Monday, June 16, 2014

Iraq - this is no time to blame and shame

This mass roadside execution is what Sunni/ISIS/ISIL jihadists do to their Shia cousins. God alone knows what appalling fate awaits the Christians.

In a reasoned justificatory apologetic, Tony Blair says: "We have to liberate ourselves from the notion that ‘we’ have caused this. We haven't. We can argue as to whether our policies at points have helped or not; and whether action or inaction is the best policy and there is a lot to be said on both sides. But the fundamental cause of the crisis lies within the region not outside it."

General Sir Michael Rose lays the blame squarely at the feet of Tony Blair: "It goes without saying that if you start a war, you should be sure that the end result will be demonstrably better than the situation prior to the conflict," he said. "Only someone who has lost touch with reality could possibly claim Iraq today is more stable or that life has become better for its inhabitants."

The Guardian goes for Saddam: 'If there has to be a hierarchy of blame for Iraq, however, it must surely begin with Saddam, who brutalised his own society, embroiled it in a terrible war with Iran, wasted its resources, and provoked the world by his aggression against Kuwait.'

The UK's former ambassador to the US Sir Christopher Meyer said the handling of the campaign against Saddam was “perhaps the most significant reason” for the sectarian violence now ripping through Iraq. “We are reaping what we sowed in 2003. This is not hindsight. We knew in the run-up to war that the overthrow of Saddam Hussein would seriously destabilise Iraq after 24 years of his iron rule,” he said.

The media are full of claim and counter-claim; there are patchy historical analyses, superficial religious overviews and a plethora of variable truth assertions, each designed to bring a degree of political perspective and sociological understanding to the chaos that is engulfing the region. Innocent Iraqis - Kurd, Shia and Christian - are being systematically 'cleansed' from the land, and our political and military leaders are busy blaming and shaming.

One understands the instinct to deflect blame and self-justify, of course. But reflexive essays and philosophical theorising do nothing to resolve the gross violations of human dignity we are now witnessing. The West has spent so long defining human rights in economic and social terms to satisfy our cushy cosmopolitan universalism that we have lost sight of the fact that our most fundamental notions of freedom are simply not shared by millions in the Middle East. The moment that Saudi Arabia abstained on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1948, it ceased to be universal. It was Article 18 of that Declaration - enshrining the right to change one's religion - which was problematic for the Saudis, then the only explicitly Islamic UN member state.

Now there are many more Islamic states which are full members of the UN, but detached and unconvincingly demurring from certain freedoms afforded by the 'Universal' Declaration. We tolerate this tension in the name of globalisation, but the problems of relativism will not be overcome by cross-cultural empirical research to reveal and understand common patterns of belief.

Before this becomes just another theoretical essay leading to yet another moral blind alley on the ethics of discriminating between legitimate and illegitimate uses of force, let us pause to reflect - not on who or what is to blame and why or how, but on the need for peace, sacrificial mercy and moral leadership in a world in which the foundations upon which the moral beliefs of the past have disappeared without any compelling replacement emerging.

Those who are dying don't care of Bush, Blair, Obama, Saddam or Satan himself are to blame: they are confronted with evil, and the state is implicated. In 1991 we rushed to aid the Iraqi Kurds in the north and Shi'ite Muslims in the south by imposing 'no-fly zones'. In 2011 we intervened swiftly in Libya "to prevent a bloodbath". When ISIS have done with the Shia, they will surely turn their murderous zealotry on the Christians, whom they hate because they fear. Do we really do nothing now but play a pathetic game of blame and shame?


Blogger Father David said...

Surely the roots of this current disaster go well back beyond Bush, Blair and Saddam, as far back even as Tuesday, 29th May, 1453 with the Fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans.

16 June 2014 at 08:00  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

Beyond tears.

Matthew 24 and other Scripture passages make it clear that history is going to get very grim indeed as it draws to an end which God has foreseen.

Jesus said 'do not be alarmed for all these things must take place.

This is an awful thing to say but I suspect thst God is letting this happen with the whole world watching so that people can see the true nsture of Islam.

Having said that, it would be satisfying to see a few dozen well placed 500lb cluster bombs fall on an ISIS post bloodbath knees up. But that won't change much.

16 June 2014 at 08:05  
Blogger Ivan said...

Its a certainty that many of these brave executioners, are 'Westerners'. They are coming to a shire new you.

16 June 2014 at 08:18  
Blogger Ivan said...

At times like this, I wish I had not skipped National Service all those years ago.

16 June 2014 at 08:20  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

This barbarism is intrinsic to Islam itself.

Always has been, always will be.

If the boot were on the other foot, would the Shias be any more tolerant of the Sunnis? And experience has shown that both groups happily attack Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and especially Jews at any opportunity.

Such savagery can only be ended by getting rid of Islam, possibly in the same way we got rid on Nazism.

There is no possiblity of reform or moderation, because once it has been reformed, Islam ceases to be Islam, and becomes another heresy to be exterminated, eg Bahais and Ahmadiyyas.

16 June 2014 at 08:26  
Blogger Ivan said...

Well you are wrong Sean, there are differences in degree between the Shia and the Sunni. Similar to the difference between 100 and 1000. When the Shias acquired their reputation for Islamic fanaticism during the unprovoked Iran-Iraq War of 1980-88, they were at the receiving of a genocidal war conducted by Saddam Hussein. At that time, Saddam was a dear friend of the West and the interim depredations of Sunni terrorism and dawa, centered around the leadership of Saudi Arabia were studiously ignored in the West. Their reputation for terrorism increased, when the Hizballah proved to be a match for the Israelis in South Lebanon.

Well the Christians in Lebanon don't seem to think so, and seeing who their true friends are have turned to song in gratitude.

Sir VS Naipaul, long ago in his Among the Believers predicted even in the face of Shia fundamentalism - the book was written in 1979 - that the world has not seen the true face of Islamic terrorism as the Sunnis were quiescent. That changed quite dramatically with the Algerian elections and the rise of the GIA.

Frankly given that most of the victims of Islamic terrorism are Muslims themselves, I would expect that they would get a handle on things in a decade or so as the Pakistanis are starting to.

What we are seeing is terrifying but in sheer numbers they don't match what was going in Iraq and Algeria in those days.

16 June 2014 at 09:08  
Blogger Ivan said...

... receiving end ...

16 June 2014 at 09:09  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Yes one is beyond grief, leaving just a numb sense of the reality of what unfolds. The pain must roll around that country in waves and waves.

Human rights, currently much beloved and trusted by the metropolitan elite as the arbiter and solution to all problems, was the product of a society that had experienced Christianity, with its Sermon on the Mount, the Renaissance and The Reformation, and had along the way developed to varying degrees an ability to tolerate, even respect differences.

In the absence of a such abilities to rub along with differences, the strong, hopefully not too tyrannical leader, is the only way to preserve a semblance of law and order. Until the west learns that simple point we will continue to meddle, destabilise and then wring our hands in denial and surprise, when carnage spills out. Hopefully lessons will be have been learnt and remembered, as the west has a disastrously short collective memory.

Mr Blair should cease his squeaking, reflect and consider what he helped unleash before uttering any further "not me Gov." statements.

This current resurgence of a very old, world tension is now near the forefront of many peoples minds, and those tensions are not getting to become any less acute, I believe. It all represents the working out of Humanity in rebellion against God, and ultimately it is only God that can steer us away from our own destructiveness. But at a practical level we also need to look to our own borders and defences.

16 June 2014 at 09:21  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

This is how Islam was spread in the first place - Violence is demanded by Mein Koranpf from 7thC onward. The Sunni/Shia schism is almost as old.

Iraq and Iran has an eight year ding-dong in the 1980s - it changed nothing.

Shed no tears infidels; 'Stay out of our Muslim lands' they say - No problemo Mustaffa - in this case they're bloody-well spot on.

No matter how disgusting - this is not a fight for us. Sunni and Shia were at it long, long before Bush and Blair, (the political equivalent of the Chuckle Brothers).
Long before Sykes-Picot and long before the State of Israel and the would-be plastic Palestinian Band.

Where is the voice of peace of reason from the voice of Islam the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation?

Not a damned squeak - No Jews or Israel target involved; no interest see? - YET!

16 June 2014 at 09:29  
Blogger Ivan said...

Dreadnaught, neither the Sunnis or the Shias invited outsiders into their conflicts. So maybe if the West had let them duke it out, some kind of equilibrium would have been found long ago. But two irritating and mendacious bees in the American bonnet, Saudi Arabia and the Israeli lobby could not let things be without getting the Americans involved.

16 June 2014 at 09:44  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...


Kosovo, Kuwait, Libya, Syria they all wanted infidel blood on their ground and some got it.

Forgotten how they all cheered us in Basra? - then shot us in the back!

Forgotten how much money is doled out to Muslim countries who take it with open sticky hands and use it build palaces and nuclear weapons?

16 June 2014 at 09:52  
Blogger Jay Bee said...

Western leaders failed to realise that Dictators in Muslim countries are handy to stop Islamic extremists from gaining power. Removing them has left a vacuum because most Muslims don't do democracy, only tribalism and sectarianism. Iraq and Libya are consequentially chaotic.

A strongman is needed as shown recently by the military in Egypt who moved decisively to crush the Muslim Brotherhood. To the Western mindset imposing anything other than democratic rule is unthinkable but we need to learn that rubbing noses in democracy does not a democrat make. Once the West pulls out, the natives revert to sectarian default mode and extremist groups emerge.

It is true that Dictators are repressive and commit mass murder at times but compared to the blood crazed mindset of Islamic Anarchists they are a lesser evil. Western armies in Muslim lands are not the solution and have only served to further the persecution of Christianity to the point of extinction.

As for Blair, no shred of credibility remains. He might as well join a monastery. Preferably a silent Order.

16 June 2014 at 09:59  
Blogger Ivan said...

Dreadnaught, they needed 'you'* in Yemen, Mali, Morrocco, Nigeria and Chechnya too. How come 'you'* didn't turn up. And why didn't 'you'* didn't stay and rebuild Somalia? Face it if doesn't involve oil or percieved threats to the precious Israelis, nobody gives a f**k about the Muslims and they know it.

'you'* used with rhetorical licence of course.

16 June 2014 at 10:03  
Blogger Martin Marprelate said...

Enough of the armchair generalship! 'The wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God' (James 1:20). The politicians can make a big enough mess of things without Christians spurring them on.

