Thursday, June 19, 2014

Why does the Church preach a PC gospel of middle-class respectability?

The Church of England put out a press release yesterday, welcoming the report of the House of Commons Education Select Committee into Underachievement in Education by White Working Class Children. Speaking after the release of the report, the Church of England's Chief Education Officer, the Rev'd Jan Ainsworth said:
“This is a timely report into a pressing issue, and the Church of England stands ready to play its role in supporting the young people identified by the committee.

“We are particularly pleased that the committee has highlighted the complexity of issues associated with White Working Class underperformance. Excellent schools can clearly make the world of difference to disadvantaged young people, but the committee also recognises that we need a greater understanding of associated social factors.

“That is why we have commissioned our own project, working through Church schools serving some of the most disadvantaged communities in England, to put additional resources and energy into enabling those children to succeed. Church schools can and do make a real difference to the lives of children who have the furthest to travel in terms of educational achievement, but we recognise there is more that could be done.”
The Church of England is putting more money specifically into educating white, working-class children?

Head of Ofsted Sir Michael Wilshaw observes: "The underperformance of low-income white British pupils matters, particularly because they make up the majority - two-thirds - of such pupils. So the lowest-performing group of poor children is also the largest. If we don't crack the problem of low achievement by poor white British boys and girls, then we won't solve the problem overall."

A focus on poor white British boys?

While His Grace welcomes this development, he can think of one or two bishops who might find this sort of language a bit Ukippy, not to say BNP-ish or 'racist'.

Funny - isn't it - how the Church permits matters of social justice to be determined and developed by ethnic identity, but those policy issues of considerable concern to the working class - such as immigration, housing and employment - may not.

Why is it acceptable to sermonise about justice for white working class children, but not for white working class adults? Why can there be more money for educating white working class children, but not for housing white working class adults?

Is it because vicars and bishops are drawn mostly come from middle-class backgrounds. Is it because middle-class theology embraces educational inequality but frowns upon the aspirations of white working class adults?

A fundamental weakness of the Church of England - in common with many churches in Europe - is its tendency to demand that people do not merely acknowledge the Lordship of Christ but also abandon their former way of life in favour of that of a peculiar middle-class sub-culture. Notwithstanding some of the excellent work going on in some of the most impoverished parishes in the country, the public perception of the Church of England remains one of middle-class privilege and an elitism which has little relevance to the working class.

While this may be something of a misconception, it is undoubtedly exacerbated by bishops treating Kippers and BNP-supporters as irredeemably racist outcasts.

Even Jesus broke bread with prostitutes and tax collectors.


Blogger Len said...

The State Church is no longer fit for purpose and need to be disbanded.
The Church needs to be preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ in an uncompromising fashion.The church should be salt and light to a world that is fast descending into a moral financial and physical chaos.
This is exactly the problem of the State Church wherever it exists it has compromised the Word of God and has become politically Correct.
The Church has forgotten what its primary function is and in a desire to be 'relevant ' has chosen to become an extension of the State its values.

The Church has nothing of real value to a dying world and has merely become another charity(nothing wrong with charities but there are perfectly good secular charities doing exactly the same job.
For God`s sake Church start preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ!.

19 June 2014 at 09:08  
Blogger john in cheshire said...

I interpret this latest revelation as yet another propaganda exercise to convince us how wonderful are these ethnic invaders and how crap are the natural, white owners of our country. All intended to reinforce the lie that the invasion is good for us.

19 June 2014 at 09:09  
Blogger Busy Mum said...

I picked this one up on the daily School News bulletin yesterday and I'll give you the benefit of my comment:
"Schools are busy classifying their children according to the Equality Act characteristics and making sure that these easily identifiable children are making headway......meanwhile which of these boxes do poor white working class children slot in to?"

Schools have been so busy making sure that ethnic minority/badly behaved/lower ability/gender questioning children are getting the 'support' they need in the pursuit of 'equality of outcome', that poor white boys are totally disaffected.

