionate nature of a woman and all things become possible. And once women learn how to play the game back, and they have, things get messy.

Let this spirit take a grip in a Church and the dye is set.

9 February 2013 22:58  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Marie

If you're innocent in these matters me lass, best stay clear. You'd be alarmed and distressed by internet developments in recent years. Look how your visits to the TH site troubled you. Your disposition is too sensitive.

9 February 2013 23:03  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Marie

There is nothing in that website at all. It is just a bunch of empty links that all point back to the home directory. I suspect it hasn't even been set up yet.

Which might explain a lot.

carl

9 February 2013 23:07  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Carl
"And you are going to feel mighty silly if she comes on this board and provides a coherent explanation."

Well it wont be an entirely new experience for any of us who post regularly on here to look silly, regardless of how we "feel". We all have; including you; and, extremely occasionally, hardly ever, our host.

You always see the best in women Carl and defend their honour and virtue. You are a gentleman - towards ladies. Show, maybe, the same compassion towards men.

9 February 2013 23:13  
Blogger NamronMit said...

I feel like there is to much focus on a patronizing put down of women here.

Women have a different role, a role that cannot be fulfilled by men, within the church. However, to describe them as soft, weak, or easily exploitable is simply not true.

Both intellectually and in their commitment to God, women are equal. Men and women simply have slightly different parts to play in the church.

9 February 2013 23:17  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Flossie at 22:34. Hear hear that gal.

Carl. And you are going to feel mighty silly if she comes on this board and provides a coherent explanation.

Now look. If you feel important enough to decide you need a website AND carry advertising with it, you will no doubt visit said site daily. Need more be said. She knows what is advertised under her name.

Can’t you see it man ? She is nothing but some over educated shallow woman who does not put the flock first, but her own human ambitions. She is weak, weaker than the rest of us who see through her...

From the Inspector General. (Don’t forget, if you are after an extra marital screw, come to him first. Would be cheaper than arranging it through Maggi Dawn’s people, probably)


9 February 2013 23:47  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Marie. Bless you for your common sense. The CoE will not go mad with types like you around...

9 February 2013 23:50  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Dodo

Fully 20 comments on this thread have been about nothing. Someone followed a link to another link, and found a barely-constructed website. A website containing context-sensitive advertisements, no less. (They are context sensitive. I saw an ad for finding poetry in my home state. You think that was coincidence?) Without any actual investigation of said website, judgments were made about Maggi Dawn based upon those context sensitive ads. And suddenly people are calling for the 'Scarlet A' to be branded on her head.

She on this very thread has been called a 'tart', a 'supposedly holy woman', a 'bit of a loose woman' and an 'internet whore.' She has been accused of purveying 'the devil's temptations' and taking 'advertising money from concerns that would wreck a marriage.' You yourself said (and I quote):

She is facilitating access to a site that encourages and celebrates adultery.

And it was all built on sand. This is when OIG should feel small and petty. This is when you should be embarrassed for the part you played. You slandered her character on the basis of nothing more than a cursory glance at a webpage. And then you tell me to:

Show, maybe, the same compassion towards men.

Go and ponder your own behavior.

carl

9 February 2013 23:56  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


NamronMit. Both intellectually and in their commitment to God, women are equal.

Look son, with all due respect, you are a student according to your site. Now, that means you learn from types older and more experienced than you. It’s not the other way around.

Savvy ?

9 February 2013 23:57  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


I say Dodo, Carl has rolled over and exposed his soft parts all in defence of Maggi Dawn. Do you think he recognises in her, her pre-destination to heaven.

What !


10 February 2013 00:03  
Blogger NamronMit said...

Office of Inspector General

I am a student, I continue to learning from people who are wiser than myself, that is very true.

It is also apparent that many have stopped learning, have closed their minds to how the world actually works. I have not closed my eyes.

Women are equal in their commitment to God. To question that is to question their very presence in Christianity itself.

10 February 2013 00:03  
Blogger NamronMit said...

*learn (My spelling is what I need to work on, not my knowledge of my faith.)

10 February 2013 00:04  
Blogger David Keen said...

From my limited understanding of the internet, the ads you come across on a site are not down to the host, but are based on what the web thinks the visitor wants to see. So if you're seeing dating sites, it's probably because your personal browsing history points towards this as an area of 'interest'. What adverts you find on Maggi Dawns website tell us more about you than about her. If you find 'immorality' on a website, you've probably brought it with you.

10 February 2013 00:11  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

OIG

rolled over and exposed his soft parts

And here I thought I was just defended the unjustly accused from the unjust accusation that had been hurled against her character.

carl

10 February 2013 00:23  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


NamronMit, good for you Sir. As a young man the Inspector kept both ears open and his mouth firmly shut. And just look at him now !

David Keen. One really does believe you have limited understanding of the internet.

10 February 2013 00:25  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Carl, if you give permission for an advertising agency to erect a billboard on your house, and said bill board informs all who are married that they can enjoy some extra marital “how’s you father”, according to your logic, you are as pure as the driven snow...

10 February 2013 00:30  
Blogger NamronMit said...

I am not going to be silenced because I am young. The youth of the church is the rising generation, the group that is pushing forward for revival and renewal.

We are not the silent generation, nor should we want to be.

A women's faith is equal to a man's faith. A young person saved means as much as an older person saved.

10 February 2013 00:34  
Blogger NamronMit said...

In addition, I am also a web developer, not only a student. I do understand the internet.

David Keen is right.

10 February 2013 00:35  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Inspector
One believes Carl likes to play the part of the protective 'daddy' towards the fairer sex.

Usually is he is so judgemental.

Namron
Read some of your blogs. You have quite a lot to learn. Not to worry, Jesus does welcome children into His Kingdom. Now, do remember the commandment to honour your parents. This applies to all older people, you know.

10 February 2013 01:51  
Blogger non mouse said...

The rush to Judge -- how does that relate to the rush to Judgement? Several here could rush to quote the Book on that, no doubt.

Some, less hasty, may even know where to look to find the story of Martha and Mary (OK: Luke 10:48-32). This is not irrelevant to discussions of a woman's role. Some females have minds and choose to apply them to Christ's welfare and doctrine. They are as well equipped as men quaerere verum - in the halls of academe or at Christ's feet.

So, well said, NamronMit!
"A women's faith is equal to a man's faith. A young person saved means as much as an older person saved." Indeed, that seems one possible interpretation of a stanza I quoted earlier from Coleridge's "Rime...":

He prayeth best, who loveth best (615)
All things both great and small;
For the dear God who loveth us,
He made and loveth all.'