If anyone wants to help the Christian in the Middle East, he can best do that by sending donations to Barnabus Fund or Open Doors or M.E.R.F.

16 June 2014 at 10:03  
Blogger Preacher said...

Why does the West get involved? An American general got it right years ago when asked about the conflict in Vietnam. "It's all about oil & other minerals. If they were just growing carrots, we wouldn't be there!".

It,s not about truth or faith & who is right or wrong. God's not in it either "Thou shall not Kill!".
Religion is the excuse that power hungry men have used for centuries to attract the gullible to fight & die for them to rise to power.
It's twin brother is of course the extreme politics of the left & the right that feed the fears of the people in the middle & allow the verbal siren voices of the 'rest' to gain power by fear & deception in the Western Nations.
Take away the fear & we no longer need the 'Protection' of the nanny state & the E.U Big Brother nursery.

16 June 2014 at 10:10  
Blogger bluedog said...

A remarkable video, Ivan @ 0908, many thanks. While the message appals, the sophistication of the orchestra, production and the audience comes as a considerable surprise.

As to the bees in the US bonnet, surely we can draw a distinction between Israel and the fiefdom of the House of Saud. The insecurity of the Israelis is in a completely different class to that of the Saudi monarchy, and understandably so.

The Saudi monarchy has two extraordinary assets that underpin its position, firstly the holy places of Islam, giving soft power leverage over the global Muslim population, and secondly the world's largest oil reserves, giving financial leverage over the rest of the world.

This communicant often muses that if you were part of a nation and a religion that lost 6 million people within living memory, the last place you should resettle is Israel. Why? Because it's on the land bridge between Africa, Asia and Europe, and just about every imperial army in human history has marched through the land of Israel, at some point in its rise or fall.

By concentrating so much of the Jewish population in such a small and vulnerable territory, the risks to that people are greatly increased, notwithstanding the injunction 'Never again'.

16 June 2014 at 10:13  
Blogger Ivan said...

Dreadnaught, they needed 'you'* in Yemen, Mali, Morrocco, Nigeria and Chechnya too. How come 'you'* didn't turn up. And why didn't 'you'* didn't stay and rebuild Somalia? Face it if doesn't involve oil or percieved threats to the precious Israelis, nobody gives a f**k about the Muslims and they know it.

'you'* used with rhetorical licence of course.

16 June 2014 at 10:14  
Blogger bluedog said...

Father David @ 0800, the Fall of Constantinople in 1453 was simply a mopping up exercise, the Ottomans had worked their way around Constantinople long before. No, the rot set in with the civil war that raged for nine years after the defeat at Manzikert in 1071. A weakness that was aggravated by the disgraceful sacking by the Fourth Crusade in 1204.

Given the relatively short span of modern history, it is intriguing to overlay the timeline of the fall of the Byzantine empire against our own situation. Manzikert to the Fall is 382 years. Take 382 from 2014 and you are back in 1632, before the English Civil War. So far, so good, but going forwards, what have we done that may lead to our doom by 2396? The answer is sadly obvious. Just as Muslims envied Constantinople, which represented wealth and achievement of which they could only dream, so today we see the exactly same, but closer to home.

16 June 2014 at 10:30  
Blogger Ivan said...

bluedog,... love her eyebrows. Its a new world and the Israelis have to find their own place in it. Sometimes one has to look at the picture from the Arab point of view, and see that from their vantage not one single substantive concession, has been obtained from the Israelis for all the talk. As I mentioned before I was at one time a 110% Zionist, for what its worth. It may well be that as Bismarck said, some questions are settled only with blood and iron. But till then what I've noticed - is that any negotiations with the Israelis as currently configured are useless and would naturally be regarded as the efforts of Uncle Toms by the Arabs.

16 June 2014 at 10:32  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

16 June 2014 at 10:35  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...


How come 'you'* didn't turn up?

'*' Quite.

Maybe now people will begin to accept that Islam is not a religion - it's a political cancer in clerical clothes.

Your reference to Islamic 'troubles' elsewhere is irrelevant and the list way too short; next you may be saying why didn't we back Assaad because he's nice to Christians - and maybe that's why Putin did. He learned about Islam in Afghan, while we armed the Taliban.

16 June 2014 at 10:35  
Blogger Paul said...

Ivan, I take a offence to your comment regarding the Israelis. Name another middle eastern state that has democracy as well established as Israel? But for Israel, there would be none.

16 June 2014 at 10:40  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

The good news is that President Obama has come up with a masterly solution to the challenge posed by ISIS as its victorious army advances towards Baghdad. He is asking all Iraqis to please learn to be nice to each other. Not even Dame Edna Everage could have done better. The New York Times reports:

The White House’s emphasis, when Mr. Obama returns to Washington on Monday from a weekend in Southern California, will be on prodding Iraq’s leaders to form a new national unity government.

The United States, this official said, has asked Iraq’s prime minister, Nuri Kamal al-Maliki, a Shiite, to work with the Kurds, to seek to persuade the disaffected Sunni minority that the next government will be an “ally not an adversary” and to overhaul Iraq’s routed army. All three groups must be adequately represented in Baghdad, he said.

So that’s all right, then.

16 June 2014 at 10:44  
Blogger Guy Jones said...

@ Paul and Ivan

Israel is working with its neighbour Arabs all the time. Behind the scenes I imagine the relationship is very cordial as all business relations must needs be.

I heard that Egypt is buying natural gas from the [evil Zionist entity/ the miracle that is Israel] delete as appropriate.

16 June 2014 at 10:49  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

Well chaps if we leave this to Ivan, Preacher, Martin Marplate et al, we've already lost this war. This is a war that was started not in Iraq or by Israel or the west or Britain or America or 'the Zionists', but on the 9th September 2001 by fanatical terrorists.

These fundamentalist terrorist Jihadists will NOT stop until every person on this planet is converted to their ideology or dead. It is simple as that.

If, like me, you believe in the freedoms of the west, of democracy and justice, then you will understand that sometimes it is necessary to fight for these issues and go to war.

Iraq is the latest stage in which this war is going to be fought. If nothing is done then Iraq will come under the dictatorship of a regime which does want to establish a global caliphate.

Next in line is Israel. If she were to fall, that would be the beginning of a greater conflict, not the end of it. But this time around, unlike in other eras, the children of Israel will not go down without a fight & the invaders would pay a heavy price in blood for such a conflict.

Likewise Great Britain fought for her very existence and liberty in 2 bloody world wars in which millions of our forefathers and relatives, fought and died for those very same freedoms which are now being challenged and destroyed across this world.

I don't want war or violence . But sometimes going to war is the price that the people who love liberty and democracy have to pay to secure our homes and our future. I say this with a heaven and burdened heart. It will be my children and yours doing the fighting.

16 June 2014 at 10:49  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...


Rubbish. The Israelis from year dot have always been on the side of peace & compromise . Every single war that Israel has fought have been defensive ones (which why, incidentally, they are mandated by Jewish law). Every single time, whether it was the Peel commission in the 1930s, the partition plan in the 1940s or the suggestion after 1967 by Golda Meir of 'land for peace', Israel has generously offered to discuss peace. The Arabs have refused at each and every single time; in fact one Israeli Prime Minister lost his life in his cause for peace. During the last golden opportunity for peace in the dying days of the Clinton Presidency there was a moment for a historic peace treaty. WHO BLEW THAT? Not the Israelis.

16 June 2014 at 11:00  
Blogger Ivan said...

Dreadnaught, we've dealt with Islamists in India and South East Asia. Nobody is fazed by them. My solution is to let them find things out themselves, as in Pakistan now. Unlike you, I see this as a reflection of Islam in irreversible decline. They can neither feed themselves or come into the modern world. I give them about a decade, to clean up their act.

Paul, Switzerland is a democracy too, and was a superior one until they gave women the right to vote. So is Singapore where I live. How does that change anything? Suppose Israel were not, and is a theocracy, would that mean that you would abandon them? Democracy or no, means nothing when it comes to survival.

16 June 2014 at 11:02  
Blogger Ivan said...

David, and who did that Israeli PM succumb to, a secret Arab no doubt. Also to avoid spamming this thread further, the history of that sideshow is spelt out in the links in

16 June 2014 at 11:08  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

This war was started by Muhammad 1300 years ago. Our ancestors resisted Muhammaden armies and saved Christendom. Now we have abandoned it ourselves and the dechristianised West is falling.

Yes we defend ourselves. Step 1 is to recognise Islam for what it is. Step 2 to stop helping it grow. That means thst Mulsim immigration into Europe must fall to zero immediately and permanently.

We can't do either until we leave the EU and repeal the diversity agenda.

This won't happen as too many of us are blind to reality. Doomed.

16 June 2014 at 11:09  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

16 June 2014 at 11:20  
Blogger Ivan said...

Guy Jones, isn't that the solution? Kiss kissy and make nice. When it suited their purpose the Israelis could deal with the Iranians in the 1980s in the Iran-Contra affair. But when it does not, the Iranians are evil incarnate. It is this this kind of nonsense that I was referring to.

16 June 2014 at 11:21  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

16 June 2014 at 11:21  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

16 June 2014 at 11:23  
Blogger Ivan said...

David, I was referring to input from my side. Keep firing away, dude.

16 June 2014 at 11:23  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...


I'm not 'spamming' anything. I was countering your ridiculous idiotic claim that Israel has not wanted to come to peace with her Arab neigbours. That one of her leaders paid the ultimate price for this, from his own, puts rest to your assertion that Israel will not follow the path of peace. Pace this with Arafat- a coward- who refused to take the peace deal offered to him because he feared for his own political position. Even though the Israelis courageous offered him everything that was being demanded, more than was deserved and more than what expected, with the return for this Israelis being the simple notion of peace, or Israeli civilians not being murdered, ripped to shreds by suicide bombers or being under the constant threat of invasion.

PS - as for your reference to uncle toms, have you read the news over the past couple of days? The terrorists have kidnapped 3 lads, students. If you were Prime Minister of Singapore, would you be willing or able to sit down in good faith,with people who did this?

PPS- Ivan, I'm sure you are aware that Israel has a peace treaty with Egypt. Funny that, because when the ink dried from it, the rest of the Arab world ostracized Egypt. So much for the Israelis not being prepared to sign a peace treaty.

