Monday, September 30, 2013

Why do Muslim terrorists slaughter less devout Muslims?

Islamic terrorists are curious things. Not content with killing Christians and Jews, they also seem keen to slaughter their less-devout fellow Muslims.

We weep for our Christian brothers and sisters who had their lives tragically snuffed out in Pakistan and Kenya: we are commanded to pray for our fellow believers who are imprisoned or endure persecution. And yet there are many scriptures which exhort us to pray for all those who suffer, of whatever race or creed. They are all our neighbour.

The zealous Muslims of Boko Haram ("the Congregation of the People of Tradition for Proselytism and Jihad") in Nigeria deem their lukewarm brothers worthy of death, and so they assaulted an agricultural college and gunned down dozens of students, aged 18-22, as they slept in their dorms.

"They started gathering students into groups outside, then they opened fire and killed one group and then moved onto the next group and killed them. It was so terrible," one surviving student told Reuters.

"They attacked our students while they were sleeping in their hostels, they opened fire at them," Provost Molima Idi Mato of Yobe State College of Agriculture, told The Associated Press.

Almost all of those killed were Muslims. Those who had to identify the dead were Muslims. Those who now wail and mourn their loss are Muslims. Those who have to live their lives in the shadows of this horror are Muslims.

In the picture above, one student has his fists clenched to his chest, in seeming self-defence; another has his arms raised, apparently in surrender; yet another has his hands clasped under his chin, as if in prayer.

Boko Haram aims to establish an Islamic state in northern Nigeria. The Christian south needs to be 'cleansed', and the north encouraged to become more 'pure'; ie to adopt the precepts and practices of the Boko Haram sharia school of Islam. The group has developed something of a habit of attacking schools and colleges - where 'Western' educators of any faith are executed, and the youngest pupils often burned alive. It isn't only the churches - though these are also attacked and their priests and pastors tortured and killed.

“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of (Islam), (even if they are) of the People of the Book (Christians)" (Sura 9:29).

There is not much 'Religion of Peace' for those whose vocation is to exterminate the non-believer. And for Boko Haram that includes those who are infected by the Western world (including anyone who agitates for democracy). And all assessment of that infection is carried out by Boko Haram. There is no trial, no judgment and no appeal. Punishment is summarily meted out - even if you're an imam.

Because some Muslims believe and some Islamic clerics teach that "Islam is known to be a religion of peace and does not accept violence and crime in any form." Ergo Boko Haram does not represent Islam.

Let us leave that debate today for the theologians and jurists of Islam. And let us Christians weep with those who weep, and pray for those all over the world who are persecuted, tortured and murdered for their faith (or lack of it).


Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

I weep Your Grace, for all human life is precious and we are all diminished by such wanton madness. You rightly say this group of killers do not represent Islam, but do they not in fact represent an interpretation of Islam - one that seems to be gaining ground across the globe?

30 September 2013 at 10:40  
Blogger Len said...

We should indeed weep with those that weep , but that is not enough.What is needed is the truth about Islam and 'religion' in general.
The problem here is that each division of' religion' believes it holds' the truth'..the 'absolute' truth.
Christianity is no stranger to this concept and indeed Christianity(of all denominations) has committed similar atrocities in the past.

Why do Muslims kill Muslims?.
Mohammed said clearly that there would be 73 sects and only one
would be righteous and only one will go to paradise. Now problem is that every sect claims to be right.
The main issue today is truth and Truth has only one source which is God Himself.

30 September 2013 at 11:10  
Blogger DannyEastVillage said...

I believe the Prophet is quoted as saying if you force another person to practice Islam you are not practicing Islam.

30 September 2013 at 11:51  
Blogger David Hussell said...

We are made in the image of God so, yes, as Mrs Proudie says, all human life is precious.

Why do they kill other Muslims asks his Grace. Well they clearly hate any and all western influences totally, seeing it all as utterly evil. All learning, apart from traditional Koranic teaching is, it appears, one hundred percent unacceptable.

Yet presumably they use weapons and vehicles which are the result of western science and technology. Are their clothes all made in a totally traditional way one asks. The most cursory consideration reveals that this has no recognizable intellectual coherence.

Christianity , excepting The Puritans, has never to my knowledge rejected non-Christian ideas, simply because they originated outside their own faith, but instead held up the light of Christianity with which to examine and test it. Thus it was Augustine himself, I believe, who urged The Church of the time to examine Greek thought to see if it contained ideas that his faith could identify as of value.

Presumably these terrorists would continue killing all people, exterminating everyone, who was not completely in conformity with their beliefs. In that sense their actions unite the almost all of the vast remainder of humanity. I would suggest that negotiation is not an option with such men.

30 September 2013 at 11:52  
Blogger Johnnyrvf said...

Boko Harem DOES represent Islam, as your quote of Sura 9.29 demonstrates, when are certain factions of Christianity going to realize that Islam is a mockery of Christs teachings and the true and immortal Father?

30 September 2013 at 12:03  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

YG Said

"Because some Muslims believe and some Islamic clerics teach that "Islam is known to be a religion of peace and does not accept violence and crime in any form." Ergo Boko Haram does not represent Islam." (How is it known to be 'a religion of peace' if it brings none except by brutal and civic submission). In any walk of life, when a claim is made of an absolute definition we ask for evidence. Only Christ is called Absolute Peace..we Christians are called to it by discipleship and His declaration on the mount and living example but we are not singled out as a definitive example of it, are we. He gives peace not WE."