This works well with Dr. Dawn's book-title. Along with the words of F.W.Faber's hymn, it presumably reflects something of her viewpoint:

There's a wideness in God's Mercy
LIKE THE WIDENESS OF THE SEA;
There's a kindness in His Justice,
Which is more than liberty.
There is welcome for the sinner,
And more graces for the good;
There is mercy with the Savior;
There is healing in His blood.
...
For the love of God is broader
Than the measure of man's mind;
And the heart of the Eternal
Is most wonderfully kind.
If our love were but more faithful,
We should take Him at His Word;
And our life would be thanksgiving
For the goodness of the Lord.



10 February 2013 01:56  
Blogger non mouse said...

And, Your Grace - If I may express appreciation, for a moment, to NamronMit:
It gladdens the heart (and mind) when students think outside the little plastic boxes that inhibit others! It's also good to see, as part of that, how you eschew the technique of polarisation that causes so much damage to Christianity and our culture.

So many rise to, or even set, the bait of fragmentation, like that which surfaces here. Examples include: Men/Women; RC/Protestant; Atheist/Christian; Youth/Age; Irish/UK; Left/Right; Ancient/Modern. And then the feeding frenzy begins. Debate/Debait.

So I say, "Thank you for seeking a balanced view as you follow your quest for learning." Of course, limited as we are while 'in earth,' some of us cannot cease in that quest: it's by way of a pilgrimage.

From her choice of imagery, one imagines Dr. Dawn could be such a person.

10 February 2013 02:16  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Dodo

One believes Carl likes to play the part of the protective 'daddy' towards the fairer sex.

That's an interpretation. It's somewhat self-serving. It shows absolutely no evidence of reflection or introspection. But it's an interpretation. A better one might be that I wanted to differentiate myself from the type of argument you were presenting because it was manifestly unjust. Now, you can accept that judgment, and take some responsibility for your actions. Or you and OIG can back-slap each other and pretend you didn't make first rate asses of yourselves.

Either way, the truth is still obvious.

carl

10 February 2013 02:23  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Judges 4:4-5 - The Song of Deborah is always worth a look too.

The reality is that there is no more a one-fits-all "Biblical Woman" any more than a "Biblical Man". What there is, though, is a consistent call to honour God, which for the most part can be fulfilled in equal measure by all Image Bearers, whether they are male or female.

Much of the "gender-relations" stuff in the New Testament hinges on profound, enduring, and sincere respect between men and women. As Christians we should expect to be (and able to be) vulnerable to one another, without barriers, without division, without offense. It is our very vulnerability to each other and to God that allows Him to work His Grace in us: we cannot know His Will unless we are submissive to His Sovereignty.

I make no pointed claim that this privileges or refutes any particular claim to the role of men or women in the Church, or to who is gifted with ministries to its service. It's simply to point out where we should start from - and it's not a start point that is compatible with claiming either the fundamental inferiority of our sisters in Christ.

Personally, I fall towards a conservative understanding of female ministry, with reservations about the compatibility of the actions and philosophy of many actual female priests/pastors etc. But on the other hand, I've never been verbally slapped in the face over and over again by arrogant men who evince nothing of gentility, respect, and, frankly, chivalry.

10 February 2013 02:26  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Brother Ivo

"The Anglican Church in which I believe has the same capacity to welcome back the lost etc..."

No one could disagree with this.

It is just not happening.

Statistically it is not the liberal left of the Church that is welcoming back the most.

When WB and Gay B have been appointed the result is very rapid decline.

This is not welcoming back anyone. It is driving them away.

Phil


10 February 2013 02:54  
Blogger Pedant said...

So why didn't she become a nun?

10 February 2013 03:04  
Blogger Bishop Alan Wilson said...

Many thanks for a wise thoughtful and realistic review of an honest personal testimony. Some comment above, sadly, demonstrates why it is so difficult to deal with this subject — you can't argue with incomprehension or a sneer...

10 February 2013 06:28  
Blogger Battersea Boy said...

"A new commandment I give unto you, that ye should love one another as I have loved you."

"See how these Christians love one another."

Having read some of the vitriol that has been poured out in the comments above by people whose understanding of the holy scriptures and early church practice is clearly different to my own, I find myself expressing very similar emotions to those my Lord and Saviour gave vent to in John 11:35.

10 February 2013 08:07  
Blogger len said...

The response of (some) Catholics posters is somewhat like 'Mr Burns'(of the Simpsons)when he issues the order to "release the dogs".

"Who let the dogs out" also comes to mind.

Blimey Maggie Dawn don`t even think of going near a Catholic religious
centre they will tear you to pieces and all that' bowing and scrapin'` to the statue of Mary (what`s all that about anyway.

'Headship' does not give anyone the right to dominate or denigrate the role of Women in the church, I am appalled at some of the remarks by some[ allegedly ] 'Christian' posters

And of course the male dominated Catholic religious system has done such a 'good job of presenting the male as a perfect role model to all and sundry?.Not... cases of abuse are still coming to light and will probably continue to do so.The Catholic response to women seem to be'if they want to' do God' shut them away in a nunnery?.

Men and women (in the eyes of God at least) are equal but have different roles to play...the male is not 'superior' to the female but has a different role to play.I can only assume that the' headship issue' dates back to the 'Garden of Eden'when the Women was deceived but the Man was not.The woman was deceived into disobeying God but the man chose to 'side with the woman'because his love for her was greater than the desire to obey God.

But....the fact that man CAN be deceived is apparent in some of the religious systems today.. Catholic and Protestant... when man relies on his own 'wisdom' rather than God`s.






10 February 2013 08:27  
Blogger Flossie said...

Bravo young NamronMit for not instantly labelling us traddies, as so many have done, as knuckle-dragging Neanderthals. It is a shame that some of the comments here have descended into personal abuse of Ms Dawn when the thread could have, and should have, been used to educate and inform. You will probably realise that our reasons for opposing WO are principled and theologically sound, not the blind prejudice that so many people think.

You must also understand the reasons for a lot of the anger. Many of us will be unchurched by the innovation of women bishops. The ‘flying bishops’ system worked surprisingly well, but the way things are going at the moment it is highly probable that women bishops will be forced upon us with no proper provision. So where do we go? And really, why should we, when scripture, tradition and reason are on our side?

One of the roles of a bishop is to hand on the faith to the next generation, AS RECEIVED, not tinkered with to suit their own ideas. I personally am disgusted with the recent vote from the House of Bishops which was nearly unanimous and smacked of gerrymandering. It is apparent that there are hardly any bishops who should be standing up for us who will actually do so.

10 February 2013 09:03  
Blogger Anne said...

Thank you for the review, Brother Ivo. it will certainly encourage me to buy and read the book.

Many of the comments above demonstrate just the sort of unChristian behaviour that Maggie Dawn reported in the book. What a shame that people think that smear and innuendo, and deliberate misrepresentation of people with whom they disagree, is a proper way to conduct a discussion in the Church.
It says nothing about the person they are attacking, but volumes about themselves.

10 February 2013 10:50  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Happy Chinese New Year Brother Ivo!

Well, I couldn't find any of these apparently awful websites on Maggi Dawn's blogs or websites.