PPPS- I have no desire to get into the ins and outs of the Israeli-Arab conflict. I'm merely pointing out to you how baseless your views actually are.


16 June 2014 at 11:25  
Blogger Irene's Daughter said...

Man was made to mourn: A Dirge
Robert Burns

Many and sharp the num'rous ills
Inwoven with our frame!
More pointed still we make ourselves
Regret, remorse, and shame!
And man, whose heav'n-erected face
The smiles of love adorn, -
Man's inhumanity to man
Makes countless thousands mourn!

What we see today, and not just in Iraq, is the outworking of a world that has turned its back on Almighty God, (And I mean the Trinitarian Jehovah and not the usurper Allah) who is the only source of the self-sacrificing love that alone can deal with the rottenness at the core of humanity.

Only if a lot of individual men and women let go of what they want for themselves (whether it is land, oil, free sex, a new car or whatever) and consider helping to meet the needs of others, including their enemies, will things begin to get better for all. Sadly Scripture tells us it will only get worse until Jesus returns.

Come Lord Jesus, Come. Please.

16 June 2014 at 11:36  
Blogger Ivan said...

Sorry David I have to go. I am familiar with your arguments as I used to make them myself. No hard feelings friend.

16 June 2014 at 11:41  
Blogger Father David said...

As Iraq's modern borders were only established as recently as 1920, maybe it is time to think about restoring Kurdistan to our present day Atlases?

16 June 2014 at 12:03  
Blogger Martin Marprelate said...

David Kavanagh wrote:-
Well chaps if we leave this to Ivan, Preacher, Martin Marplate (sic) et al, we've already lost this war.
Well, David, giving Johnny Foreigner a taste of cold steel doesn't seem to have worked terrifically well in Iraq or Afghanistan up to now. They say that one sign of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

'"Not by might, not by power, but by My Spirit," says the LORD of Hosts.' The only problem is that the Holy Spirit has withdrawn Himself from about 95% of the churches in Britain and Europe because the Gospel is not preached in them. The current Islamic revival is God's judgement upon the West (cf. Habakkuk 1:5ff) and it needs to be met with repentance and prayer, not with bullets and missiles.

16 June 2014 at 12:17  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

There are some things that need to be admitted.

1. Whatever the cost of Gulf War Ii, the benefit is that there is no possibility of a nuclear-armed Saddam sitting in the center of the Middle East. The purpose of the war was ultimately not to "make things better in Iraq" but to remove that risk. It's easy to focus on the problem at hand and forget the problem that might have been. And the problem that might have been was in this case much much worse.

2. The Islamists who are creating such havoc in their own countries are removing their ability to function and compete in the modern world. The result will be a relative decline in Arab power. The reason Saddam would have been so dangerous is that he represented the possibility of a semi-modern regionally large stare with a semi modern military possessing the ability to project power in the old fashioned way of states. The Islamists aren't going to create a large state. They are going to fracture into feudalism.

3. The people who are shedding crocodile tears over GWII aren't actually all that intetested in Iraq. They are interested in delegitimizing Gulf War II. It is truly amazing to hear people suggest that Saddam was relatively benign and perhaps should have been left in power. These are the same people who were outraged - OUTRAGED - over Bosnia. What happened in Bosnia was a parking ticket compared to Saddam's Iraq.

4. The attempt to Westernize the Arab world and make it safe for civilization had to be done. Otherwise significant cultural forces in the West would keep pushing the option. Now we know it can't be done. Ultimately the only way to fix the Arab world is to de-Islamify it. The West has to figure out how to oppose Islam the same way it opposed Communism despite the Western understanding of Religious freedom. That might be an intractable problem. But the problem at least has to be addressed.


16 June 2014 at 12:20  
Blogger Guy Jones said...

@ Ivan

You seem to have a problem with Israel acting in its own self interest? In fact you seem to have a problem with Israel. I wonder why this is so?

I don't see the Israelis as double-dealing, but rather as realists in a near impossible situation

16 June 2014 at 12:21  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Father David

You have put your finger on a question about post-1918 history that I have never seen satisfactorily addressed. When Britain and France were carving up the Ottoman Empire and installing one newly-invented royal family here and another one there, they both, apparently, discarded at the outset any possibility of giving the Kurds a nation-state of their own. I have no idea why they made that decision. Have you? Were they simply giving in to Arab pressure, and if, so, why?

16 June 2014 at 12:39  
Blogger Sidney Deane said...

The ISIS fundamentalists are just doing what God told them to do.

How can we argue with that?

16 June 2014 at 12:55  
Blogger IanCad said...

You have the heart of it Irene's Daughter.

Leaving aside for now the shaming and blaming of who caused what and when, and, if punishment should be visited on those guilty of misleading or deceiving - if such was the case. -

I will instead address the "Fearful, fatalistic apathy" of our Muslim fellow mortals, referred to in a previous thread.

From what I have seen in the pictures there are a lot of healthy, strong young men who have given up in the face of ferocity.

My Goodness! Most pictures show them with their hands unrestrained. Complying in a most undignified way with the whims of their captors.

There are far more prisoners than guards/executioners.

Were these Western fellows I do not believe we would see them going so meekly to their deaths.

16 June 2014 at 12:58  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...


As you wish, if don't want to spar, then that is fine with me.


Good points as usual.

16 June 2014 at 13:04  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...


This isn't about 'johnny foreigner' or some form of colonial campaign, but akin to the world wars fought in past eras. As I said, you can leave Iraq to her fate, watch the slaughter from your tv screen. Then watch as other moderate Islamic nations fall to this extremism. Then Israel. Then Europe. Britain's next. You won't be able to hide from this, unless you go to the moon.

I don't know about the connection with your judgments on the state of Britain (and you have no authority except your own to hold such a view) and the fact not many people go to Church in the UK. What effect would this have anyway? You reconvert the UK to Christianity. Then what? Are you going to fight or act like trappist monks? How will Christianity survive if you let yourself get run over by a bus? Aren't some matters worth fighting for?

16 June 2014 at 13:16  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...


we've dealt with Islamists in India and South East Asia. Nobody is fazed by them.

You my friend are looking through the 'scope from the fat end.

You are talking of nations I am talking about a no-borders ideology.

'We' have not dealt with Islam; if we had we would have not allowed to embed itself anywhere in the West.

16 June 2014 at 13:21  
Blogger Sidney Deane said...


Correct, an ideology.

So if you want to defeat islamists you have to defeat the ideology. Killing them will only ever be a temporary fix.

However, as I said, the ideology is God's word isnt it, so how can we possibly argue with it?

16 June 2014 at 13:33  
Blogger David Hussell said...

David Kavanagh @ 10.49

Absolutely ! Freedoms have to be firstly won, then vigorously defended.

16 June 2014 at 13:34  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


Iraq under Saddam was a far more lethal threat to Israel than the chaos in Syria and Iraq. The Islamists will turn on each other as they compete for power. There is a looming humanitarian catastrophe but it will be internal to the Islamic world.

A bunch of guys with guns are sufficient to murder people. But they do not a modern army make.


16 June 2014 at 13:40  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Sydney Deane

the ideology is God's word...

No wish down that particular route ... each to his own.

It's part of what we call 'British Values'

16 June 2014 at 13:43  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...


Granted, this is the situation today.

But by the same token....

In 1919 no-one thought Germany was going to be a threat to anyone. Indeed there was a thing called the 'ten year rule' (written by none other than Winston Churchill) which assumed that there would be no serious conflict for at least a decade & Britain's defence budget was slashed accordingly. Skip to 1933 and Germany was still on her knees thanks to hyper inflation and then the great depression. Within a couple of years of Hitler coming to power, with Germany being put on a total war footing, the global balance of power shifted dramatically. The same could be said for Japan, to whom the west (Britain, America, France) grossly and arrogantly under estimated in terms of fighting skill and industrial potential.

The comparison may seem ludicrous today, but given 10 or 20 years, the situation may be different.Who knows, perhaps the wild card is China. China needs oil and is quite pragmatic with these things. If China invested heavily into the Arab/Islamic world... who knows what will happen.

16 June 2014 at 13:49  
Blogger Martin Marprelate said...

Mr. Kavanagh,
I watched the slaughter of Iraquis on my TV screen back in 2004 and have done pretty much ever since. If I though that God was dead I might perhaps support slaughtering a few more by bombing or whatever you are proposing.

However, being of the firm opinion that God is very much alive, I believe that our problems are spiritual rather than geo-political or military.

Militant Islam has come about partly because of the foolishness and insensitivity of the Great Powers after WW1, but also because Moslems associate Christianity with the depravity of atheistic western society and, quite reasonably, despise it.

The way to overcome Islam, whether in Britain or elsewhere, is not with violence or legislation, but with the Gospel. However, sending a few bombs or missiles is a lot easier, I must admit.

16 June 2014 at 13:50  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Sidney Deane

I'm sure we can identify a good atheist ideology that has shown itself strong enough to compete with Islam. Our fat indolent syphilitic self-absorbed Western secularism has certainly proven inadequate to the task. Perhaps the Ukrainians could help us identify such an ideology. Sixteen million of them were crushed by it once. They fully understand its power.


16 June 2014 at 13:52  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Rambling Steve @ 11.09

Yes. The west led by left "thinking" has forgotten how we got to where we are with peace, freedom and a measure of democracy and self-expression/freedom of conscience; the last of which is now endangered, especially by the EU imposed false Marxist god of total equality, which foolishly lumps the destructive in with the constructive.

In this many of the "ordinary" folk are way ahead of the cultural/political elite, which is why the left-liberal establishment is utterly confounded by the loss of interest in their politics and the rise of the more earthy forms rooted in the Common Law and the Judaeo-Christian cultural heritage of the country. The problem is not the people but the false leadership provided by the vast majority in Westminster, parts of the judiciary and their tame media friends.

I believe that we may have to descend a long way down, maybe to the very brink of disaster, as has happened before in our history, before the murmurings of disquiet with the currently favoured, dominant political narratives are thrown overboard and a new course set towards cultural survival. There is as yet no sign of this from the leadership, but perhaps cracks are beginning to appear ? I certainly hope so, for the sake of the long term survival of western civilisation and Christianity.

16 June 2014 at 13:53  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ carl jacobs (13:40)—There is a looming humanitarian catastrophe but it will be internal to the Islamic world

Small comfort, given that the West is now part of the Islamic world.