Let us leave that debate today for the theologians and jurists of Islam.(How can we when day by day these atrocities happen and the left and liberal hand wringers look to Islam as some persecuted underdog, whereas we are told by the Qur'an they are in constant jihad against infidels and the kingdom of Allah must be expanded at all costs, region by region. It is the duty of the Islamist to ensure that other muslims continue in this fight to do Allah's will as Mohammed did by example).

So here's predicament and it's not good: We've (non muslims who understand the doctrines within the Qu'ran and Mohammed's words and examples) become aware of Islamic doctrine and we don't like it, so we naturally wonder where the 'nice' Muslims among us stand, and instead of saying, "We acknowledge the intolerance and violence of our core doctrines, and we reject them totally," they tend to open up with hostility, and so deepen our suspicions.

They refuse to acknowledge the aggressive violence advocated and exhorted with 91 passages in the Koran that tell Muslims to follow Muhammad's example.

The 'hostility and finger-pointing and the avoidance of honesty' are exactly what we would expect from someone who believes in the supremacist, intolerant teachings of Islam and from our liberal luvvies here in our country with their 'hostility and finger-pointing and the avoidance of honesty' towards we who are concerned about our predicament.

Old Ernst has never heard from a Muslim personally or in the media or on this blog ( not once) that acknowledged the existence of the immense number of passages in the Qur'an that non-Muslims find disagreeable, passages that anyone with a modicum of comprehension of words and their stated meaning could understand are disagreeable to non-Muslims.
Not once have I heard any Muslims acknowledged the existence of the egregious example of Muhammad — an example anyone with the slightest amount of human empathy would understand might be considered offensive or terrifying to non-Muslims as what could come from these adherents of peace.

Please may we stop molly-coddling the innocent/modrate? Muslims and start being very matter-of-fact about our situation in this country. We must stop talking around this issue and avoiding the source of the problem.

If someone's ideology calls for unrelenting jihad against non-Muslims until the whole world is forced to submits to Sharia, generally speaking, you shouldn't invite them to come live in your country and bring their wives and children. And if they are already in your country, you usually will (and definitely should) be wary of them until they prove their devotion and loyalty to your country and the principles your society is founded on. *Simples*

"And let us Christians weep with those who weep, and pray for those all over the world who are persecuted, tortured and murdered for their faith (or lack of it)." Indeed but do lets keep at least one eye on the problem with head bowed and other eye closed in prayerful contemplation of the atrocity and suffering.


30 September 2013 at 12:05  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

The attacks on places of education with teachers ‘of any faith’ may provide a clue to the killers’ reasoning. The Qur’an warns Muslims several times not to make friends with non-Muslims. One of the final, and thus most authoritative, revelations reads:

[5:51] Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrongdoers.

Muslims who form friendships with non-Muslims ‘become one of their number’, meaning that they have committed apostasy, the punishment for which is death. Going by the letter of the law, Boko Haram should give the condemned the opportunity to repent:

‘In such a case, it is obligatory for the caliph (or his representative) to ask [the apostate] to repent and return to Islam. If he does, it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed.’—Revelation of the Traveller, section o8.2

30 September 2013 at 12:13  
Blogger Elby the Beserk said...

Um. According to the BBC, these are not terrorists, but militants.

Work that one out for yourselves.

30 September 2013 at 12:45  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Elby ,

In the recent past we have had, in the UK that is, Militant Unionists, Militants Miners even, but to use the word militant to describe these people shows a lack of ability to use language and a disconnect with reality, that is far more than worrying. It is sick, and an insult to those whose organizations have been, quite rightly, named as "militants".

The BBC is no longer fit for purpose and must be reshaped to fit it's national purpose.

30 September 2013 at 14:03  
Blogger The Justice of the Peace said...

Christians learned some hundreds of years ago that their faith was not enhanced by killing Christ`s fellow believers. It seems that some Muslims have yet to reach that state of enlightenment.

30 September 2013 at 14:25  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

Eos omnes Deus sueos agniscet (Apologies if Latin is wrong)
Shaows that christians delighted in killing un-devout other christians ...
Or burning protestants at the stake, or killing other forms of "not our $version of christianity.
It's religion - & they all do this....

30 September 2013 at 14:48  
Blogger Len said...

Mr Tingey,

If you really want to know what Christianity is all about read the 'Sermon on the Mount.I have put some of the verses here in case you don`t have a Bible. The Beatitudes
2 And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying:
3 “Blessed are sthe poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5 “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst yfor righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

30 September 2013 at 15:09  
Blogger Corrigan said...

Tingey, i'm guessing that's "kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out". Besides the fact that no one ever said it, I'm still waiting for atheists to put their hands up for Stalin.

30 September 2013 at 15:45  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

These are not Islamic terrorists, they are youths behaving inappropriately.

Has not our own Prime Minister (pbuh) said that these incidents aren't about religion but are about terror, violence and extremism?

So who are we to judge otherwise?

This kind of thing can occur with any religious group, for example when Methodist congregations incensed by Wesleyan preachers torch Baptist chapels and behead their congregations. It happens all the time.

30 September 2013 at 15:46  
Blogger David B said...

Atheists are not without sufficient empathy to feel for the victims of Muslim terrorists as well as some Christians.

Indeed, for months now, I have been repeatedly pointing out that it is not just Christians who are persecuted by Islamic terrorists.

The sort of fanaticism that leads people to that sort of length is always a terrible thing, whether Islamic, Christian, or indeed fascist or communist.