19 June 2014 at 09:11  
Blogger Father David said...

Come on, Your Grace, own up - you say you can think of "one or two bishops" who might find Sir Michael's language a little right wing!
I can think of one, who do you think is the other one?
I think we should be told!

19 June 2014 at 09:11  
Blogger Busy Mum said...

John in Cheshire - exactly - the fact is that if white boys are allowed to reach their full Christian potential, the invaders will be shown up for the inferior beings they are. As I have pointed out to more than one teacher, the entire education system, devoid of any morality and any Christianity, is betraying the indigenous population by being tailored towards the lowest common denominator.....I know a school full of white working class children and guess what the four houses are called? Mandela, King, Teresa and Ghandi.....time to start extolling the virtues of these children's white British ancestors I think and give them back something to be proud of and a reason to live! These poor white boys are expected to indulge in Black History month, LGBTQxyz month, International Women's name it, they are learning to appreciate everybody except themselves. I want my boys to grow into true Englishmen, worthy of the name, but as I pointed out on another website, to rephrase with apologies "...he who is born an Englishman in 2014 has drawn last prize in the lottery of life."

19 June 2014 at 09:26  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear Busy Mum, at Dr Wortle's School here in Brachester we have four houses - Latimer, Ridley, Cranmer and Laud. Boys learn about Magna Carta, King Alfred, Thomas a Becket, the Reformation, Civil Wars and Glorious Revolution if 1688. Prayers start and end the day, and in addition to the usual mathematics, scripture, science and geography we have lashings of cricket and rugby. We do need to rethink the girl's syllabus based around needlework, household management and music in this day and age, but so far our curriculum has served us well. No dole queues in Barchester! Why, here at the Palace we employ dozens of youngsters and our chimneys have never been cleaner.

19 June 2014 at 09:37  
Blogger Busy Mum said...

Dear Mrs Proudie,
Please reserve several places for my children, though I would prefer that they were not asked to support Laud house. I would rather them earn an honest wage up a chimney than develop beer bellies in front of a flat screen, all courtesy of the Welfare State; a misnomer if there ever was one!

19 June 2014 at 09:43  
Blogger Busy Mum said...

Len, I agree and would also go so far as to suggest that the Established Church is actually being used as a Trojan Horse by the government to peddle the secular/atheist agenda. Sounds ridiculous I know, but how better to delude the people than by dressing the fiercest politically- correct, Europhile wolves in the sheepliest clothing,viz., that of a C of E bishop?

19 June 2014 at 09:55  
Blogger Ars Hendrik said...

Defending this decision of the CofE, here, might be well beyond my limited powers, but here goes.

I think you might be conflating two separate things, on the one hand the failures of white working class children, of which there are many, on the other hand the reluctance of the CofE to endorse or appear to endorse political parties that may be racist (I personally would not include UKIP in this category and, in the long run, neither will the CofE I suspect).

You don't have to agree with the CofE to see why they have drawn the distinction.

Why are white working class families falling into poverty? Not because of immigration, though this may not have helped, but rather because the traditional industrial base that this group relied upon has gone. The problem has been one of education, or the lack of it, not immigration.

Governments have consistently failed to provide effective education and training for this group, falling into the myth that access to university (the magic 50%) would enable social mobility. Instead, it is now realised that a degree can be a passport to very little except debt and that people in this category need skills not useless certificates. Immigrants have nothing to do with creating this situation, though are relied upon to fill the skills gap. It is the fault of bad planning by our politicians – not the fault of immigrants or the CofE.

If the CofE is shining a light, any light, on this successive and cynical failure of politicians, who publicly eulogise the working classes but secretly loath and fear then, then good for the CofE.

19 June 2014 at 09:57  
Blogger Busy Mum said...

I can't agree Ars; this is just a sop to delude the white working class into thinking that the C of E and the political elite care for them. It's just an attempt to calm them down before the final stab in the back.
And anyway, how patronising can the C of E get? Englishmen don't need or want 'help'; they are quite capable of getting on with life and doing it well if you just leave them alone with the gold standard of Christianity to guide them!