16 June 2014 at 13:54  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


I disagree with Martin above when he says that Islam is the judgment on the West. It is the reaction that Islam will provoke that will be the judgment on the West. The malignant nationalist neo-Paganism that will emerge in the wake of Secularism's failure. In that day, Hitler will be celebrated as something of a prophet who appeared 100 years before his time.

Then the West will know judgment.


16 June 2014 at 14:04  
Blogger Sidney Deane said...


"No wish (sic) down that particular route ... each to his own."

So you don't want to take on the ideology. Then you won't win the war. Just the odd battle.

16 June 2014 at 14:09  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


Germany was a modern industrialized state with an educated population. There was a solid foundation for Hitler to build upon. The Islamic world is coterminous with the third world. It is ignorant and backwards and getting more so. A Saladin would be required to unite it. And then what would he fight with? The world isn't driven by swords and horses any more.

Japan emerged in the power vacuum in SE Asia created by German victories in Europe. Ship for ship and man for man, it had the best navy in the world in 1941. But it did not have the industrial capacity to fight a modern war. That was the principle reason for its defeat. The Islamic world has no industrial capacity ay all.


16 June 2014 at 14:18  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Carl Jacobs @ 13.40

In the short term the result may well be a backwards movement for those majority Muslim countries involved in these conflicts, but their overall aim will be to unite and attack everyone else I assume, starting with Israel.

I accept that a bunch of thugs with small arms would be no match for a modern army, and therefore Isis would be slaughtered by Israel if it came to that.

16 June 2014 at 14:28  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...


I was referring to within this esteemed blog; if not indeed the West. No keyboard warrior here is engaged in any meaningful 'battle' other than a battle of words.

16 June 2014 at 14:31  
Blogger Sidney Deane said...



I'm talking about defeating Islamism and saying if the West adopted your policy of avoiding taking on the idealogy then it may win the battle but not the war.

16 June 2014 at 14:40  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...


A fair point about Germany and Japan viz the Arab world. I agree there is no contest (hopefully) in a full blown 'traditional' battle at present and if there is no modernisation in the future (a set of assumptions there). I mean the Israelis used to use French planes and WWII tanks and prevailed against the combined might of the middle east -whose countries had bigger and better equipped militarily- what they lacked was morale, disciple, training and the strategic brains of the IDF.

But back to the middle east today; there is still the fact that fundamentalist islamic states have the capacity to fund terrorism or allow terrorists to hide there. The danger is the use of asymmetric warfare (this how you chaps won against Britain in 1776) e.g. a couple of cruise missiles against oil tankers can do a lot more damage to the west than a million tanks or the danger of being sucked into another long drawn out conflict (Afghanistan, Vietnam).

So to my mind it is better to use whatever local allies we have, get them to keep their house in order and avoid having to fight a dozen Afghanistans. A bit like the ME before the Arab spring. I know I won't be on any liberal Christmas list (not that I celebrate it anyway!) for saying this, but the ME isn't ready for democracy. When they do get the vote, the simply put into power madmen like Hamas and worse.

That'd be better than the senario I was thinking of earlier and perhaps the way things will go. Not ideal, but better than WWIII.

16 June 2014 at 14:56  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...


OK, I get you are a pacifist. No need to explain. I've had enough arguments with pacifists in my time. I'll leave the conversation here, as we just won't be helping each other. Good luck the preaching. What has the reception of the gospel been like at your local mosque?

16 June 2014 at 14:59  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

David Hussell

their overall aim will be to unite and attack everyone else I assume, starting with Israel.

From what we've been seeing at least the ayatollahs' revolution in 1979, uniting is a job that the Muslim states don't seem to
be very good at. The Saudis would presumably be delighted to see the Muslim word united but only if that could be achieved under Saudi leadership, and vice versa for Iran, and equally for any other power centre or sect or shade of opinion within Islam. Any one faction will always find disunity and fragmentation preferable to unity under anybody else's leadership than its own.

16 June 2014 at 15:02  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

When ISIS have done with the Shia, they will surely turn their murderous zealotry on the Christians, whom they hate because they fear.

The hate is not born of fear but out of disgust—the depth of which we non-Muslims cannot begin to comprehend—that Christians refuse to worship the one true God. Should the zealots experience a pang of conscience, they need only reflect that Allah himself sees non-Muslims as ‘the vilest of all creatures’ (Qur’an 98:1-6). As such, it’s more pest control than murder.

@ carl jacobs (14:04)—The malignant nationalist neo-Paganism that will emerge in the wake of Secularism’s failure

I’m not inclined to let Christianity, or at least its leaders, off the hook for destabilizing Western nations by encouraging Third World immigration with the excuse that the Church is anticipating ‘the unity of all peoples that will be found in Christ at the end of time’ (paragraph 10 of this C of E document). The coming malignant nationalism will be very much of the Church’s own making.

16 June 2014 at 15:26  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...


If I had my way - I would be the 'extremist' - I have always been overtly anti Islam and made no bones about it.

16 June 2014 at 15:44  
Blogger Sidney Deane said...


"the ideology is God's word...

No wish down that particular route ... each to his own."

Surprised to hear you say this then in that case.

16 June 2014 at 15:48  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Uncle Brian @ 15.03

I agree - my point was that their "aim" would be to unite against all the rest. But it will be permanently frustrated, one hopes, by by their undoubted tendency to fragment and squabble internally. Indeed what we are seeing now, sadly, is such a rather big falling out, and such is their traditional way. The minorities are the "collateral damage".

The whole ME neighbourhood is a rough one and we are best staying well away, other than to trade for what we may need, or to give humanitarian aid, but I'd make that contingent on the easing of the plight of the minorities.

16 June 2014 at 16:14  
Blogger David Hussell said...

I should have been clearer and said "I'd make such aid contingent on the easing of the plight of the minorities"

16 June 2014 at 16:16  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...


Surprised to hear you say this then in that case.

If someone feels a connection to a god-based belief concept that's for them to hold. I don't have need of one: what they choose to believe in is really only of academic interest to me; what goes on in their minds is their business and they're entitled to it, at least they are in a secular society.

How they manifest their beliefs in my life-time however, is another matter.

16 June 2014 at 16:31  
Blogger William Lewis said...


I don't think that your "people are entitled to believe what they want" view is going to cut the mustard during Sid's war on theistic ideology.

16 June 2014 at 17:07  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...


Am ah boverrrred?....nnnnope!

16 June 2014 at 17:18  
Blogger Sidney Deane said...


"what goes on in their minds is their business and they're entitled to it, at least they are in a secular society."

Yes indeed they are - in a secular society. Be careful though, most people who frequent this blog have a warped (incorrect) view of secularism due to its constant misrepresentation by the Christian lobby and therefore are overtly against living in a secular society. Just a heads up because you're bound to receieve "secularism is evil" comments from a few imbeciles in here.

I understand where you're coming from - free to believe what they want - and of course I agree with you. However as you state that's only ok in so much as it doesnt affect other people.

The manifestation of beliefs, such as Islamism, is as you say another matter. And when the manifestation of beliefs affects society in general, those beliefs should be challenged. I mean, how else are you going to deal with it?

If a section of society believes that a Giant Doughnut rules the world, then fine leave them to their lunacy. Once the Doughnuts engage in violence and anti-social behavious, it's time for rational people to open a dialogue with them as to why they believe in Giant Doughnutism and to point out that it is a ridiculous and unjustified belief system.

Again, how else do you propose to stop it?

Kill them? sure. But make sure you get every last one. And even then, the idealogy has not been defeated, it's still there ready for someone else to pick it up and become the next Doughnutter.

It is crucial that Islam, as a religion, as a belief system, is questioned and shown for the nonsense it undoubtedly is.

Finally, i know very well of course that youre not gonna talk these maniacs down. It's the next generation we should be aiming for.

16 June 2014 at 17:20  
Blogger Sidney Deane said...

William Lewis

Excuse me for taking issue with and questionning a theistic ideology that wants to kill me and everything I stand for.

16 June 2014 at 17:28  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...


Been there; Done it to death - Life's too short.

16 June 2014 at 17:30  
Blogger Manfarang said...

David K 13:49
"If China invested heavily into the Arab/Islamic world... who knows what will happen."
China already has a large share of Iraq's oil.It also imports oil and gas from Iran.
In the light of the tensions in Xinjiang it highly unlikely that China would side with Sunni extremists.

16 June 2014 at 17:42  
Blogger William Lewis said...

Sidney Deane

"Excuse me for taking issue with and questionning a theistic ideology that wants to kill me and everything I stand for."

You are excused. But before you go may I ask why do you think that His Giant Doughnutness (may he rise forever) wants to kill you? No no not at all. He just wants to to live a batter life.

16 June 2014 at 17:59  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Let’s try and take an upbeat view of what’s going on. There are far too many muslims in the world, and we are enjoying an internal cull in a muslim region. From what one knows of the Sunni – Shia rift, their hatred for each other is a degree up on the same for Christians. While they sort out their differences like this, we know the Christians should be comparatively safe if only for a while. Every corpse we see now is, in its own way, a precious act of love from the muslim to the non muslim. What he is saying to the kaffir is no less than this: “Look – you have hope. We may destroy ourselves before we get to you”. There you are, the Inspector knew he could put a relieved smile on your worried face in what we have been conditioned in the West to think as ‘desperate times’.

So hold back on the poison gas - at least for now…

Must be an exciting time for our Creator right now. His human creation performing in this way for His amusement. It’s not having a dull moment which will see the human race go on and on with God’s protection from asteroid and meteor impact assured. We do, of course, lack His providence when it comes to our individual protection from each other, but so be it, it is not ours to demand, or even pray for. Truly, we are not worthy of it in any way.

16 June 2014 at 18:12  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Sidney Deane @ 17:20

I would just point out that the term 'secular' was pioneered by Gelasius in the Fifth Century, when it meant 'pertaining to the affairs of this world, of this life'.

It came to mean 'worldly' as opposed to 'divine' because divine matters were focused on the life to come when all merely temporal ages would give way to the eternal.

Gelasius, of course, did not have a concept of the State as we understand it, because that was the invention of Machiavelli.

16 June 2014 at 18:34  
Blogger The Explorer said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

16 June 2014 at 18:34  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


So that wasn't funny. In fact it was pretty despicable given the circumstances. The theology you present has never been Christian. But that whole 'amused god' concept was overtly pagan. Haven't seen you go that far before.