I always thought, as others have said, the ads you get are done on the browsing habits or topics you discuss online. When I come on here, for example, I get adverts about Israel.

10 February 2013 11:44  
Blogger Kinderling said...

When I come on here there are no adverts. They have nothing to sell, I have nothing to buy into.

10 February 2013 12:13  
Blogger Kinderling said...

I have argued the commandment 'call no woman Mother' that it is a vocation that no God would Inspire and call out any soul to hold, for this would negate anyone needing a spirit, and we would live as a dumbas Reverend Guru-Student Class. A Priest/Laity, Politician/prolotariate society, that I hope no one wants to see as an Established Hell on Earth no matter how good for us they tell us.

10 February 2013 12:40  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Socialists imprison the physical form of mankind; Churches, the soul.
The maddest insane sexual deviant is the former's savant, the deranged child seeing Mother Mary's shadow in a well, is the latter's.

To be in allegence to either kingdom where confusion is the only outlet, is criminal.

10 February 2013 12:56  
Blogger Kinderling said...

I'm sorry, I meant the 'Mystery' of Homoeroticism and God, not the person submitting to them as a child, is made confused.

Whose teachings, warned to cause revile, imprisonment and death, could have made me understand that?

10 February 2013 13:03  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

The Inspector is quite frankly astonished to find those who have time for the likes of Maggi Dawn rushing to defend the maidens honour. At least one of the adverts she carries on her site is an invitation to the married to commit adultery. In case that hasn’t hit home amongst the many aforementioned indignant protestants who rallied to her cause, we’ll repeat it.

At least one of the adverts she carries on her site is an invitation to the married to commit adultery.

Shallow, weak and apparently unconcerned women like her do not have the church’s best interests at heart. Unlike men, there is no calling from God to shepherd the flock towards salvation. Instead, what we invariably find is the story of “one woman’s journey to achieve personal fulfilment in an area dominated by nasty men”. It’s been whined about before, by so many before her.

Personal fulfilment. Nothing else. A woman on a personal mission, God help us all.

Now, you detractors, chew away at that...

10 February 2013 13:40  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Kinderling:

I'm curious, when you ascend, will you grow tentacles out of your face or is that something which comes after the Old Ones return?

10 February 2013 13:41  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Inspector:

She has a website with ads. She doesn't (evidently) select the ads herself - they are context specific.

Not context specific in a smart way, mind; for all the tittering and insinuation one merely has to mention marriage/fidelity/adultery and, regardless of context, you will probably get the ads which use those terms.

But as to your comments, allow me to provide a helpful guide:

Imagine you are Maggi's husband, father, or brother (whichever is easier): how would you respond to another man throwing words like "whore" around on what is basically a specious charge?

It's all good and well harking back to a time when men were men etc. etc. - but if you practice none of the charm or respect of a gentleman, it is not as a gentleman you will appear, but a thuggish boot-boy.

10 February 2013 13:46  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

len, I think you'll find if you read the comments that Anglicans and other Christians are equally concerned by Maggi Dawn's lack of theology in promoting the cause of women bishops.

As for the rest of your views, the kindest thing is to say nothing as they are unworthy of answer.

10 February 2013 13:47  
Blogger Anne said...

Inspector General, you have clearly not read the comments you complain about. As has been pointed out more than once, the advertisements you see when you visit ANY site are generated by the interests of the viewer, not the blog owner. Refreshing the site I got an ad for Mac computers, followed by one for Transatlantic crossings by ship. I know why those came up for me.

What does it say about the web browsing of those who complain the site gave them ads for marital infidelity?

Whether you like it or not, ordained women such as Maggi have felt a call from God to serve the Church as priests, and the Church of England has tested and affirmed that calling.

You characterise her as 'shallow, weak and unconcerned'. Those who know her either personally, through her books and via social media know the truth about her is quite different.

10 February 2013 13:52  
Blogger IanCad said...

non mouse,

Thanks for posting the beautiful lyrics of F. W. Faber's wonderful hymn.
It is still very popular in the US but this is the first reference to it that I have seen over here.

Too bad he crossed the Tiber but, then again, look at John Henry Newman (Lead Kindly Light) not only did he also defect to Rome but took hundreds with him.

10 February 2013 14:04  
Blogger Anglican said...

In 2002 the 'Mind of Anglicans' survey conducted by Christian Research (an independent body), found that women clergy, and male clergy who supported women's ordination, were considerably less orthodox in their beliefs than male clergy who did not believe in women's ordination.

There is no reason to think anything has changed.

10 February 2013 14:14  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Anne wrote:

I got an ad for Mac computers

I knew it! People who support WO use Macs! The field is ours, gentlemen. The enemy is in full retreat.

carl

10 February 2013 14:14  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

A fellow links to a Christian woman’s site, and is presented with an opportunity to ‘screw away’ as one understands the street vernacular would have it. Now, this outrage is apparently not the doing of the web owner, who is only receiving good money for the privilege. Indeed, thanks to the wonders of the internet, if the owner herself logged on, she would be presented with nothing more harmful than a florists advert. But not this man – his standing in the virtual world is so low that it is believed he’s after sex from where ever he can get it...

HOW THE BLOODY HELL DID THAT HAPPEN ????

Come back original sin – all forgiven...


10 February 2013 14:31  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Inspector

One feels you have disadvantaged the cause with your rather personal attacks on Ms Dawn. Even she has sought to turn them to her advantage on a Tweet:

"Your commenters accuse me of being under-sexed, *and also* of being a tart! Thus illustrating my point about sexist abuse..."

Maybe it was a mistake to call her a "tart", an "internet whore" and to suggest she uses her female "bits" to marry and have children.

She is a 'moderniser', dear man. Have a look at her profile on the Yale Divinity School and research some of the books she has written and contributed to. It seems she advocates an open door in church, regardless of belief or lifestyle. All very 'catholic' and 'ecumenical' and so 21st century.

The opinions of Ivo and Tiberias seem equally 'Anglican Mainstream'. Is our host promoting a new reformation?

10 February 2013 14:54  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Inspector:

I really wouldn't worry about the adverts. I've had some strange stuff on Cranmer's even on a computer which I know is solely used for work and the occasional comment here (because I'm the only one who uses it). If I comment on Israel, I get holidays in Tel Aviv. If I comment on gay marriage I get gay dating websites. If I comment on the Bible I get some old guy called Herbert Armstrong, I think, who apparently "was right" about everything.

Oddly enough, when I visit YouTube at work, I get ads for "Mature Dating".

10 February 2013 14:59  
Blogger Anne said...

So, now you gentlemen and ladies have established from your own experience that the ads you see on Maggi Dawn's site have nothing to do with her, but are generated on the basis of your internet browsing history, would it be too much to hope for apologies from those of you who made such offensive and untrue remarks about her character on the basis of those advertisements?