30 September 2013 at 16:31  
Blogger John Thomas said...

Surely we (now) know, from this, that all Muslims are not "the same", not evil - but it could still be said that Islam itself is twisted, Islam (it true nature) is THE cause. Maybe the "good" Muslims are those who do NOT take the rules and requirements of their religion (as in the Koran, as in the verses requiring murder of Jews, infidels, etc.) seriously or literally. However "good" Christians are those who DO take the requirements of their religion (the commands of Jesus to love one's enemies, etc.) seriously.

30 September 2013 at 16:34  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

One can’t answer the Archbishop’s question directly, but can offer a suggestion as to why sub Saharan Africans and their cousins abroad are all too ready to kill or maim. The answer may be surprisingly simple. And mixed with Islam, devastating.

Western Europeans are descendants of farmers and fishermen. And of course, it is rather tougher to survive in Northern climes and we can only do it by co-operation. We trade. We been doing it for thousands of years, hundreds of generations, and it’s now hard wired in us. Thus, we see in our fellows some value in them. We need them and they need us. To survive, we will help each other out.

Now, this was not the case in Africa. Existence there was rather easier, and it revolved around the tribe. And the most valued member of the tribe was the hunter warrior. They too have lived this way, until comparatively recently, for thousands of years too. And yes, their behaviour is also hard wired.

And being an accepted warrior meant everything. You see, marriage did not exist and breeding could only be at the invitation of the tribal chief. It does not stretch the imagination to suggest that only appreciated hunter warriors were so favoured by the chief. And here in lies the problem. The man’s genes would produce a brain structure that accommodates aggression. When you consider the compounded effect of thousands of years of this way of reproducing, you can see how adept the African male would be as a hunter warrior. The most prized group of the tribe.

So there you have it. We are not born as empty sheets. We arrive, thanks to the principles of genetic inheritance, with baggage on this earth. With the African, we have to remember this - generally, his IQ isn’t going to be too high. After all, he’s a do-er, not a thinker, and that is how he will approach life. Action before thought, if he thinks of his actions at all. It must take resolve to kill a man, and if you don’t think about what you are doing and go onto automatic, so much the better - you kill more.

This state of affairs however is not hopeless. Education is the key. We must remember that what are considering here are default settings for surviving as a human in what used to be a very uncertain world, and still can be. They can be overcome, if the subject is made fully aware of their existence.

30 September 2013 at 18:08  
Blogger Len said...

We in Europe have done a pretty good Job of' killing' and 'maimimg' .
Two World wars the Holocaust etc?.
Not to mention all that went on before.....

30 September 2013 at 18:20  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

There is of course a difference between private behaviour and the demands placed upon a soldier. And until the NAZIs came along, it wasn’t goodbye to so many non combatants...

30 September 2013 at 18:35  
Blogger Edward Spalton said...


Do you mean that therefore we should accommodate this sort of mass murder and invite more of its practitioners to our shores? is, after all, part of their culture which, so the PC brigade have told us for years, must be respected. Not only that, they have made provision for the legal persecution of those expressing an opinion to the contrary.

30 September 2013 at 19:06  
Blogger IanCad said...

Awful, awful, awful.

We can pray for their families to be comforted.

If these atrocities continue then we have to back Assad.

Will William Hague then have the decency to resign??

30 September 2013 at 19:23  
Blogger David Hussell said...


Your ideas explained at 18.08 touch upon what is known as Climatic Determinism. This is the idea that climate, by influencing individuals and society over many centuries, feeds into norms of behaviour. This was generally accepted throughout society in the 19th century and well into the 20th, but became associated with crude ideas of inherent racial superiority and therefore rejected, after perhaps the middle of the last century. I remember reading up on it as an undergraduate Geographer, more decades ago than I care to remember.
Whilst I also reject extreme, simplistic and crude ideas about racial superiority, I find it unlikely that somethings as ever present as climate, which affects just about everything physical that our bodies need, such as the availability of food, for example, has no influence at all on us humans is implausible. Surely climate must have an influence on national character I postulate.
And yes I agree with you that education is a powerful tool, for good or ill. And perhaps that is why these terrorists feel that they need to kill their countrymen who are receiving western education. They do not want people to think, but just to obey.

30 September 2013 at 19:34  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

David Hussell, Climatic determinism is accepted as one of the main factors behind the varying IQ found on this earth. The idea being that the harder it is to survive, the cleverer you have to be about it. Unfortunately, IQ tests don’t cover manual survival skills, in as much as you don’t need to know the Gazelle is Thomson’s, than how to gut it.

One is quite amazed that by now, no full appreciation of manual survival skills has ever taken place to one’s knowledge. And that from extensive research on the net. This because those with the greatest of survival skills, the Australian aborigine for example, have among them the greatest regard for human life. In this man’s opinion. Similar with the Inuit.

Anyway, the point being, it is a lot easier to survive in Africa. The original Garden of Eden, if you will.

30 September 2013 at 19:56  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Remember the ridiculous attempt by the government to test immigrants for Britishness by asking questions like "When was the battle of Hastings". Why don't we change the format and ask people to reject certain Sharia laws such honour killings, amputations of feet and hands for stealing.

30 September 2013 at 20:00  
Blogger Len said...

Edward Spalton,

Your suggestion is ridiculous.(30 September 2013 19:06)

What I am suggesting however is that it is not so much 'race' that is the problem but the fallen nature of man.
When fallen man gets hold of religion he believes that he can kill in the name of his 'god' whoever that might be.Hitler believed he was serving' god' as indeed do the muslims.... such is the nature of deception.