16 June 2014 at 18:38  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

16 June 2014 at 18:52  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Sydney Deane

most people who frequent this blog have a warped (incorrect) view of secularism due to its constant misrepresentation

We haven't misrepresented anything. Your concept of secularism deliberately excludes the use of religious presupposition as the basis of law. It therefore amounts to a de facto establishment of irreligion. Which is why you like it.

But if I ask you for a moral authority behind that establishment, you will not be able to give me an answer beyond "I want." As in "I want my life isolated from religion" or "I want them to not kill me and everything I believe in." But who are you that your wants are significant enough to matter? You can't even so much as morally separate yourself from the very people you fear. For their wants are just as valid as yours.

A consequence of the naked dead universe you inhabit and its concomitant lack of any moral authority whatsoever.


16 June 2014 at 18:54  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Interesting Carl that you are able to comment on God’s nature with a degree of surety, and this man isn’t. But then this man wasn’t, merely reflecting on a history of mankind blighted by war. As mentioned before, what DID God get out of our creation. Now, is it to fall on our knees before Him every Sunday, or is that just scratching at the surface.

But you are a timid man in this area. It is uncomfortable for you. You could turn your face away from the screen, albeit with a bit of difficulty, or you could metaphorically slap this man’s face. You opted for the latter. You feel better in yourself for doing that. It’s safer than straying too far from the reassuring.

16 June 2014 at 18:59  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Complaining that the religious have misrepresented secularism is a bit like complaining that Tolkien misrepresented Hobbits.

16 June 2014 at 19:13  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Inspector, Carl was spot on with his comment.

16 June 2014 at 19:18  
Blogger Sidney Deane said...


Yet here you are.

Don't give up old boy.


As we know, you would have Christianity as the established religion in the UK. And with that of course comes a myriad of special privileges just for Christians. Which is why you like it.

Secularists (note I said secularists, not atheists. They are not in any sense the same thing. There are many many secularists who are Christians, many who are muslims etc) don't think this is fair. If you were a muslim, a hindu, a jedi, you wouldn't think it was fair either, would you?

We have a society where there are people of all different religions and people with none. The only fair system therefore is a secular one. One where the state is neutral in matters of religion so that no one religion is treated as superior to any other.

It is honestly as simple as that. I understand why the Christian lobby goes on about "militant secularism" and why you are mad at secularists. It's because they want to take away the special privileges that Christians have exclusively enjoyed since forever. You dress this up as an attack on "Christian tradition" or "English heritage". I do honestly understand that that might be what it feels like. But it isnt, its simply the removal of privileges Christians have had at the expense of people of other religions/belief.

16 June 2014 at 19:28  
Blogger Sidney Deane said...

William Lewis

haha, nice.

I just cant get behind a pastry that thinks it is holeier than thou...

16 June 2014 at 19:33  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Jack. We must remember that the God of the OT is also the God of the NT. One remembers you made that very clear at one stage. The Jews still worship the OT God and, as we have seen, the devout Jews cannot even bring themselves to type out our Creator’s generic description, choosing G_d instead. What does that tell us, and do bring into the subject that emasculated great big teddy bear in the sky that ‘progressive’ Anglicans inform us delights at the prospect of seeing two homosexuals joined together as one before an altar.

In other words, put it up, whatever you have !

16 June 2014 at 19:33  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Inspector, clearly you slept through religious instruction at school or had so much to say you failed to listen to your teachers.

First page of the "Penny Catechism":

Faith in God

1. Who made you?

God made me.

2. Why did God make you?

God made me to know him, love him and serve him in this world, and to be happy with him for ever in the next.

Here’s a copy for you.

16 June 2014 at 19:47  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Jack. It’s alright you know. We can discuss these issues as adults without having to resort to religious instruction for the under tens...

16 June 2014 at 19:57  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

A small but growing number of atheists/secularists are BEGINNING to get it about there being a significant difference between Christianity and Islam. Their beloved Renaissance, modernism, 'Enlightenment', democracy etc arose in Christianised societies, not pagan or Islamic. Christianity reforms itself, Islam does not.

I politely suggest that the secularists reconsider the dechristianisation agenda and Andrew Neather's 'rubbing the right's nose in diversity'. I have no doubt that Islam is bring used as a battering ram against cultural Chrisyianity- only today I saw a letter on Guardian comment about how because of the dire effects of Islamic free schools we should ban all faith schools. This 'a plague on both your houses' attitude conflating Christianity with Islam has been a tactic since Dawkins' 'Religion's misguided missiles' letter after 9/11.

The risk though is that dropping the hate rhetoric and rationally appraising the respective pedigrees and truth claims of Islam and Christianity might take some folks out of their comfort zones.

Alaister McGrath's book 'Why God won't go away: Answering the New Atheists' is a good read, not too long. It ends with a heart warming story of a young man who became a Christian after reading 'The God Delusion.'

He thought the polemic so unfair and extreme that he did some independent research which led him to conclude that real Christianity was much more interesting than the caricature.

At least read Oriana Fallaci and Ali Sina, atheists who recognised the uniquely malignant nature of Muhammadanism.

Only 5,000 people died over the 300 years of the Spanish Inquisition. Not saying that was OK, but 'Go Compare'. We may not be far from an irreversible tipping point. The secularist revolutionaries that have been working against Christianity the last half century may end up with an Islamicised UK for their grandchildren.

16 June 2014 at 19:59  
Blogger Sidney Deane said...


"The secularist revolutionaries that have been working against Christianity the last half century may end up with an Islamicised UK for their grandchildren."

No no no. Secularism positively PROHIBITS that from EVER happening!

On the other hand having a state religion as you propound will undoubtedly end up with an Islamicised UK, as the number of Christians in the UK continues its steady decline and the number of muslims continues its steady climb.

You'll wish you embraced secularism when that happens. When instead of Christian holidays being favoured we all have to adhere to Ramadan.

Without secularism Christianity will become more and more marginalised as Islam grows. But in a secular society, no matter how many followers each religion has, no one religion is given superiority over the other.

Just stop and think about it for a minute please would you?

16 June 2014 at 20:09  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Sidney Deane

I can take your point about a secular society.

But what would you understand by a secular view of the Universe? (Given that 'secular' has a wider range of meanings than the straitjacket definition some try to force it into).

16 June 2014 at 20:16  
Blogger The Explorer said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

16 June 2014 at 20:16  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

"It’s alright you know. We can discuss these issues as adults without having to resort to religious instruction for the under tens..."

A good place to start, given your lack of grasp of the basics. Let's face it, your understanding of Christianity is at the level of a young child.

Happy Jack as no wish to discuss Judaism's understanding of God or the Church of England. The thread is about the mass roadside murder of other Muslims by Jihadists and the fate awaiting Christians in the Middle East.

What, if anything, can and should the West do?

Your answer: gleefully watch them kill one another and reduce their numbers and, if need be, use chemical weapons against them. Defend that. And the claim that God just stands by laughing and is essentially disinterested! Drag your pagan beliefs into it, if you must, but please don't label them Christian.

16 June 2014 at 20:47  
Blogger David Hussell said...


I fear that you have, with your "performing in this way for his amusement", just tipped over from being irreverently funny into, blasphemy, certainly in Christian terms. That is not a slap on the face, but just how I see it.

16 June 2014 at 20:49  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Sidney Deane (20:09)—Without secularism Christianity will become more and more marginalised as Islam grows. But in a secular society, no matter how many followers each religion has, no one religion is given superiority over the other

A free society will only be secular for as long as its people wish it to be secular. If demographic change, for example, produced an anti-secular majority, secularism would be shown the door. The last we would hear of it would be its fading cry, ‘I positively PROHIBIT this from EVER happening!’

16 June 2014 at 20:52  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Jack. “A good place to start, given your lack of grasp of the basics. Let's face it, your understanding of Christianity is at the level of a young child.”

You condescending bastard...

You’re no priest and a chap doesn’t have to put up with self installed Roman Catholic automatons like you !

But yes, let them kill themselves. All this man sees is a group of muslims with guns disarmed by another group of muslims with guns and then shot. Bloody well rejoice at that, the Inspector certainly is.

It’s Glenfiddich tonight as it’s a special occasion.

Chars !

16 June 2014 at 21:10  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

David. This man has had a gutful of religious twaddle by faint hearts over the decades. The only way he can make sense of this world and the corrupt humanity that live in it is that we have been put here for sport. Is the idea behind that really blasphemous ? Remember this, God only sent the Christ to us a mere two thousand years ago to offer salvation for those who qualify. Can we presume that those who lived before were just binned ?

16 June 2014 at 21:21  
Blogger Sidney Deane said...


I don't think there's such a thing as a secular view of the universe.

Does 'I can take your point' mean you agree?

Jonny Rotton

Ha, well yes that's of course right, a feature of a democratic system.

But i think that's highly unlikely.

Well i notice nobody has come back on my points substantively. Hopefully i've been able to educate a few people in here.

16 June 2014 at 21:37  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Can we presume that those who lived before were just binned?

Steady now Inspector, you are in danger of being accused of using reason and the Inquisition will not be at all best pleased. Can't have any of that free-thinking liberal pinko blasphemy talk here, damn-your-eyes dontchano!

Chug-a-lug that man!

16 June 2014 at 21:37  
Blogger The Explorer said...


Can we presume that those who lived before were just binned?

No we can't.

Think about the Transfiguration: Christ conversing with Moses and Elijah.

16 June 2014 at 21:49  
Blogger The Explorer said...


Can we presume that those who lived before were just binned?

No we can't.

Think about the Transfiguration: Christ conversing with Moses and Elijah.

16 June 2014 at 21:49  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Sidney Deane @ 21:37

I sort of agree. I'm thinking of Paul's view of the authority of earthly rulers, the Western |Church's escape from Caesaropapism by a division of roles, Luther's two kingdoms etc.

Re the Universe.

"In the beginning, God created Heaven and Earth." That's a religious view.

"The Cosmos is all there is, or was, or ever will be." That's Carl Sagan's view.

With which of these two would a secular view be more likely to align?

16 June 2014 at 22:12  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Watch out Dreadnaught, consorting with the Inspector is not the fashionable thing to be doing in early summer 2014.

You see, he’s been thrown out of Orthodox Sunday School for questioning that which cannot be questioned, and is thus no better than a pagan.

Well there you have it. Now run along before you break out in spots...