10 February 2013 15:09  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Okay, so today I visited the site and was greeted with a series of ad's for washing machines (why?) and another directing me to the weird and wonderful world of Armstrong's teachings (again, why?).

This apparently random advertising, unconnected with one's own internet activity, should be responsibly controlled by the site owner - who knows what might pop up.

10 February 2013 15:14  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Okay, 5 minutes later and we're back to 'Illicit Dating' for the married and attached!

10 February 2013 15:16  
Blogger Holly said...

Whoever is moderating the comments on this blog is doing a miserable job. Many of the comments are quite offensive. Please do not publish such comments.

10 February 2013 16:06  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Anne
Then why am I a female getting ads for Russian brides? I've never looked at Russian brides in all my life! And men's trousers? I don't have cause to look for men's trousers being single and not a cross dresser!!!

I think if Maggi's site is still under construction she should mention this on both her sites and apologise for all those dodgy ads. I see the domain maggidawn.com is still for sale? If she links to it from her old site then why hasn't she bought it? Why does she let this confusion go on without stepping in here to explain herself. If she wants us to read her book and take a view then she should present a better image of herself, At best I think she is lackadaisical flibbertigibbet.

10 February 2013 16:11  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


The Inspector stands defeated. Apparently one of the leading revolutionary lights in Anglicanism is absolved from whatever advertisements her site generates. The fact that it poisons her credibility is neither here nor there. Let’s see if we can find a correlation. Yes, we can project one. A certain protestant in Belfast hears that ++Westminster has written a book. He links to his personal site to learn more. On the very first page, he finds an advert offering him the chance and opportunity to cheat on his wife. Outraged he contacts ++Westminster personally. He is then told that the Archbishop is not responsible for the advertising HE carries, and that further more, the man from Belfast would not have been subjected to said advert if his character had been a little more pure, and that he has only himself to blame. YOU COULDN’T MAKE IT UP !!

As for playing into her hands with ‘sexist abuse’, she rides that term now, today, to justify her church feminising beliefs. In this man’s opinion, she is out there to further the interests of Maggi Dawn, and not that of Christ’s church. How do we know that ? Well, all her sisters before her were on that mission. Why should Maggi Dawn be any different ?

10 February 2013 16:25  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Oh for heaven's sake. It's a template website. There are countless others on the internet and they have nothing to do with the owners' content. They are all just "click-bait", based on context data, and search data.

Maggi Dawn has absolutely nothing to apologise for with regards her website.

10 February 2013 16:25  
Blogger Anne said...

Sigh!
Marie, just to reiterate. The ads are generated by cookies on the basis of things you have looked at and (they think, often wrongly) you may wish to look at in the future. As comments by others have made clear, they are often inappropriate for the viewer.

Why should Maggi Dawn apologise for the dodgy ads when they are nothing to do with her or the content of the site?

Making further offensive comments about her doesn't advance the discussion that this blog post was supposed to be about, which was the review of her book, and its content, and the subject of the ordination of women to the episcopate in the C of E.

10 February 2013 16:25  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Inspector:

Your man in Belfast sounds like a complete numpty to me. You sure he's from these parts?

10 February 2013 16:26  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Anne. Apology ! Bah !

You gals need to know if you want to play football with the boys, you get knocked and pushed just like the rest of us...

Holly. This is a site for grown ups, dear. You get back to reading the People’s Friend...



10 February 2013 16:30  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Belfast, based on real life, occasionally foolish, character, no less...

10 February 2013 16:31  
Blogger len said...

The Inspector like to play rough?.

And all done in a' gruff manly voice' I presume.

Inspector Your low opinion of women is an indicator of something perhaps Dodo could advise you on?.

10 February 2013 16:38  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len, a now increasingly rare occasion where the Inspector replies to your bull.

Where do you get the ‘low opinion of women’ from ? Unless of course it comes from this man’s fervent objection to a member of the fair sex trying to drive home a rift in the CoE.

Incidentally, he does admit to having a ‘low opinion of finger pointing born again loons masquerading as Christians’ but you already know this...



10 February 2013 17:06  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Inspector

Brave sparring, brother. You gave a good account of yourself. I will see you are mentioned in the next dispatches of the Cyber Swiss Guard.

Ms Dawn's has no defence other than, "Ooops, don't be so mean to me you nasty man. Where are the gentlemen? I haven't quite got round to sorting it out, you see. Been far too busy settling in here in Yale, writing books for these Americans and, er, you know, ministering. I do hope no one was tempted by these naughty adverts."

10 February 2013 17:09  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

AIB said ...

"Your man in Belfast sounds like a complete numpty to me."

Indeed, and the observation doesn't help narrow the field much. Now just who in Belfast is a numpty - and who just who isn't?

10 February 2013 17:15  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Greetings Dodo, one enjoys doing his bit, so to speak. Note, Belfast is in hiding now, having ‘walked into it’. That alone was worth the effort, what !


10 February 2013 17:30  
Blogger Kinderling said...

If I saw a diamond among a pile of faeces, I would not complain about the stench as I picked out my fortune.

Similarly, if Ms Dawn had gold to offer, a cartoon advert would not have me judging her in preventing feeding my soul with her noble food of consciousness.

Because this would be like saying Jesus cohorted with Tax Collectors and then dismissing whatever he had to say.

I perceive women make the best priests because they are the best laity, and they will perfect the shabby priestcraft into a new artform.

For they really do believe the stories about the Jesus Magic Man, that so forlornly they cannot find on earth. To love and hold onto Him like virgin brides.

Jesus for Afrians, Jesus for Europeans, Jesus for Asians, Jesus for Feminists, Jesus for OiG. None never having met him, or researched how the meat of the hamburger got to them. But he fills and sustains an empty hole in them that they had no right to fill but await in pain to find the truth about why they lost theselves, that sets them free.

AnonymousInBelfast wrote: "Kinderling:

I'm curious, when you ascend, will you grow tentacles out of your face or is that something which comes after the Old Ones return?"


The kingdom of god is here. Why do you wait until you are dead, and then wish your corpse to travel across a lake?

10 February 2013 17:50  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Kinderling

With your love of Eastern mysticism, I though you'd be making a pilgrimage to dip yourself in the Ganges today?

10 February 2013 18:01  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Kinderling ...and above all. “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t bring that dog in here, mate”

One presumes the faeces you mention is Maggi’s book, and the diamond, the money coming flooding, or maybe trickling, from it.

You’re rather harsh on her, what !

10 February 2013 18:01  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Bishop Wilson

One rather thinks the title(s) of your thesis reveal your own predisposition.

'The theology of church and party of some London ritualistic clergy and parishes, 1880–1914, with special reference to the Church Crisis of 1898-1906'

The unofficial, more PC tile,

'The authority of church and party among London Anglo-Catholics, 1880–1914, with special reference to the Church Crisis, 1898–190'

Time to cull the remaining ritualistic, Anglo-Catholic laity now the clergy is on message, what?