30 September 2013 at 20:19  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len, you will no doubt be relieved to hear that you are excused further participation on this thread, by kind permission of the Inspector General.

This is due to the nature of the subject in hand requiring intellect, insight, and dare it be said, a certain amount of imaginative thinking. All attributes that two years of reading your rot has convinced your benefactor that you are singularly lacking.

But consider the advantages. It will allow you more time to sit on your wall to shout out to decent Christian passers by that they are going to hell because they are somewhat reluctant to allow you to ‘baptise’ them in the nearest canal.

Be seeing you. Now go...

30 September 2013 at 20:40  
Blogger David Hussell said...


Manual skills are ignored by academics who over-emphasize the importance of brain skills, hence IQ tests routinely ignore them. This is in the nature of acedemia.
If anyone doubts academics obsession with brain skills, divorced from doing things, just look at our society's recent and foolish obsession with "degrees" when vital, practical skills are what are needed as well, all in the right proportions, alongside more cerebral intelligence.
A phrase that was popular in my childhood was "necessity is the mother of invention", meaning that environmental pressures stimulate practical creativity. It's a similar idea really.

30 September 2013 at 20:50  
Blogger DerekP said...

I see some signs of the BBC's (and possibly other MSM) success in restricting language to determine what Your Grace and others can think,
(e.g. as many have commented, 'militants instead of 'terrorists').

"Boko Haram aims to establish an Islamic state in northern Nigeria"
(my emphasis)

I have heard that apparently respectable phrase "establish an Islamic state" often on the BBC.

Indeed, as the early reports of the Nairobi mall murders were being made, very often the only time the BBC would acknowledge the Muslim facet of yet another Muslim murder-fest was with that phrase - otherwise omitting the Muslim involvement completely.

That phrase is only part true, needing the following to properly describe the situation:
"by murdering or driving off any who do disagree"

It would simply be more truthful to say impose rather than establish, though even that softens yet more deliberate mass murder by Muslims.

So the poison dripped by the MSM of telling misleading part-truths continues with unnoticed success.

30 September 2013 at 21:02  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...


", we have to remember this - generally, his IQ isn’t going to be too high. "

I once met a group of students from Kamuzu Academy. the Eton of Africa. They took the top 0.5% of the ability range and their students seemed really bright and articulate.

If the Africans are not all that bright it is because generally, their education system is crap.

They murder each other for lots of reasons. Mainly because they can. It would happen in Gloucestershire, with the same criminal justice system, or lack of.


30 September 2013 at 21:37  
Blogger bluedog said...

An interesting suggestion, Mr Shacklefree @ 20.00, but isn't your proposal just one step away from the re-introduction of Test Acts? Which in the context of militant Islam may not be such a bad thing!

30 September 2013 at 21:44  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Phil Roberts, this man made a generalisation, which is supported by fact. An ‘Eton of Africa’ sounds an unnerving place, though wouldn’t have said that if we’d never heard of Cameron. Which, if there was any integrity in who becomes PM, we wouldn’t have.

30 September 2013 at 21:47  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Inspector @ 18.08, you are beginning to remind this communicant of his grandfather. Entrenched in his Scottish domain, he was a mildly terrifying figure with a commendably uncomplicated outlook; 'Two things keep the world safe for the white man, the Yellow River and yellow fever'.

Think about it!

30 September 2013 at 21:52  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Must be a Gaelic thing, old hound...

30 September 2013 at 22:04  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Meanwhile in Malaysia a movement claiming to represent the Muslim majority is once again trying to get a court order preventing Christians from publishing Bibles and other printed matter in the local language unlerss they use a different name for “God” instead of “Allah”, which has always been the name used until now.

”Christians in the Middle East and Indonesia have long used Allah to refer to the Christian God. So have Malaysia's one million Christians, 60 percent who speak the Malay language and live mostly in the Borneo states of Sabah and Sarawak. But in 2008, the government threatened to revoke the Herald's publishing licence if it continued to use the word, triggering a legal battle that has yet to be resolved. [. . .] Although the High Court found in the Herald's favour in 2009, affirming Christians' constitutional right to use Allah, the government appealed the decision. On Tuesday, the Appeal Court finally began hearing the case, as scores of Christians and Muslims held vigils outside.”

Another link:

30 September 2013 at 22:15  
Blogger bluedog said...

Partially so, OIG. The hound is a mongrel.

30 September 2013 at 22:16  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said... is the Inspectorate.

30 September 2013 at 22:23  
Blogger bluedog said...

Everything's alright, Uncle Brian @ 22.15. Malaysia is a member of the Commonwealth, and the Secretariat will send them a stiff note, threatening suspension. A threat that will remain just that.

30 September 2013 at 22:38  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

...used to be a British battleship.

30 September 2013 at 22:54  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Phew! Thank you, bluedog. That's a relief. Now I'll be able to get a good night's sleep.

It's curious, though, that there are some Muslims putting forward the rather odd claim that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all what they call "Abrahamic religions", which is presumably meant to convey that all three worship the same God, while at the same time other Muslims, in Malaysia, are arguing just the opposite, that the God of the Christians is a different god from theirs, the one called Allah.

30 September 2013 at 22:56  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

...anyway, isn’t Allah another name for the Devil. (Don't blame this man, read the Islamic texts...)