16 June 2014 at 22:13  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Inspector, that link Jack posted, have you opened it? The sort of despair you're demonstrating is, at best, unhealthy. One doesn't have to be a Priest to point this out, just a fellow Christian with your interests at heart.

For God's sake man, do get a grip.

History remains indecipherable, incomprehensible to us mere mortals. No one can read it. However, it reveals the wickedness of man, when he abandons himself evil, and also the superior ordering of events on God's part.

16 June 2014 at 22:18  
Blogger Darter Noster said...

Sidney Deane,

You spoke earlier of the priveleges enjoyed by Christians in this country that other religions might find unfair. I was just wondering if you could name some of these....? Beyond the Royal associations of the Church of England, which like the Royals themselves (and the Church of England, should I be feeling controversial) serve no practical purpose whatsoever, there is not a role, job, position, or function from which someone who isn't CoE is barred from in this country (saving specifically religious ones, obviously).

If you mean that there is a cultural bias towards Christianity, and the CoE in particular, that should hardly be surprising given England's history and demography. It's like saying that French people have a cultural bias towards secular republicanism.

16 June 2014 at 22:21  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Jack, yes, that’s it. Be in denial. They say that’s a good thing, or maybe they say it isn’t. Not really sure. Still, whatever, it won’t bother a religious leader like you, will it ?

16 June 2014 at 22:23  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Inspector, Happy Jack advises the Book of Job for that question about God and denial. It can be found in your Bible, in the Old Testament. Or you could read the Book of Revelation in the New Testament.

Difficult day at the office?

16 June 2014 at 22:40  
Blogger Darter Noster said...


We can read history pretty well, and it tells us that atrocities like that in Iraq have been perpetrated throughout history by different people for different reasons; it would be foolish to bet against the house by speculating that humanity will advance to the point where mass killing is an impossibility.

As someone trying and failing to build an academic career, one cannot help but admire Fukuyama, whose End of History theory is demonstrably and obviously one of the most ridiculously inaccurate ever devised, but who continues as a respected and well-paid academic.

16 June 2014 at 22:53  
Blogger bluedog said...

Sidney Deane @ 20.09, mankind has always had the option of becoming secular but has never taken it. Why?

You say, 'On the other hand having a state religion as you propound will undoubtedly end up with an Islamicised UK, as the number of Christians in the UK continues its steady decline and the number of muslims continues its steady climb.'

You are comparing two completely different and unrelated trends. The rise in the number of Muslims is a function of the very high birth-rate in the Muslim demographic. After all, if older Muslim men continue to forcibly marry child-brides, these breeding women inevitably have up to 25 years of fertility ahead of them. On the other hand the Anglo birthrate is well below replacement, in common with the rest of western Europe.

As for the supposed decline in Christian belief, is not the case that it simply takes a different form, as His Grace's cyber cathedral attests?

16 June 2014 at 23:02  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

Happy Jack,

It looks like you have also sent me a copy of the penny catechism via your Dodo blog.Just trying to work this one out, bud, as I've no real need for it.

16 June 2014 at 23:15  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Sidney Deane

You missed a little bit because I am an American. So if you want to tell me that Secularism means:

1. No established state church.
2. No gov't role in how churches are operated (beyond neutral impacts of law)
3. No ex officio participation of church leaders in gov't.

Then I am right there with you.

But that is not what I perceive Secularism to be. What I desire is a religiously committed population setting the basis of law by which the gov't acts. Let me give you an explicit example. I want the definition of personhood to be defined according to religious understanding. I don't want some guy (usually a lawyer) saying that violates separation of church and state. I don't want neutrality in law to be defined as if God does not exist such that action in the public square comes to be defined purely by materialist notions. That is not neutrality in regard to religion. That establishes the metaphysic of materialism.

Now if I don't have the weight to carry the public square to establish my understandings in law, then too bad for me. But I don't want those understandings precluded a priori in the name of neutrality.


16 June 2014 at 23:18  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Darter Noster, as Happy Jack said:

"History remains indecipherable, incomprehensible to us mere mortals. No one can read it. However, it reveals the wickedness of man, when he abandons himself to evil, and also the superior ordering of events on God's part."

Jack recall Pope Benedict something along these lines. Jesus made clear God Kingdom is not of this earth. He also told us it would reach a climatic end. He also gave us His teachings about how to live and treat one another.

As Teresa of Avila (1515–1582)
"As someone trying and failing to build an academic career ...."

Jack was sorry to read this. Unfortunately, we don't always achieve what we want, as quickly as we'd like to and not always for fair and just reasons.

Who knows why God permits nonsensical theories to prove so lucrative and appealing, or permits injustice? The good news is that you are called to dedicate yourself to and persevere in the field God has called you to. He will reward you for this. Discern this correctly and human recognition or success is not what counts.

As Teresa of Avila put it in her wonderful poem-prayer:

Christ has no body but yours,
No hands, no feet on earth but yours,
Yours are the eyes with which he looks
Compassion on this world,
Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good,
Yours are the hands, with which he blesses all the world.
Yours are the hands, yours are the feet,
Yours are the eyes, you are his body.
Christ has no body now but yours,
No hands, no feet on earth but yours,
Yours are the eyes with which he looks
compassion on this world.
Christ has no body now on earth but yours.

16 June 2014 at 23:18  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Please forgive the error in the 'cut and paste'.

16 June 2014 at 23:21  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

Happy Jack

Ah, I thought as much. Interesting that you have 370 Mitzvot though, so getting close to our 613....

16 June 2014 at 23:34  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

David K, Happy Jack has no idea who forwarded you said text. Trust him on this, as he has it on very good authority, the 'bird' to whom you referred, played no part it in.

To your credit, unlike (ahem) some, at least you appear to have opened it and had a look. However, the statements in it are not exactly Christian Mitzvot. They are explanations about God, creation, salvation, man and how we come to know Him, love Him, serve Him and spend eternity with Him.

(Cousin Lou will explain, Jack is sure.)

16 June 2014 at 23:55  
Blogger Darter Noster said...

Thank you Happy Jack :o)

16 June 2014 at 23:55  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Jack “Difficult day at the office?”

You condescending bastard...

17 June 2014 at 00:02  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

Ah Happy Jack,

Looking back at the e-mail, it came from one of those 'follow up' things you get on the google comment box, from a thread I'd commented on your blog, so nothing to worry about. With the discus setting, you can copy and past the link, without having to do whatever it is you have to do on google to get it to work. Hmm, yes I shall quiz my cousin on this penny catechism when I next see her.

17 June 2014 at 00:07  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

DoDavid and Jack would be interested in her response too as she continues her quest. Wish her well.

Jack popped across to your blog as he was concerned someone was masquerading as him. Thank you for putting his and his friend's mind at rest.

17 June 2014 at 00:12  
Blogger Happy Jack said...


Do lighten up Inspector. Jack was just teasing you.

17 June 2014 at 00:15  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Carl, Jack has been reading your comments with interest this evening.

He agrees with you about secularisation but just adds the caveat that any society based on principles other than those mandated by God cannot and will not be sustainable. Still, you know this already.

So far as the Middle East goes, you've offered a shrewd analysis. All the West can do is provide material assistance whilst Islam fights itself. Military intervention is unlikely to achieve much unless its all out control and neither the public will nor the resources are available for this - yet. Israel has to be defended as a democracy and as a representative of our global interests in the Middle East.

Jack has often pondered the significant geo-political location of the small hilltops that is Jerusalem. It sits in a land at the crossroads of the continents. It also sits amidst the oil producing countries of the world on which Western capitalism depends and yet has no oil itself. Yet it is there that Islam, Judaism, Christianity and now liberal-capitalism, are at loggerheads.

17 June 2014 at 00:43  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

17 June 2014 at 02:12  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

17 June 2014 at 02:12  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Obama sends American troops into Iraq – but only to guard the embassy.

President Obama said on Monday that he had ordered up to 275 members of the United States armed forces into Iraq to guard the American Embassy in Baghdad, a day after the State Department announced a partial evacuation of the heavily fortified facility.

17 June 2014 at 02:39  
Blogger Maxine Schell said...

As regards Islam, Churchill was right.

17 June 2014 at 06:48  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Happy Jack @ 00.43

The geo-political significance of Israel ? I agree it is intriguing.

God is amongst many other things of course a wise geographer as well as a general. The physical territory of contemporary Israel is to put it very simply, a corridor for movement, an axis between the three continents that you mentioned earlier, Africa, Asia and Europe.
All land based transport has to move over it or at least near it. The hilltops - another simple point - represent physically and morally domination of the surrounding areas through which movement can occur.
Seeing the valley of Armageddon really does bring alive to the visitor the geo-strategic significance of that great vale of land through which all armies intent on conquering that area must pass.
And that's just the territorial and strategic military strategic aspects touched upon very briefly !

17 June 2014 at 08:03  
Blogger Len said...

The sort of despair that the Inspector is exhibiting is nothing new and was experienced by (dare I say it?) people like Martin Luther and many many others.
When one looks at the human condition one feels a sense of hopelessness.'Religion' has no answers in 2,000 yrs State religion has become unfit for God`s purpose.
Might seem a strange thing for a Christian to say but it is perfectly true' religion' in the sense as portrayed by institutionalized religion has become part of the problem and offers no answers although it pretends to do so.
'Job' had his' comforters' who offered all sort of 'advice' and blamed Job himself for his predicament which was only partly true.
Does God watch on as His Creation destroys itself in a detached bemused sort of way?.

No!.. quite the reverse.. God came to Earth became one with us and gave us the solution to the predicament that man had brought upon himself. God offered us redemption by giving His Life to us in exchange for our fallen corrupted life.
And that solution created a new beginning for man through receiving the Life of Jesus Christ in our redeemed spirits and the promise of a new World where this present Chaos will exist no more.

And this present Chaos?.
This is the death throes of a dying World as man tries to prevent the return of Christ and seat Satan on the throne of this world system.Satan will fail as he has failed in all previous kingdoms where Satan ruled through corrupt men.

17 June 2014 at 08:28  
Blogger William Lewis said...

Well said Len. One can but imagine what the world would be like were everyone to accept the life offered by Jesus Christ.

17 June 2014 at 08:40  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

OK, so after thinking this through overnight,as I see things -

1. The Sunni and Shia hate each others guts and are going through a bloody civil war across the middle east, worse possibly than anything Europe ever saw during the height of the Reformation wars.