10 February 2013 18:12  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Hannah,

There is:
1. Jesus the God-Man Messiah Personality and there is
2. his teachings his disciples managed to grasp and went out, with nothing, to perform the same 'miracles' upon the stressed.

I know much about his teachings and nothing about His Glory. As you carry a lot of baggage I would suspect you wanted 1 to agree with you when you needed 2.

OiG, I think you are now wasted. Put down the tipple and retire to bed.

10 February 2013 18:14  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Good heavens, I appear to have been routed in my absence!

Alas, it is very difficult to keep the front line manned when I have a wife to keep fed and happy.

Inspector, I don't think I know this chap in Belfast - certainly I can't think of many Protestants who'd regularly be looking up ++Westminster's website. Still, I have an enormous soft spot for foolishness, so perhaps you could put us in contact.

Mind you, not if he's one of those public school-boy wannabees who thinks that a lack of manners marks his superiority. We're old fashioned here, and rather value chaps who are courteous to the fairer sex, and don't resort to vulgarity to supplement an argument.

10 February 2013 18:17  
Blogger non mouse said...

Thanks Mr. IanCad @14:04.
Yes, "Lead Kindly Light" is wonderful. Perhaps it's good that Christians can unite through the music of such men- despite the watery expanses between our polarities! God moves in mysterious ways.

10 February 2013 19:01  
Blogger Kinderling said...

1. Jesus the God-Man Messiah Personality

Is a male gender-cult.

2. his teachings his disciples managed to grasp and went out, with nothing, to perform the same 'miracles' upon the stressed.

Is non-gender specific because it is a language of consciousness where Heaven has no male and female.

When a female uses gender-God language as an authority deriding the conscious teachings of Jesus, she is either going to support and prop up the illusion of Church or going to subvert it. Neither is good.

As for OiG, when his ego snarles at another's intent to replace it, you'd better take notice.

10 February 2013 19:05  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Belfast. There was once a foolish man who spent so much time opening doors for ladies that he didn’t notice one making straight for the bishop’s chair, sitting in it and refusing to get out. When he rebuked her for sitting in the chair, she told him “If you want to spend your time being the gentleman, you won’t be objecting to me being the bishop, because if you do, it would be so un-gentlemanly of you, wouldn’t it.”

Think about it...

10 February 2013 19:21  
Blogger len said...

I think the Inspector must have missed his medication today....Nurse!

10 February 2013 19:23  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Inspector:

I reckon, when you're away from the computer you're the kind of man who opens doors for women and gives up your seat on the bus.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too:
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream---and not make dreams your master;
If you can think---and not make thoughts your aim,
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same:.
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build'em up with worn-out tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings,
And never breathe a word about your loss:
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings---nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much:
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And---which is more---you'll be a Man, my son!
"

10 February 2013 19:27  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Len,

Please contribute to exposing the truth. Mocking is the way used often on this board to cloud and prevent reality being discussed.

OIG has implied women like Ms Dawn, are taking his Master's seat, the very order defined by God, down from Jesus to Angels to Mankind.

Either all women should know their place, or a certain kind of 'female spirit' presenting itself as a woman, (as it can present itself within a man), compels them to take over any noble bastion they can find.

He might argue women today are still immature, single parenthood revealing their low consciousness to spead their legs with self-centred egos to suck the life out of their offspring. He might say spirtually their vanity and fixation with their hair and makeup makes the unworthy to be counted as conscious men.

Seeing this kind of woman as Pope would be heartbreaking to him. Seeing a Joan of Arc might not.

Please, therefore ask OiG to clairify what horrors he sees, rather than judge him and avoid hearing the serious message he has to say.

10 February 2013 19:48  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


...and the foolish man was at a loss, for there in the bishops chair remained the woman. And then a wise fellow came up to the foolish man and said “Foolish man, allow me”. He then walked to the woman and said “Get out of that chair, for it is not your place”. And the woman said “Who are you to tell me my place, for you are a mere man”. And the wise man said “God has ordained your place. To be married and to nurture a family. The greatest calling of the lot”. And still the woman did not move, and the man said “If you are not out of that chair in 30 seconds, I will put you over my shoulder and carry you out”. The woman squealed and looked to the foolish man for help, but he just shrugged his shoulders. With all lost, she ran off to her husband, made love and conceived there and then. That last bit taking place in private of course, and nowhere near the bishops chair, where she had no place to be.


10 February 2013 19:48  
Blogger Kinderling said...

"God has ordained your place. To be married and to nurture a family. The greatest calling of the lot"

God orders you out of the chair because of your loins?

Have you not heard those who make theselves low shall sit at the highest table? The servant shall be called master?

I had thought you'd recognized Ms Dawn's ego as trying to match yours, that you were both vying for the same chair neither of you could sit at.

I was wrong. You condemn all women.

10 February 2013 20:18  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Kinderling, what is the real problem you have with "God has ordained your place. To be married and to nurture a family. The greatest calling of the lot". Which incidentally exceeds any calling God gives us mere men. You yourself are a product of the greatest calling. Now, try to esoteric your way out of that...


10 February 2013 20:39  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Inspector

An insightful little modern parable. And behind your outrageous views on the different sexes actually lurks an eternal truth.

Beware the guile of woman.

10 February 2013 21:38  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Reading through Twitter comments posted by our host it seems we are being watched and our comments noted.

@ @ To some we are making hateful, sexist and abusive remarks which should be censored or modified by intervention @ @.

They complain but do not 'fight their own battles' in the light. What does that tell one?

10 February 2013 21:53  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo, have engaged this twitter apparatus and am appalled to find ones stiff judgemental attitude to the woman apparently perceived as ‘hatred’, for God’s sake. And a call to censorship by a seemingly emasculated and feminised male priest. This is damn outrageous. It is to the Archbishop’s credit that he is not having any of this, and is even putting the detractors in their place.

He is a giant in the area of free speech, an accolade so richly deserved, though you may not be so forthcoming in your praise as he considers you personally a pestilence upon his site. {AHEM}

10 February 2013 22:23  
Blogger Kinderling said...

OiG,

The last man I met who watched what women did, permitted or haram, became a cross-dresser, more femine and more dictatorial to out do them.

Beware the man who watches women.

I don't care what women do, as long as they are capable and were not employed above another person because of their gonads.

With the church that claims to teach Jesus and then finds more money in doing God, I would suspect any woman who wanted to participate in this fraud, and fleecing the congregations who are mainly women.

Beware, the woman who watches men.

10 February 2013 23:15  
Blogger len said...

Kinderling

You are asking me to take the Inspector seriously?.

You have a sense of humour after all!.

10 February 2013 23:46  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Did Jesus use the church to spread his ministry? No, he taught to do what they say, but not what they do. Their words are for spiritual poverty, their actions are for earthly riches. Nothing has changed. There is no calling, only out of confusion is submission, or out of the pit of envy, the thirst for equality.