30 September 2013 at 22:56  
Blogger Julia Gasper said...

Hallo Mr Corrigan, I see you are still alive and kicking. Not long ago on another thread you asked whether the inhabitants of the British Mandate of Palestine were ever consulted about the plan to establish a Jewish homeland in part of it. I wonder if you were watching Simon Schama's Story of the Jews on TV last Saturday evening. He produced a document viz a letter from King Faisal, the leader of the Arabs at that time, saying that he welcomed the idea and hoped Jews and Arabs, who are all cousins, would co-operate and help each other.
Now that's what I call history...

30 September 2013 at 23:00  
Blogger Julia Gasper said...

@ OIG . Well I am told "Allah" is just an ancient name for God, which long pre-dates the 6th century.

30 September 2013 at 23:02  
Blogger Julia Gasper said...

@ Uncle Brian. "Abrahamic religions" is just the term used for those three in academic religious studies.

30 September 2013 at 23:04  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Uncle Brian (22:56)—some Muslims putting forward the rather odd claim that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all what they call ‘Abrahamic religions’

‘I have some experience in the region, partly from this role that I have and recent visits and contacts with many faith leaders of all three Abrahamic faiths’—Someone who is turning out to be rather disappointing

30 September 2013 at 23:08  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Julia, this man worships God, not Allah. Can you blame him ?

30 September 2013 at 23:09  
Blogger Julia Gasper said...

And finally the answer to Cranmer's question in the title: "To encourage the others..."

30 September 2013 at 23:09  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Julia, or even “Because they can”

And there is no one to stop them...

30 September 2013 at 23:28  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Johnny Rottenborough

Well, well, if it isn't Archbishop Wobley himself. That link provides a fascinating insight. Thank you.

Julia, thank you too for that information, which was new to me. I have the impression that the expression "Abrahamic religions" (or "faiths") is a fairly recent coinage, dating back no earlier than the eighties or thereabouts. Can you confirm that?

Earier than that, I think I'd only ever seen the adjective "Abrahamic" in contexts closely connected with the patriarch himself, such as "the Abrahamic covenant". Is it known who coined the new usage? And where and when?

30 September 2013 at 23:33  
Blogger Ivan said...

Allah is the name of a cultic god, perhaps of the Moon, who in Queeran operates as Mohammed's pet genie. The activist Muslims in Malaysia are doing the Christians an unintended favour by insisting that they avoid using the term "Allah" to refer to Almighty God.

1 October 2013 at 01:02  
Blogger Ivan said...

Muslims in America were jealous of the exalted status accorded to the gassy "Judeo-Christian" heritage in the polity of the US. "Judeo-Christian-Islamic" is a mouthful, hence they settled for the catchy "three Abrahamic faiths" as suited to their disingenuous ways.

1 October 2013 at 01:26  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Uncle Brian,

Archbishop Wobley?

His Grace wonders where he's heard that before..

Could you please expound your personal religious beliefs, including denominational inclination? Bless you.

1 October 2013 at 08:01  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Your Grace

"His Grace wonders where he's heard that before.."....

“There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact.”

“You know my method. It is founded upon the observation of trifles.”

“Fowl play? The game is afoot, dear communicants.” *Chuckles*


1 October 2013 at 08:33  
Blogger David Hussell said...

I believe that Arabic speaking ME Christians use the word Allah for God as well.

Yes, the term "Abrahamic Faiths" is used by academics and those wishing to emphasize what the religions share together. Judaism and Christianity obviously have a strong common origin but one is struggling rather with the third one. The Christian Triune God is not the same "god" as the Muslim Allah, as any relatively superficial study soon shows. Whilst the three faiths focussed on Jerusalem also have just one, not the many Gods, of the more mystical Eastern religions, thus giving a certain commonality to the three, the term is also very misleading I believe. It is all part of the tendency to blur distinctions, nudging us towards syncretism.

If there is to be respectful dialogue between the faiths, which is a practical necessity due to immigration, it is far more likely to be successful being based on each party being honest "in its skin" and recognizing both, commonly held social objectives, like peaceful co-operation between social groups, alongside the genuine doctrinal and moral differences that exist. All else is confusion and retreat. Christians must not misrepresent their faith, not if they are to remain faithful to The Saviour.

1 October 2013 at 08:48  
Blogger Mr. Morden said...

Why do Muslim's kill other Muslim's YG. For the same reason Catholic's killed Protestant's and vice versa. ie There can be only one true faith ! But those who are stronger and are well armed seem to win the argument.

1 October 2013 at 09:22  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Your Grace,

In answer to your first query, I wasn't consciously quoting, or even alluding to, any other source. Why do you ask? Am I missing your point?

And in answer to your second, I was born and brought up in the C of E but am now, and have been for nearly twenty years, an "RC". But my views on denominations are not divisive, quite the opposite. I tend to see the churches as one Church. Wherever two or three, and all that. Some people swim the Tiber, others cross Lambeth Bridge, and there are even some who go canoeing in Lake Geneva. But we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

1 October 2013 at 09:24  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Uncle Brian,

His Grace is appreciative.

Your IP address was not available - this blog is assaulted daily by a nuisance who creates multiple identities and trolls every thread, constantly banging on about the deficiencies of the Church of England and the perfection of the Church of Rome. Each new incarnation is being summarily deleted, which is tiresome.

His Grace apologises for having troubled you, but you expressed a perception of Archbishop Justin which precisely echoed that of this nuisance.