2. One camp is being led by Iran, the other Saudi Arabia.

3. The Christians of the region are caught between these two fires and are suffering terribly as a result.

4.Both sides are united in loathing for Israel and wanting to wipe her off the map.

5. No-one knows what to do about any of this.

So what does the west do? Is doing what Obama/Kerry & some GOP Senators are now saying- Carl can correct here, but I believe Lindsay Graham has said this as well- that there is a need to cooperate with Iran over the situation in Iraq. Isn't the danger there that the country will either fall under Iranian control or that the country will be divided along ethnic lines... which would upset NATO partner Turkey (re Kurds)...

What a bloody shambolic mess. What to do?

17 June 2014 at 08:49  
Blogger Len said...

Until one understands what is happening in the spiritual world this World will be only seen as' a bloody mess'.
We have God`s solution to 'this bloody mess' which is a new man, a new world through Jesus Christ.
And we have fallen man energized by Satan doing everything he can to prevent the rule and reign of Christ (whether he realizes this or not)
And until we realize the true nature of the war we are engaged in we will be entirely helpless to provide any solution .

17 June 2014 at 09:09  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

17 June 2014 at 09:15  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

Happy Jack

Well it did get me thinking as to what a 'penny catechism of Judaism' would look like; the only thing we've got that is remotely like a creed is Shema Yisrael & the only thing closest to a doctrine is the 13 points of Moses Maimonides, who was during his life time considered a heretic by some (the irony!).

PS- Jews, even the zealots among us, would only claim that G-d gave us a tiny portion of the surface of the earth as our own. About 10% of the area of Great Britain in fact.

I wouldn't say Jews and Christians are at loggerheads, well, if we are it is only in an intellectual sense, not a violent physical sense. I'm only hostile to Christianity when it seeks to convert people from Judaism, which I think would be the same reaction if any of us Jews here tried to poach the Inspector from Catholicism.

King Solomon once prayed :

"Likewise when foreigners, who are not of your people Israel, come from a distant land because of your great name, and your mighty hand, and your outstretched arm, when they come and pray toward this house, may you hear from heaven your dwelling place, and do whatever the foreigners ask of you, in order that all the peoples of the earth may know your name and fear you, as do your people Israel, and that they may know that your name has been invoked on this house that I have built."

17 June 2014 at 09:16  
Blogger David Hussell said...

David Kavanagh @ 08.49

I agree that yes, it is a bloody shambles of a mess.

Like Len I think that that essentially, the forces at work here are spiritual. So we will not understand what is happening or what to do, until we begin to see that. Basically humanity on its own cannot cope, we are inadequate, and we cannot set up just systems of government , globally, regionally or nationally. Utopianism simply does not work, ever.

But I also think that a counsel of despair is not acceptable to any who try to follow God, as we are told to our best whilst we are here. Therefore in the meanwhile, awaiting the Kingdom of God, we have to do our inadequate best here and now, to achieve what security and justice we can. We must muddle through as best as we can.

But some overreach themselves, and pursue foolish motives, often disguised or self-justified as seemingly noble, like the unrealistic initiatives to impose democracy unwillingly on cultures alien to such systems, and then a total mess results, which is where we are now.

The way forward from here is not clear, but time is short and people are literally losing their heads. These barbarians must be stopped, but how, that's the question ?

17 June 2014 at 09:44  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

It is in the hope that this post of Cranmer's is read, circulated and re-read by those of this nation who can actually command the degree influence necessary to receive a far hearing at the top table.

Multicultural blindness has delivered us in to the street-fights of the global village whether we accept it or not. The warning of what is possible when technology, wealth an weaponry are available to like minded Jihadis, even if today they the are still in nappies, has to be addressed.

Enough of the legislation and public attitude that stifles criticism of incompatible elements amongst us. Pointing the finger directly at the adherents of Islam is not racial profiling but first degree self

No more Mosques. No more immigration from Muslim countries. No more foreign aid until the Muslims clean their shit off our doorstep.

It's time to fight back and mean it.

17 June 2014 at 09:51  
Blogger William Lewis said...


"I'm only hostile to Christianity when it seeks to convert people from Judaism, which I think would be the same reaction if any of us Jews here tried to poach the Inspector from Catholicism."

I don't think that's right. Most Christian's will "try to convert" non-Christians or at least try to explain the reasons for their hope because this is what they have been instructed to do by the Lord. Ultimately the person will make their own decision. Why would I be hostile if Jews, or any other religion, tried to persuade Christians to go their way when I am trying to do the same? It would be rather hypocritical don't you think?

17 June 2014 at 09:55  
Blogger bluedog said...

David K @ 08.49, with benefit of hindsight we can confidently say that the boundaries of Iraq and Syria as defined by Sykes-Picot and subsequent settlements are now non-viable.

Quite simply, these boundaries do not align with the national, tribal or sectarian facts on the ground. Unless the West wants to award itself mandates through the agency of the UN to once again become occupying powers, there seems little point in trying to enforce the status quo ante-ISIS. Note too that the name of Izzat Al-douri, Saddam's deputy who was never caught, is being mentioned in the context of ISIS. This would explain the astonishing speed with which ISIS has been able to take towns formerly loyal to Saddam and the high efficiency of the ISIS movement. If Al-douri is the guiding hand, despite the barbarity of ISIS, once they have achieved their goals, the state which emerges in eastern Syria and western Iraq may be Baathist in style and therefore a known quantity. The question would then be whether or not Saddam's former aides could prevail against younger and more radical elements of ISIS and for how long. We can be sure that some part of the House of Saud is acting as mid-wife to the birth of this new Sunni state.

The dilemma for the United States is exquisite on two fronts. In the Middle East, former enemy Iran is offering support to the US in its efforts to contain ISIS. In the Far East, former enemy Vietnam is offering support in US efforts to contain China.

Plus ca change etc.

17 June 2014 at 10:32  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...


In the Middle East, former enemy Iran is offering support to the US in its efforts to contain ISIS. In the Far East, former enemy Vietnam is offering support in US efforts to contain China.

And at the same time, U.S. ally Israel is launching a new attack on Iran's ally Hamas, following the kidnapping of three Israeli boys.

17 June 2014 at 11:38  
Blogger bluedog said...

Indeed, Uncle Brian @ 11.38. We can be sure that if the US and the UK get too close to Iran, they will simply install Iran as the nuclear armed hegemon of the Middle East. Never the intention of course, but you can see that being the result, due to sheer incompetence and a complete inability to think more than two moves ahead.

17 June 2014 at 11:49  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

David K, are you offering the Inspector "religious sanctuary"?


Jack agrees with David Hussell that we have to do what we believe to be right in this situation based on moral principles with the intention of advancing peace and justice.

17 June 2014 at 11:51  
Blogger Hannah said...

What a ghastly situation. And why is the US talking about Iran helping out? Isn't there a fable about a Scorpion and a Frog?

17 June 2014 at 12:28  
Blogger Hannah said...

Huh, I don't get shocked by Inspector's thoughts anymore. I think he says these things to get a 'reaction', really. Inspector could have simply quoted Kissinger*:

"It's a pity they can't both lose."

Not sure about him swimming from the Tiber. I think his home is RC'ism. More the Reform branch I guess, than the Orthodox wing?

* note I'm NOT endorsing Inspector's views above.

17 June 2014 at 12:39  
Blogger Jay Bee said...

Spot on Bluedog@11:49

It is a measure of how distorted the West’s policy towards Iraq has become that Iran has gone from pariah state in the Axis of Evil to a potential ally in the struggle against ISIS. Imagine the mental gymnastics of diplomats and politicians as they seek to rationalise this. They are drowning men clutching at straws. Their impotence laid bare. No wonder Iran appears to be holding out a diplomatic lifeline. It has been engaged in intensive diplomacy in Geneva ahead of the July deadline for a deal on its nuclear ambitions. The result of all this new found cosiness could be a “blind eye” deal that accelerates progress towards a nuclear armed Iran leading to regional hegemony over a swathe of Muslim territory from Persia to the Med. And thinking 3 moves ahead what about Israel?

17 June 2014 at 13:19  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


More the Reform branch I guess, than the Orthodox wing?

To understand the Inspector's religion, ypu must begin with Greek mythology, and compress it into a monotheistic form. Toss in Christ as a recreation of Achilles - because who can explain the Trinity. Add three parts White Man's Burden, two parts Victorian morality, a dash of longing for Empire, and season with sitting in the Club being served by lesser races. Then put the Holy Spirit back into the box like an extra ingredient that was never used. That is the religious face he presents.

I cannot state this strongly enough. There is nothing Catholic about him beyond organizational affiliation. And I am a Protestant. That amounts to a statement against interest.


17 June 2014 at 13:53  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...


I hear what you say and there is some logic in splitting up Syria and Iraq, as this is clearly a Yugoslavian situation . However, the only danger is that these weaker, smaller states will fall under the sway of either Turkey or Iran. I'm not sure if that is good or bad,but for some reason it doesn't warm my cockles, based upon raw gut feeling. Perhaps establishing a state for the ME Christian minorities might be in order as well?

17 June 2014 at 18:28  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

Happy Jack,

*Chuckle* indeed. I lost half of what I was trying to say there, but I can't remember what I was going to say.Hmm, to me Inspector is quite happy being a secular Catholic (Catholic by birth, but not observant)...

17 June 2014 at 18:31  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...


Yes, I do understand why Christians do their missionary work (Matthew 28 ,16 to 20?).I guess I see things differently as I have no urge to convert people, because it isn't necessary. In fact thinking about it, this is what I was trying to say in that quote to happy jack, above.

"Why would I be hostile if Jews, or any other religion, tried to persuade Christians to go their way when I am trying to do the same? It would be rather hypocritical don't you think?"

Yes I guess it would be.

17 June 2014 at 18:35  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

David Hussell,

Yes, we need to keep hope and faith.

17 June 2014 at 18:36  
Blogger Len said...

Hope and faith?.

Do not put your trust in princes,
in human beings, who cannot save.
When their spirit departs, they return to the ground;
on that very day their plans come to nothing.
Blessed are those whose help is the God of Jacob,
whose hope is in the Lord their God.(from psalm 146)

17 June 2014 at 18:57  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

David K, Jack doesn't believe there is any such thing as a "Secular Catholic". He exhibits little Catholicism, secular or spiritual, in many of his more outrageous posts.