Start your own Church. Afraid God won't help you?

10 February 2013 23:46  
Blogger len said...

I think to take this matter seriously(if one can take any of the Inspectors 'rants' seriously) is that the Inspector is somewhat scared of women and wants to keep them 'in their place' because anything other than this would turn his (I suspect very ordered life) upside down.

People who 'follow religion' want 'rules' and everything to be put in neat (probably labelled) boxes this gives them a sense of security and anything that departs from this leaves them feeling stressed and insecure.





10 February 2013 23:56  
Blogger len said...

Kinderling have you ever heard of the 'kiss principle?'.

It might help me and possibly others?.

10 February 2013 23:58  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Yes Len,
For OiG is sincere in his beliefs. Scripture backs him up, that the world temps women in childhood to use their vanity and confusion to get their way. That a woman survives this guantlet of temptation, or contempt to invert into a homosexual, is a wonder to behold. Male children are now under the same assault.

That the disciples should walk together is better than squabbling who will sit at the right hand of his lap.

10 February 2013 23:59  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Len,

Pose your questions on my blog, and I'll give them my full attention.

11 February 2013 00:06  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

There are those who would consider the Inspector has a downer on women. Nothing could be further from the truth. In his day job, his boss, a woman, is so excellent that although her position attracts secretarial help, she has dispensed with this. She is her own secretary. She is quite an amazing multi tasker, and no doubt about it. However, when it comes to deep thought on one particular field, that is where the Inspector comes in. It is why he is employed.

Now, ask yourselves this, when it comes to a church leader, a bishop no less, whom would you have. A multi tasker who can fathom out any problems a priest may have and put the kids to bed, or a specialist who can fathom out any problems a priest may have.

THAT is the question when it comes to girl bishops...



11 February 2013 00:53  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Inspectoer, said ...

(Our host) " ... considers you personally a pestilence upon his site."

I don't think I'm alone in this, dear man. Just watch your own back.

11 February 2013 01:30  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

THE HG SHOW
Presents

CRANMER...
A site for Misogynistic Piggery At its Best!

STARRING
The Catholic Boot Boys and Compatriots

11 February 2013 02:26  
Blogger Kinderling said...

OiG: "However, when it comes to deep thought on one particular field, that is where the Inspector comes in. It is why he is employed."

Your very maleness makes you unique in your "deep thought in one particular field".

Therefore can any male take up your role? Can say, an African or Indian just apply for your position?

For many, 'You think, therefore you are'. This is our Socialist State. This is those who desire Bishophood.

However, I understand life to be: I perceive, therefore I am.

That percption is open to anyone, male or female.



11 February 2013 08:10  
Blogger IanCad said...

OIG,

The acerbic Lord Chesterfield would, surely, be a man to whom you could relate. A couple of his observations:

A man of sense only trifles with them (women), plays with them. humours and flatters them, as he does witha sprightly and forwrd child; but he neither consults them about, nor trusts them with,serious matters.

Women then, are only children of a larger growth: they have an enertaining tattle, andsometimes wit; but for solid, reasoning good-sense, I never knew in my life one that had it, or reasoned consequentially for four and twenty hours together.

BTW. I have little argument against the ordination of women. As men become more androgynous and flabby we need the disciplined steadfastness of the ladies to enter the breach.

11 February 2013 09:28  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

IanCad. Such was the ladies fate in the 19th century. Literature of the time bears that out. And then came womens education, and it came at a price. A big price, to the family and the general order of society. Over a few decades, past certainties gone for ever.

As men become more androgynous and flabby. Absolutely, dear cad. Both in mind and body. The weak man finds it convenient that way, to empathise with his sister in her struggle. Because when you have a member of the sisterhood, like Maggi Dawn, there’ll be a damn struggle somewhere in her now unfulfilled life to write a book about...

11 February 2013 10:59  
Blogger Kinderling said...

The argument should never be over ability, for this can be demonstrated; it is only about resentment, this energy that the spiritually dead employ to say they are alive, loud and proud.

11 February 2013 10:59  
Blogger non mouse said...

Inspector --- you really do not know that some women have always received education, and that those who could have always supported it?

In our northern climes, they educated women who lived in nunneries, as in the cases of Hilda and Hildegard (Bingen). That's where the education was, you see; and, as boys too often had to go to war, it probably wasn't a bad idea to keep the system going with women. Hilda eventually presided over a double-monastery.

Later, and doubtless because of her privileged status, E I was well-educated; she was also brilliant, or she'd never have survived to become Queen over that lot. But then, her grandmother was Margaret Beaufort --- who had some of her work published, what with printing needing some encouragement, and that.

And, of the foundation of universities: well, just consider the names on some of Oxbridge's colleges.

As to nineteenth-century literature: people like Austen and the Brontes learned to think from somebody, somewhere--in spite of those awful schools they went to initially. I would observe that Charlotte, Emily, and even Anne provided more thought-food for us all than did their poor brother Branwell. Or than the similarly afflicted children of today ever will.

And then, and then: who are the better prepared to serve at the fount of our children's education: intelligent, thoughtful, well-educated Christian mothers -- Or ignorant, superficial, flibbertigibbets, who, it seems, are the only kinds of women you've ever encountered? Either way, even your role requirements put enormous power into the hands of women.

Really, I suspect you of just playing provocative games, here. If so, that does provide an opportunity to point out the facts. If you are not simply being mischieveous: 'the sadness of your outlook is terrific'! A culture that neglects the education of any of its children is doomed.



11 February 2013 18:59  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

mouse, it is not educated women that are the problem per se, but the same who collect academic achievements, leave academia, enter the church and bring their secular thinking academia with them and practice it under the guise of priesthood. Men in the church just do not do that. They don’t require academic achievements to validate themselves. You could say, they are too busy being priests...


11 February 2013 19:24  
Blogger Kinderling said...

The problem with the church is... it is called a 'She'

And as such She attracts she-men, for even males are made female before God, (because they cannot act or poo without his Authority).

Real men do not go to Church.

Jesus was a man of one.

Nothing stops you going out alone.

A male is 'called' to The Mother Church like a Homosexual is 'called' to The Mother Society, both in doubt and insecurity to find a-new-found-faith of justification. It is nothing to rejoice; for the child is suckered to either repress or express their sexuality in the Name of their deities. One is born in Original Sin the other, God loves them as they are.

That a woman should then discover herself 'called' also to lead and nurture such excuses for manhood... into their Final Everlasting Salvation... is the nail in the coffin and the light goes out.

That a child remains a child is the light.

Jesus did not give 'first to the male and then to the female', as St Paul would urge us to believe God gave "first for the Jew, then for the Gentile". Jesus' walk, is equally the same for both genders.

There is no business for any person to lead another into their own fears and ignorance.

If a radio-presenter said all men are stupid, men would just shrug and say it was true.