19 June 2014 at 10:03  
Blogger IanCad said...

Mrs Proudie

What a splendid institution Dr Whortle's School must be.

Sadly such a curriculum is only found in Homeschools today.

Rather than applying it to cricket and rugby, (Training for Sodomy) I do think the term "Lashings" should relate more to the maintenance of discipline.

19 June 2014 at 10:22  
Blogger English Pensioner said...

As a UKIP supporter, do I assume that I'll no longer be welcome at my parish church and my contribution to the collection won't be accepted?

19 June 2014 at 10:30  
Blogger Busy Mum said...

English Pensioner - I am sure they will accept your contribution, as the C of E values money more highly than principles. But if you are sufficiently principled to be supporting UKIP, maybe you shouldn't contribute any money in the first place.

19 June 2014 at 10:35  
Blogger Ars Hendrik said...

Busy Mum @ 10:03

As a fellow Christian I really would like to agree with your last sentiment, about 'the gold standard of Christianity to guide them'. Unfortunately, I don't think the white working classes are particularly interested in following the standard, even if it would lead them to the uplands.

In my experience the majority of those I grew up with (working class people, not phony-middle class types) are now completely irreligious. They have simply excluded religion, not consciously rejected it, as an atheist might do, but do not even think about it.

Yes, like you I believe that a truly Christian nation would be inestimably better than the pessimistic bear-pit we are heading for, but the people have to want it. A Christian social revolution, which is what would be required to engage two lost generations at least, is a tall order. How on earth would you go about it?

The CofE is at least trying to be a presence in the lives of people who have lost faith – the new Archbishop seems to be particularly anxious to go where the 'safe' church will not. Perhaps its efforts will re-engage them – let us pray so.

At my church and, I am sure at many others, half of the congregants are retired people and first/second generation immigrants. Without them, where would we be?

19 June 2014 at 10:57  
Blogger Guy Jones said...

@ Busy Mum

I think you are right. The establishment cares less for the people of this country than what these 'natives' might do to them.

As for this initiative it is a rare cure that creates its own disease.

19 June 2014 at 10:57  
Blogger David Hussell said...

I struggle to gain a full view on this matter due to the complexity of the alleged problem and the number of issues involved.

It's a long time since I studied the "Uses of Statistics for analysing data", but I find some of the figures in some of the tables puzzling, in that I question whether they fully support the view that the gap between WWC and other groups is that large ? For example the % Absence of Session gives 8.4% for WWC and 5.8, averaged across the Asian nationalities. A difference of 2.6 % is maybe significant, and indeed even the lower figure of the two is obviously unacceptable, but the racial statistical difference does not seem as large as the general thrust of this report would imply? I would be happy for experts in the statistics of differential racial educational attainment to explain otherwise to me, but it is from the data that we must proceed to get to grips with this report, as it is statistically based. I am not suggesting complacency either but questioning the dramatic way these differences are presented to us and whether the statistics support such an interpretation.

I agree with Len that the C of E should preach the gospel which many churches do not do; however the Church, in the widest sense, has had a role in education for 2000 years now, so I cannot support any suggestion that Churches generally, not just the C of E, should leave it entirely to others. However Churches should not see "doing good" in society as a substitute for preaching the true gospel, as it isn't. We are Christians through faith, not good works, although the first encourages the second.

If as Busy Mum tells us, white working class boys are taught a syllabus more designed to make recent immigrants feel welcome and "included", at their expense, then if they are being severed from their heritage, culture and history, is it any surprise if the school fails to encourage them to also feel part of society, and to strive to do well in it by becoming educated ? I have no direct experience of this, not being involved in education, but clearly the children of the natives of these islands need to hear their island story otherwise we are failing them.
Two other factors jump out at me. I suspect that the ultimately Marxist, anti-Christian agenda of the political and cultural elite of the last half century to undermine the family and much more, has through popular culture, had more success with the WWC than with the immigrant communities, due to a whole plethora of reasons. Secondly, the elephant in the room, is the restructuring of the economy away from jobs that provided working class white boys, but also girls, with steady, meaningful employment. That last factor is a huge one I suggest.