Perhaps "baptised pagan" is a more accurate description.

17 June 2014 at 19:28  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

My dear Len,

My hope and faith is in the G-d of my forefathers, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. I have been praying & fasting since Saturday night for the situation in Israel and Iraq, going through the book of Psalms as I have been able. My fast ends tonight at sunset, but my prayers will continue.

Adonai adoneinu ma adir shimcha
bechol ha'arets
asher tena hod'cha
al hashamayim.

[From the first lines of Psalm 8]

17 June 2014 at 21:07  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

Happy Jack,

I neither endorse Inspector's views, let alone understand them re Catholicism. I guess I am thinking too Jewish, as there are secular Jews as well as religious Jews.

17 June 2014 at 21:11  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Hannah. Desperate times require ruthless actions. Rather surprised you don’t appreciate that. Your people in Israel do. And having had the 70th anniversary of D day, haven’t you learned anything from history ?

Personally, one considers coming up against a crowd of gun carrying muslim fanatics out to do Allah’s work to be nothing short of a final imminent pre death experience. Remember this, that is going to be the fate of any non muslim who finds they are unlucky enough to be in their path. So why the concern over the use of poison gas on them. It would incapacitate rather than kill, though a few will die from the effects, that’s for sure. Would that we could avoid that unfortunate happening.

Of course, you could lend us your Passover ‘Angel of Death’ if he’s not too busy, to make a cleaner job of it, if you prefer. Angels of death being so much nicer than gas…

17 June 2014 at 21:20  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Carl. One has a feeling you are disappointed in him. You so desperately want to throw the Inspector into his box marked “Roman Catholic he says but shouldn’t be” AND slam the lid down hard so you silence him that you are all a tiz as Mrs Proudie might say. Yours is an ordered mind that finds skirting around the perimeter not to your taste. Well, fortunately, yours truly revels in doing just that.

Any more thought on our relationship with our Creator from you ? Can we at least be in agreement that we were created and indeed, continue to exist, for His benefit, and not the other way round as progressive Protestants would seemingly have it. Now, the question is – why ? Can we also be in agreement that the vast volume of sin that pours from the world is of no harmful consequence to anyone but ourselves. But that sin, which must have been anticipated and expected - what use is it to God ? Furthermore, is it possible that God had originally conceived us as a throwaway commodity, but then decided to send us our Redeemer to give the better of us safe passage out of this world, having grown rather fond of some individuals efforts to survive despite ourselves, or more accurately, the others, like muslims for example.

One is waiting for your response Carl

Heh Heh !

17 June 2014 at 21:21  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Inspector, all those questions, and more besides, are answered in the Penny Catechism. Do give it a quick read. You can progress from there to the full Catechism.

For example, we don't exist for God's benefit! He created us for no other purpose than to know Him and spend eternity with Him. We add nothing to Him - He's complete and perfect. And God isn't like man. He doesn't 'think', let alone sequentially, or change His mind and purpose according to how we behave.

Skirt around the perimeter by all means but first establish where it is!

17 June 2014 at 21:46  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Jack. If you cannot bear the idea of philosophy just shove off. What you have posted would irritate anyone but the most accepting post pubescent schoolboy...

17 June 2014 at 21:55  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

"If you cannot bear the idea of philosophy just shove off."

ROFL .... and its 101 Christian theology, Sir.

17 June 2014 at 22:04  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

What is God?

God is the supreme Spirit, who alone exists of himself, and is infinite in all perfection.

17 June 2014 at 22:09  
Blogger bluedog said...

Jay Bee @ 13.19 asks, what about Israel? Plays for time!

In our agreed scenario a two state solution with an Iranian sponsored Hamas driving 'Palestine' would be a fatal error in the view of this communicant. The best hope for Israel is to incrementally dislodge the Palestinians from the West Bank and secure their eastern flank against the line of the Dead Sea. The Israelis know this and it is a key attribute of the Cranmer Declaration, if one recalls correctly.

David K @ 18.28 asks, 'Perhaps establishing a state for the ME Christian minorities might be in order as well?'

Lebanon before 1974 and the Kingdom of Jerusalem before 1291 spring to mind. Sadly it is hard to imagine where such a state would be located and how it could survive in a sea of Islamic hostility. Cyprus comes closest but the Turks have already compromised the island.

Hopefully communicant Ivan is right in his suggestion that Islam itself may collapse.

17 June 2014 at 22:13  
Blogger Hannah said...

Hi Inspector,

Your post is somewhat amusing, as me and David are often described as 'Right Winger Hawks" on other blogs, when it comes to defending Eretz Yisrael.

"Desperate times require ruthless actions"

Yes I get this, perhaps you should read this passionate post:

As U may be aware, Israel is uproar at present. When the news broke on Friday night that terrorists had kidnapped 3 young lads, the Rabbis immediately declared this Pikuach Nefesh & then later asked people to pray at the Kotel (the wailing wall).At midnight on Saturday 30,000 plus Jews did so, of all traditions & backgrounds, to pray to G-d and sing Psalms and songs, the last of which (in English) was :

"Our brothers are the whole family of Israel.
Those in distress and those in captivity,
Whether on the sea or dry land.
May G-d have mercy on them,
And bring them out from distress to relief,
From darkness to light,
From bondage to redemption,
Now, speedily and soon.
And let us say, Amen."

"Of course, you could lend us your Passover ‘Angel of Death’ if he’s not too busy, to make a cleaner job of it, if you prefer. Angels of death being so much nicer than gas…"

Israeli Minister Bennett has already said that IF a single hair on the head of these people are harmed then "the membership card for Hamas [will be] a ticket to hell".

17 June 2014 at 22:14  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


God created man to display His glory - His love, His mercy, His justice, His holiness, his wrath against sin. That is why it is said "This is the whole purpose of man - to glorify God and enjoy Him forever."


17 June 2014 at 23:20  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...


We don't really have any idea then Carl. The purpose was never given a press release...

17 June 2014 at 23:43  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Inspector, we have the full answer:

Why did God make you?

God made me to know him, love him and serve him in this world, and to be happy with him for ever in the next."

What's so difficult to understand about this? It is what Carl's concluding sentence said:

"This is the whole purpose of man - to glorify God and enjoy Him forever."

18 June 2014 at 00:06  
Blogger Maxine Schell said...


A "secular" Christian or Catholic...
A "non-practicing" or "secular" Jew...

What would be the point ?!

18 June 2014 at 01:44  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

"A "secular" Christian or Catholic...
A "non-practicing" or "secular" Jew...
What would be the point ?!"

Social stability perhaps? Ultimately, no point at all in terms of the purpose for which God created us. And one with rather unsettling consequences, Jack would add.

18 June 2014 at 02:25  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

God made man to enjoy life here
on earth. This has not been mentioned and is as important as enjoying God and serving Him.
Inherent in " enjoying life here on earth" means justice and equality for all, the redistribution of wealth and less disparity between the "haves" and "the have nots" This is the Catholic ethos , Catholicism being
the original and genuine Christian religion.

18 June 2014 at 03:12  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

"God made man to enjoy life here on earth."

True - but then someone went and ate an apple and persuaded her partner to do so too. Things all went a bit pear shaped thereafter!

Enjoy life, of course, and promote social justice too, but always have in mind our ultimate destiny. Loving God and serving others isn't always going to be the enjoyable route.

18 June 2014 at 12:04  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...


Culture for one thing. I do know Jews who aren't very observant of their faith but observe the Sabbath still. We're weird like that, being a nation and a religion at the same time.

18 June 2014 at 15:15  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

Sidney Deane 2 days ago (sorry been working)

No,no, no to you sir. Wishful thinking about your beloved Enlightenment Secularism I'm afraid and I have stopped and thought about it for rather more than a minute.

Our Christian forefathers understood why it was necessary to resist Islam. Our current secular rulers have let it in, and it is growing. Constitutionally secularist France is further down Allah's throat than Britain.

I do not believe that the secularists know what they are doing nor where it will lead, nor do they have the will to resist. We are going to learn the hard way that when you throw out good religion you don't get no religion you get bad religion.

The truth is that we owe far more of our prosperity, peace and liberty to Christian foundations than the secularisers can admit.

History teaches hard lessons, and sometimes mistakes become irreversible but by a miracle.

We are currently 2 or 3 generations into an experiment to see if we can enjoy a good post-Christian society. Unfortunately all observers are biased and the experiment is both uncontrolled and unstoppable.

As John Lennon sang 'Imagine all the people living for today.' Quite.


18 June 2014 at 23:37  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

PS I did not and do not propound a State Religion although can see why my words might be understood that way. As my dear old friend C S Lewis wrote, religious despotisms are the worst of tyrannies since the rulers believe they are mandated by God to oppress you and they will suppress ordinary feelings of mercy, taking them as weakness. A bad ruler who is a mere bandit or kleptocrat may stop when he has stolen enough but the religious tyrant won't. Hence Lewis was opposed to theocracies and so am I. I would not impose my theocracy upon others as I do not wish their theocracy imposed upon me.

However I am convinced that Jeeus of Nazareth truly is Lord and Saviour and believe experience shows that where a critical mass of leaders and key opinion formers in a society believe and act on Christian conviction, you get a much better society in every way. To put it simply, I believe that Western society has been going to the dogs in every way since most of us abandoned personal and cultural Christianity. Islamification is both symptom and consequence.

I hope that clarifies my views and sorry for any misunderstanding. I would hate you to disagree with a mistaken version of what I am trying to represent as an authentic Christian position.

As St Paul said to the atheist and pagan philosophers in Athens 'The times of ignorance God ovetlooked, but He now calls all men everywhere to repent.' Sometines He has to send us a reminder that this command still has force.

Regards. Not much from me for the next 10 days due to work and travel.


19 June 2014 at 06:12  
Blogger Sidney Deane said...

"However I am convinced that Jeeus of Nazareth truly is Lord and Saviour and believe experience shows that where a critical mass of leaders and key opinion formers in a society believe and act on Christian conviction, you get a much better society in every way"

The evidence (as usual) contradicts your belief.

Everywhere a society has become more secular has it become more peaceful and prosperous.

20 June 2014 at 13:03  
Blogger Len said...

'Everywhere a society has become more secular has it become more peaceful and prosperous.'.

LOL not written by a UK resident I presume?.

21 June 2014 at 08:38  

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