1 October 2013 at 09:30  
Blogger Len said...

Inspector ...every time you post you prove my point that religion cannot change anyone...keep up the good Dodo`s [apparent ] absence you more then make up for him.

1 October 2013 at 10:13  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

David Hussell said..

"I believe that Arabic speaking ME Christians use the word Allah for God as well."

The use of it has been cleansed from it's original meaning and indoctrinated into all in the region as meaning God.

The real question is was Allah really God. It appears that Allah was originally associated with Hubal as Elohim was to YHWH for the Jews.

Hubal was know as 'The Lord' as Allah has also and is referred to and was known as The Lord of Ka’bah and linked to the worshiped black stone seated at Mecca.

Patricia Crone in her book P. Crone, Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam, pp. 192-193 states after dealing with the issue of what constitutes a 'housed build' or the 'stone' itself and discussing aspects of Arabian litholatry (the worship of a deity through a stone), she notes that this can easily apply to Allah as well, through the black stone housed in the Ka’bah,

“If we assume that bayt and ka’ba alike originally referred to the Meccan stone rather than the building around it, then the lord of the Meccan house was a pagan Allah worshipped in conjunction with a female consort such as al-’Uzza and/or other “daughters of God.” This would give us a genuinely pagan deity for Quraysh and at the same time explain their devotion to goddesses.

“But if Quraysh represent Allah, what was Hubal doing in their shrine? Indeed, what was the building doing? No sacrifices can be made over a stone immured in a wall, and the building accommodating Hubal makes no sense around a stone representing Allah. Naturally Quraysh were polytheists, but the deities of polytheist Arabia preferred to be housed separately.

No pre-Islamic sanctuary, be it stone or building, is known to have accommodated more than one male god, as opposed to one male god and female consort. The Allah who is attested in an inscription of the late second century A.D. certainly was not forced to share his house with other deities. And the shrines of Islamic Arabia are similarly formed around the tomb of a single saint. If Allah was a pagan god like any other, Quraysh would not have allowed Hubal to share the sanctuary with him - not because they were proto-monotheists, but PRECISELY BECAUSE THEY WERE PAGNAS.(Emphasis Blofeld's)”

Further, in declaring why this is a demanded obligation for muslims to believe in the Prophet, obey Him and follow His Sunna (example)..

"When 'Umar looked at the Black Stone, he said, "You are a stone and can neither help nor harm. If I had not seen the Messenger of Allah kiss you, I would not
have kissed you." Then he kissed it."

This is not referring to Mohammed pre revelation but as ordained prophet of Allah.

That people want to believe this nonsense that it has links to Abraham and that Allah is Elohim/YHWH's name is just too absurd for anyone with a splattering of an education and the ability to read what is expressly stated without choking on his early morning muffins!!


1 October 2013 at 10:13  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Your Grace,

I see, thank you for your explanation. I had no idea what was going on. Even if I wanted to assume another online identity, which I don't, I'm not sure I'd know how to.

1 October 2013 at 10:51  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Avast Ye Blog Lubbers.

Captain Uncle Brian did Parlay

"In answer to your first query, I wasn't consciously quoting, or even alluding to, any other source. (Was I Bilge-sucking or are ye three sheets to the wind ) Why do you ask? (Was the captain 'Hornswaggling ') Am I missing your point? (Blimey!)

And in answer to your second, I was born and brought up in the C of E but am now, and have been for nearly twenty years, an "RC" (I be not in possession of 'Letters of Marque'). But my views on denominations are not divisive, quite the opposite (Savvy? Your Grace). I tend to see the churches as one Church. Wherever two or three, and all that (We all being in possession of pieces of eight). Some people swim the Tiber, others cross Lambeth Bridge, and there are even some who go canoeing in Lake Geneva (All hand hoay and Batten down the hatches!)... But we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.(Blow me down! It be a veritable blood brotherhood.)"

Your Grace said

"Your IP address was not available"
Perhaps the fellow is withholding it so he can download the directors cut of Mel Gibson's The Passion of Christ from the pirate bay, without getting annoying letters from those chaps at the anti-piracy group FACT..Arrrr .

"this blog is assaulted daily by a nuisance (There be a plentiful bounty on his head for those that spot the blog buccaneer!) who creates multiple identities (He be scallwag and a master of disguise like Commodore Clouseau but his parrot leaves feathers all over His Grace's blog) and trolls every thread (deserving of the cat o nine tails and a short walk on the plank), constantly banging on about the deficiencies of the Church of England and the perfection of the Church of Rome (He refuses to belay and He be in the employ of His treacherous Eminence Cardinal Richelieu and seductively assisted by his Scrumpet, Lady Cressida de Winter). Each new incarnation is being summarily deleted, which is tiresome.(His Grace be sick of sending him to Fiddlers Green..Next time he be made to dance the hempen jig, Keelhauled and a killick attached to his nether regions for good measure...He not be survivin' this. There be no Sweet trade for those plying their trade on this ship..AAARGGGHHHH. Yo-ho-ho)

Captain Blofeld's blogging Almanac

1 October 2013 at 11:15  
Blogger Len said...

Aye... though they be trying to climb aboard to join their scurrilious mates after being marooned the good Cap`n will soon sort out these scurvy dogs and set them adrift on the tiber.

1 October 2013 at 11:45  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...


We know HG keeps a clean ship. It's constantly swabbed down with the Word, Matey.



1 October 2013 at 11:53  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

I appreciate that the volatility of Britain’s Muslim community means that Archbishop Justin must choose his words with care lest his churches go up in flames but he should not describe Islam as an Abrahamic faith. By doing so, he confers on Islam a respectability it does not merit and he demeans Judaism and Christianity.