If they said all women were stupid... women (and femen rallying to their defence), would order the radio station to be burned down and the presenter imprisoned for a Hate Crime.

The Church will not defend you against creeping Sharia or sleeping Communism, your wits are your only survival.

11 February 2013 21:17  
Blogger Kinderling said...

To claim to be better than another person, male or female is to your peril, for you pour hot coals on your own head.

11 February 2013 21:28  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Kinderling, re your post at 21:17

Look old son, you’ll find a bin icon near it, click on it and remove it.

The Inspector notes your declining intellect, but let’s not make a public spectacle of it, what !


11 February 2013 22:12  
Blogger Kinderling said...

No, Kinderling notes you only function with a half-a-brain.

Your fear of women is that of a person watching a soccer match and having a woman commentator. She ruins your attachment to the game of male players, who are mostly foreign imports, supporting the name of a town you once lived in or liked the sound of as a child. She literally shatters that fable. You have no connection at all and she knows it because she has no attachment either.

Likewise, women Bishops ruin the fable you have any connection to a Jesus, whom you never met, but champion the cloth of a church you were exposed to as a child. She literally shatters that fable. You have no connection at all and she knows it because she has no attachment either.

However, you will simply move to another TV Channel and another Holy Church honouring the sacred all-male presence to escape into the dream of being part of something you are not.

If you knew it was just having fantasy fun of the boys gtting togther... I get it. That you think it is real... OMG

11 February 2013 22:27  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Kinderling said


"The problem with the church is... it is called a 'She'"

But countries and ships are also referred to as a 'she'- do you have such a problem with that? And if not doesn't your whole theory fall flat on its face?

11 February 2013 22:51  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Hannah,

Motherlands are Communist, Fatherlands are Fascist.

OIG's faith is like that belief held upon a football team, 'The One' that will one day win the World Cup and take him up with their Glory.

For me, my team has already won the World Cup, for winning or losing each match, they learn by experience.

And if a Socialist government legislates for "Diversity" within each team, his team will become bland, demoralized and mediocre, resorting to diving and shouting at the ref for fairness to win. But my team will reveal those of strength of character and divide from those who have only anger and resentment to motivate them and leave because winning is not the object.

Winning, is not getting to play at Heaven's Gate, is it unfolding your talents whilst alive.

11 February 2013 23:09  
Blogger Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Kinderling,

LOL!

Why is it that despite your wingnut religio- Psychology sillyness, I cannot help but admire your stubborn nobility (despite calling my own faith a 'mental illness)?

I think perhaps you are overdoing this- calling a country or a ship "she" is a figure of speech. Don't forget that Britannia (that is our lovely blessed Island) is also depicted as a 'she' or as it is know in English as a personification.

LOL, LOL, LOL!

11 February 2013 23:26  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Kinderling, you really are tiresome at times.

Look son, in God’s creation, a woman’s duty is to become a mother. And thence to enable her brood to thrive. That’s how it has been for millennia. Are you suggesting the ancients had it wrong, and it is the women's place to go out into the world and the man to stay at home, grind the corn and suckle the young ?


11 February 2013 23:26  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Hannah,

Religion evolved into hypnosis to 'see' what is not there; Secularism evolved into hypnosis to 'not see' what is there.

One claims God's Decrees... the other claims nature's decrees....

I don't believe either statements, because OiG has no evidence of God and you have no evidence of genes.

But what I do know, is he adheres to the flock of the higher rate of child abusers and you adhere to the flock of higher rate of child abused.

The first drawn to The Father for a validation, the other drawn away from the father for validation.

My Father and I are one.

Thus I see two children who justify themselves, pointing to the fruit of their two religions: Fascism and Socialism.

One where men become a Counterfeit Male with pretentions of righteous apartheid towards women, the other where women are the counterfeit males, with pretentions of righteous apartheid towards men.

This is sin: To separate from your own conscience to avoid pain, in return for a sense of justification and willfulness.

Unless a person is born again... to go back and relive their frustration and anger for jumping into what was not theirs to receive, to repent and to forgive.

It only happens when you stop, and sit still, and want to know what is driving you, because it isn't you.

OiG: "Look son, in God’s creation, a woman’s duty is to become a mother."

It is not a woman's duty. It is her decision alone. Some will even become celibate for the cause of Jesus.

12 February 2013 01:59  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Hannah,

Motherlands are Communist, Fatherlands are Fascist.

I don't know if you've read the history of Communism and the reactionary Nazism it spawned.

Motherlands, quaintly called Nanny States, are about Ground Zero and Diversity, and they are based upon 'you are a guilty until proven innocent.' 'You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide'. If you can't see that happening in your Pleasant Land then I rest my case about the blindsight of secularism. Marriage is about Ultimate Love. The Homosexual is king.

Fatherlands are about predestiny and racial purity and they are based on 'might is right'. The weak and infirm and effeminate are killed. Marriage is an Ultimate Duty. The Pederast is king. Unatural sex reigns in both kingdoms.

The people cannot defend themselves from the state. Democide leaves the remaining policed by Public Enforcement Officers to imprison thought and speech crimes.

They are the opposite of real mothers and real fathers raising families with the right to defend them.

This is the hell you in Europe are soon going to face.

12 February 2013 02:26  
Blogger non mouse said...

I see, OiG @ 19:24. Well, some of it.

I agree that marxist incursion into education has changed the way graduates think. Many who resist the dogma recognise the movement as deliberate subversion of Western culture. The culture itself, of course, was principally a product of Christianity. However, as you are aware from various strands on this blog, subversion was substantiated by Fabians here, and by the Frankfurt School in the US. Students nowadays are often pressured to comply.

Labour-Socialist movements in the non-academic world have run a parallel course.

However, I have to pause at your: Men in the church just do not do that. They don’t require academic achievements to validate themselves. Huh? For employment purposes, people have to prove achievement of at least the basics (boys and girls take the same exams). As others have noted here, any college (including theological) requires qualification for entry; it then provides certification of completion. Afterwards, graduates gravitate to the field, or to acquisition of more expertise in a subject. The latter path includes further development of students' thinking power: that old thing about "inwardly digesting," you know? It connects to a very old idea that education presents traditional knowledge to students, but it also enables their processing of that knowledge. It is about bringing thoughts out of the mind, putting them into words, and converting the words into speech, writing (+ -->usually revision of thought), and then to other types of action. Clerics were trained to do all that to the Glory of God. If you doubt me, I refer you to Ranulph Higden (d. 1364).

Now, as I've mentioned before, I have met two (American) ex-RC priests whose literacy left much to be desired. Since literacy is an instrinsic a part of Christianity, that puzzled me. I could only suspect their full stories ...

As to English "clerics": consider also the word "clerk" (O.E.clerc). According to my Old English Dictionary, meanings of both words range from someone "in holy orders" to "an educated person."* The applications are not mutually exclusive.