1 October 2013 at 12:03  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Extra Sensory, and not to forget Tiddles,

Many thanks for your enlightening, erudite expansion of my uncharacteristically terse references to "Abrahamic Faiths".

However I shan't be following you and others into "Pieces o' Eight, Yo-ho-ho" and all that type of language, as it's a long time since I read, rather avidly I recall, "Treasure Island" and I'm simply not capable of such linguistic dexterity. So despite my solid yeoman West Country ancestry, never far from the North Devon cliffs and the briny, I'll struggle along in my best impression of standard English. But do please continue, as it's bloody good fun ! And please don't forget the bottle of rum, as I'm partial to a noggin in my morning coffee, especially after some physical work, outside !

1 October 2013 at 12:23  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

David H

"And please don't forget the bottle of rum," It be a noggin of the good grog ye is after? ;-)


1 October 2013 at 12:56  
Blogger IanCad said...

Has this thread gone off topic or what?
Allow me to join in and blame Ernesty.

For several years we had an older relative living with us.

He was much taken by the !935 version of Treasure Island; so much so that his conversation was largely made up of dialogue from that film.

Toward the end of his life he was given a diagnosis indicating terminal cancer.
His immediate response was: "'I've been slipped the Black Spot!"

His legacy lingers. Recently, after one of our frequent squabbles, I offered my wife the olive branch. Her response: "Away with you man! I'd as soon touch carrion," recalling the scene at Flint's Stockade when Captain Smollett rejected Long John Silver's sly request for a truce.

1 October 2013 at 14:36  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...


"Allow me to join in and blame Ernesty." Twas not I but Captain Uncle Brian.

"Toward the end of his life he was given a diagnosis indicating terminal cancer.
His immediate response was: "'I've been slipped the Black Spot!"

His legacy lingers. Recently, after one of our frequent squabbles, I offered my wife the olive branch. Her response: "Away with you man! I'd as soon touch carrion," recalling the scene at Flint's Stockade when Captain Smollett rejected Long John Silver's sly request for a truce."

Gaaarrhh! A sorry landlubbers tale and not alf and what a magnificent family of pirates they be in your clandestine family tree. Shiver me 'timbers' matey!

Captn Blofeld of the Pugwashed.

1 October 2013 at 15:13  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Blowers, you old rogue. Are you a retired hat maker by chance ?

1 October 2013 at 18:43  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...


A decrepit retired old manager with nobody to supervise anymore..My hat goes off to His Grace, trying to bring order to the diverse cabal in residence?

Mind You, His Nibs gets a bit misty eyed and choked up with emotion during the Tory Conference season, by believing and promoting all the guff these chancers promise ("getting rid of dangerous foreigners", can't wait to see how this one plays out?), rather than we, who see it merely as the rehearsal for the coming pantomime season.

Even had Barry Obama quoting Red Ed tonight with the 'We can do better' line...It's like they all employ the same tired script writers.

HG must be the eternal optimist?


1 October 2013 at 19:51  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Blowers, old man, your chipper reappearance no doubt belies the health issues you suffered of late. Keep it up, that man !

1 October 2013 at 20:25  
Blogger Darth Vader said...

His Grace is correct to feel the disturbance within the Force. I have felt it myself ; a presence I have not felt since.... regardless, to watch a capable villain such as Blowers being reduced to the scraps of jokes reagarding Long John Dodo, reduces this Dark Sith Lord to tears! He should be ruling the Earth by now.

1 October 2013 at 21:27  
Blogger Darth Vader said...

With the Office of Inspector General as his Deputy... in the true spirit of our new coalition politics.

1 October 2013 at 21:31  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Hmmm Darth Vader, eh ?

Don't we know you by some other name, honoured space monkey, and did not the Inspector suggest a five year mission to you that involves boldly going from
your bedroom to explore this strange world, to seek out human life and our civilisation, and to even meet a woman. In the flesh that is...

1 October 2013 at 21:56  
Blogger Rachel and Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1 October 2013 at 22:07  
Blogger bluedog said...

OIG @ 22.54, anticipating Ernsty's nautical eruption, reports, '...used to be a British battleship.

Would that be HMS Malaya, a member of the Fifth Battle Squadron at Jutland, no less? I fear we have forgotten the lessons of Jutland and much, much more besides.

1 October 2013 at 22:11  
Blogger Rachel and Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Bluedog,

Don't forget HMS 'Iron Duke' either...

1 October 2013 at 22:16  
Blogger bluedog said...

Indeed not, Rachel & Hannah, although this communicant is more a battle-cruiser man, by temperament. You know, fast and flashy. If he was a ship and not a dog the writer would probably be HMS Hood.

Anyway, aren't you supposed to be on holiday?

1 October 2013 at 22:28  
Blogger Rachel and Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1 October 2013 at 22:51  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Greetings Hannah. Dodo and his paramour will be missed by this man; do mention that next time they, well, criticises you,...

Bluedog. Malaya, a super-dreadnaught no less. A marvellous design !

1 October 2013 at 22:57  
Blogger Rachel and Hannah Kavanagh said...

Blue Dog,

PS- Anyways, we have a nice lamb shank bone for you to nibble on, as well as a few tasty chews;to be wolfed down by a good glug of our homemade Kosher Beer...

1 October 2013 at 22:59  
Blogger Rachel and Hannah Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1 October 2013 at 23:03  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Office of Inspector General said...

"Blowers, old man, your chipper reappearance no doubt belies the health issues you suffered of late. Keep it up, that man !"

OIG, me old fruit, Had an Xray- nothing, Blood test-nowt, so off for me MRI scan.

Shocked at first when the quack suggested I take the scan. Thought it meant Mentally Retarded Imbecile so i took offence and it took matron and two stiff G & T's to calm me down but the old butcher said he had explained it in depth to me, then moaned about me never listening to him, or something. I don't know, I wasn't really paying attention.

Heard the sad but fairly obvious news about that Tingey chap.

It appears he has been diagnosed as a dyslexic, agnostic, insomniac?

He apparently lies awake at night wondering if there really is a dog.

Tingey said he can't remember whether he's got dyslexia or dyscalculia, but it's definitely eon of the three.

It's a known fact that statistically 10 in 2 people suffer from Dyscalculia or so Tingey wreckins ;-)


2 October 2013 at 00:19  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

His Grace reported: "... this blog is assaulted daily by a nuisance who creates multiple identities and trolls every thread, constantly banging on about the deficiencies of the Church of England and the perfection of the Church of Rome. Each new incarnation is being summarily deleted, which is tiresome."

In light of these disappointing revelations, I have no choice but to withdraw my advocacy and pleas for conditional clemency on behalf of the said Nuisance who acted without my being informed of his intentions or actions. The case docket is now available.

2 October 2013 at 01:34  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

A refua shlemah, a complete and speedy recovery, dear Mr Blofeld! I trust that the leech will find nothing of concern when he stuffs you in that diabolical mechanism. But have no fear; there is no pain, or "discomfort" as the quacks like to say.

Misses Rachel and Hannah, a splendid blog, indeed. Congratulations! I'm especially intrigued by the promise of your Sephardi recipes. I cook quite frequently, almost always for Shabbat and typically in the Balkan Sephardi style, which is closer to the Turkish cuisine, but has elements of Ashkenasi cookery. I'm also fond of fiery Indian dishes and make my own curries by roasting the whole spices, seasoning leaves and the little peppers, then grinding them and using them immediately. What a difference fresh spices make!

2 October 2013 at 02:18  
Blogger Rachel and Hannah Kavanagh said...

Avi, yes we make our own bharat and harrisa pastes. The knack with curries is that some mix yoguart with meat, so we use alternatives, such as tomateo . We also adapt english food to kosher, so we can stil have sausages, scotch eggs etc, just without pork.:)

2 October 2013 at 08:06  
Blogger bluedog said...

A fine bone, the lamb shank, M/s Hannah. Thx for keeping the hound in mind. Not sure about the Kosher home brew. Is it incredibly sweet? I'm sure you would have the sugar right, though.

2 October 2013 at 12:55  
Blogger Rachel and Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Bluedog,

No, it isn't sweet, it's more of a real ale. We've named is 'Kosher beer'. As an aside, Avi can correct me, but I think in the really, really Orthodox circles wine (to be Kosher) has to be made by Jews, but that doesn't apply to beer making or spirits such as Whiskey /Whisky (as none of these are made out of grapes).

2 October 2013 at 14:03  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Hi Hannah, all Orthodox here, including modern and even many of the Conservative stick to kosher wines. Rabbi Loew, aka the Maharal, of Prague's Golem legend fame, tightened up the rules on that. What some, but not all, Orthodox will avoid is whiskies that have been aged in sherry casks. Others hold that the quantity of wine in a cask is negligible, well under 1/60th, and it is no longer really wine.

2 October 2013 at 15:43  
Blogger Rachel and Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Avi,

Thanks for that clarification. Incidentally, we drink 100% Israeli wines now. They aren't cheap, after imports and taxes are added on, but it is quality and not quantity. So that's our little plug for Israel today (no 'boycott' for us).

2 October 2013 at 15:58  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Canada has a free trade agreement with Israel and they are as cheap or expensive as all the other overtaxed imports.

2 October 2013 at 17:04  
Blogger Rachel and Hannah Kavanagh said...

Hi Avi,

It's the UK's internal taxes that's the problem, rather than free trade issues. The tax is about £2.00 per 75 cl bottle, plus 20% VAT on the sale price (there are also taxes on spirits, beer, cigs etc). So the cheapest wine I've ever seem in the shop is about £5 (I think about $10) and 20 Marlbros cost about £8.50.

PS- I like the Adir Shiraz from Galilee, which costs circa £25 ($50) a bottle.

Dunno how much that'd be in Canada, but if you've got low taxes on wines good for you (:

2 October 2013 at 17:29  
Blogger Julia Gasper said...

Uncle Brian,
Sorry i have only just seen your question about the phrase "Abrahamic religions". i have done a search in Google books and can find no example of "Abrahamic religion" being used before 1969 to mean anything apart from Judaism. In the period 1700-1960 "Abrahamic faith" meant either Judaism, or in a few rare cases, a fervent trust in God like that of Abraham.
The earliest example I can find of the view that there are three "Abrahamic religions" is in a book called "Hath God Said?" by Elliott Nesch, dated 1969.

4 October 2013 at 00:03  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...


"A refua shlemah, a complete and speedy recovery, dear Mr Blofeld!"

Thanks for the kind wishes.

Currently on Tramodol, next one up is morphine but it does not ease the pain along my spine in any way but it sure...zzzzzzz..oh err, makes you sleepy.

Shalom, my fine lad.


4 October 2013 at 13:19  

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