Concerning present-day senior clerics: many here routinely complain of their 'lefty-liberal' tendencies. That is, of the marxist legacy to their education. Archbishop Rowan, for example, is said to have that leaning.

Overall then, I think you err in claiming that education has not affected the men of the English church --- or, I would suspect, of the Italian. And Italians have grown a few famous commies of their own, btw.

Feminism is one branch of the marxist academic tree. If it has grafted itself to Christian coursework, it has done so for both men and women. Those few who refuse to 'talk and walk' ... may or may not invoke old-fashioned academic freedom to advantage. But you're quite right. Most do "what is expected," and many swallow the whole line. It doesn't matter what the major subject might be: the poison infects the entire system, and it reaches both men and women.

_______________
Chambers gives the etymology as being from the Latin clericus and the Greek klerikos <-- kleros:a lot, a heritage, then the clergy. Cassell's Latin also translates a "clerk" as a scriba, who could presumably be non-ecclesiastical.

12 February 2013 03:06  
Blogger Kinderling said...

OIG: "Are you suggesting the ancients had it wrong, and it is the women's place to go out into the world and the man to stay at home, grind the corn and suckle the young ?"

I am not suggesting that.

The two-parent family with close relations protects a child with love and positive gender role models. I am convinced a natural childhood does not make a homosexual. I have argued an arrested emotional development does.

Nurture the child and you have a sane society; attack the family, by giving the child over to the Religion or Socialism, and you have a depessed and conquerable population made to give way to the bully God/State because of 'fairness'.

That a wife should stay at home, and the husband take on two jobs if necessary, I 100% agree. That was the 'Ancient's' survival practice.

But remember, nature is evolving the male today by 'council-housing-selection', so he may not be the male of tomorrow. Shorter stature, smaller brain, larger testes, sperm competition, could be all what the ladies want. She will dominate and Bingo be her goddess.

12 February 2013 03:54  
Blogger Kinderling said...

So what is it Jesus teaches about the human condition? That women should wear a burkah because you are a Traditionalist, or she be led wherever the spirit of conscience take her? Just as you would want for yourself.

As for those programmed by their subconscience to be compulsive, forgive them for they know not what they do.

12 February 2013 10:14  
Blogger Olive Jones said...

... the Inspector has some advice ... [for Maggie Dawn's happy life].

Not knowing your situation he offers this. Use your womanly bits to attract a man. Marry him and with those same bits raise and care for a family, as God intended for your gender. That should take up much of your time. If you still want to ‘help out’ at the church, there will always be a mop and bucket waiting for you there, dear.

Now, run along sweet thing, and get down to it, so to speak...

Cheery pip !


What woman in her left-brained mind would want to live in OIG's world where you are reduced to "bits." Yuck! How Stepford Wife-ish. How resentful of women is this man, to need to reduce them to "bits" and mop the rectory floor, wot ! What power they must have over him.

Kinderling, as usual, you smash it out of the ballpark. "Feminists" seek the same insanity as men in a patriarchal society. Interestingly, I recently read something
<a href="http://alisina.org/blog/2013/01/19/basis-of-morality/>Ali Sina</a> wrote:

<i>Abused children are more likely to develop one form or another of mental disorder. Patriarchal societies are abusive towards children and towards women. Misogyny results in lowering women’s self-esteem. These women become mothers and pass that low self-esteem to their children. As the result everyone in patriarchal societies is damaged.

... Most Muslim women suffer from depression. Most Muslim men suffer from narcissism. These disorders are the result of patriarchy that has afflicted Muslim families and Muslim societies. No patriarchal society can produce emotionally healthy individuals, whether it is Islamic or not. Although sociopaths exist in all societies, there are more of them in male dominated patriarchal societies.</i>

But I belief this is also true in a "matriarchal" society, like the massive underclass of single female mothers on welfare raising 5 children by 5 different men who aren't around to support them. Different pathologies result, but sickness just the same.

What you suggest, Kinderling, is to stop the artificiality. If a woman were conscious, she would never want to be a "bishop," seeing the silliness of it all. And neither would a man, for that matter! I have no problem with a woman staying at home with the children and a man working two jobs. It is necessary for healthy children.I also have no problem with 6'4" Brunhilda being a fireman if she can lift a 200 lb person and carry them down a ladder and drink her co-workers under the table ... this is freedom ... she is being real, and taking care of business. What I do have a problem with, is someone abdicating their responsibilities to someone else, i.e., raise your own child! And the only problem I have with Maggie Dawn is that she is being fooled and blinded, much like everyone involved in religion. Take responsibility for your life, don't abdicate it to a Jesus or an Allah!





13 February 2013 11:11  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Oh Lord ! Olive Jones is back to emasculate the best of us. Now see here madam, if you spent more time understanding sensible fellows like the Inspector, and less time carping, you might realise that we are not that far apart.

For your information, “women’s bits” remain the top reason for the sexes pairing up, right up until they {...AHEM...} dry up, to put it crudely...

13 February 2013 19:15  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Love God with every single sinew and fibre, and love your neighbor as yourself.

If you did that you would discover God was bigger than any church could proclaim for their worship of Puniness and Dumbas Quotes, and your neighbor could not be cattle bound by Socialism's puny and dumbass groupings.

Shallow, underachieving and Judas-quick-fix-for-salvation followers.

Two unbreakable commandments, meaning: you are to be totally in your seat living a conscious and free life, and the other unseated person should be lead back to theirs.

There are no gender-thrones to be made to sit on by some priest who says his God Said....

A man who looks after the children while the woman works is no bad thing, look at the birds that cooperate. Nature is no bad thing. It is pride, resentment, envy, judgement that forces women to work as wage slaves, that says the state can place children in large groups with another woman who cannot give enough of their attention, and their offspring look for love in all the wrong places, even to blind unswerving loyalty to any government that paid the first £500. The family of one man and one woman is their enemy. Communism.

The Invert Commandment is:

Love the State with every creed, color, race, gender and sexuality it has endowed, and hate those who inherited a soul to understand the first and second commandment from the Son of Man who defeated the fascism in his time.

'first for the Jew and then for the goyem, and first for the male and then for the female' my butt.

.
If you know there is treasure burried in a field, buy the whole field. That is how imperitive it is if you are ever to have your own life back.

13 February 2013 22:19  
Blogger Kinderling said...

OiG,

If Olive emasculates you when she stands next to you, it means your ego attachment is very female-created indeed. For standing next to me she is a very femine woman and not confused as a man, as say by an angel sent to earth seeking a certain kind of town to destroy, and she was approached first when noticed talking to you by the well.

13 February 2013 22:43  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Kinderling. What the bloody hell was 22:43 all about !

You are a damn odd ball, as the world will attest, Sir !


13 February 2013 22:58  
Blogger Kinderling said...

The angel was lost and approached the person with a moral compass. She looked past the book bound.

13 February 2013 23:12  

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