This report touches upon many complicated areas of society.

I do suggest, that if it were not for the wholesome patriotic safety valve of Ukip far less wholesome political forces would be having their destructive way by now. But it may well take the culturally insulated and all too remote self styled "pillars" of our establishment at least another generation to gain sufficient perspective to grasp that point. Alternatively this report and what follows from it may do some good, reaching out to the excluded.

19 June 2014 at 11:02  
Blogger Busy Mum said...

Ars said "I don't think the white working classes are particularly interested in following the standard"
I agree that they are not interested but that is simply because the C of E has failed to show them the standard so they don't even know what it is!

Am going to have to log off as I must get on with the home-ed....!
Will try and catch up with this thread later.

19 June 2014 at 11:07  
Blogger Busy Mum said...

David Hussell - just seen your comment and it is true that white children have very little awareness of their own history. Never any mention of the 1700's, never any mention of Nelson, Clive etc, British Empire is only taught in terms of the slave trade...the Black Hole of Calcutta has become a massive Black Hole of knowledge.
Must go!

19 June 2014 at 11:12  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

@ David Hussell
"Secondly, the elephant in the room, is the restructuring of the economy away from jobs that provided working class white boys, but also girls, with steady, meaningful employment. That last factor is a huge one I suggest."

Yes, low expectations by working class boys are fully justified since successive governments (starting with Thatcher) destroyed our manufacturing industry.

Where have all the apprenticeships gone?

All that practically oriented kids have to look forward to nowadays is staying on till 18 studying a curriculum composed of cotton wool, followed by employment at McDonald's.

Do the Germans have this problem?

19 June 2014 at 11:16  
Blogger Jay Bee said...

The reason why white children have little awareness of their own history is that schools are required to toe the cultural diversity line.

"Celebrating Diversity" is Orwellian newspeak for indigenous Britons to celebrate their own cultural displacement and embrace the international Socialist vision of raceless society.

And the model for this “civilisation” is:-

"The extinction of race consciousness as between Muslims is one of the outstanding achievements of Islam, and in the contemporary world there is, as it happens, a crying need for the propagation of this Islamic virtue." - Arnold Toynbee (of the LSE and Polly's granddad)

19 June 2014 at 11:46  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

A good middle class education in the virtues of diversity and multiculturalism will solve so many problems.

If working lads are better educated they will become more tolerant, inclusive and diverse. All the old prejudices will disappear and 'extreme' views and the parties representing them will vanish.

They'll still be unemployed and university debt will be an issue, but at least they'll have an appreciation of the 'finer things in life' and when they sign on they'll be polite and courteous.

19 June 2014 at 11:50  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear Busy Mum, yes indeed, 'Laud House' is a bit of worry, but think o it as Dr Wortle's version of Slytherin...

19 June 2014 at 11:59  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

"Jesus broke bread with prostitutes and tax collectors."

This is true but what standard of education did He attain? After all, He was just a simple village carpenter. And, let's be honest, he did show some rather negative and judgemental attitudes towards His better educated Jewish brethren and exhibited distinct negative stereotypes towards them.

Think what He might have achieved with a university degree in theology!

19 June 2014 at 12:00  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Old Ernsty finds the report utterly laughable and hypocritical.

Lets take Croydon as an area.


They are ALL in affluent middle class areas that people buy homes at great cost, largely so that their children can join the local faith school and get a great start in life...and all in the area KNOW IT!

Yet the same faith schools conspired against the Grammar schools that brought children out of poverty into choices for life, like old Ernst that elevated him from limited life choices who had a poorly educated immigrant father and working class mother living in working class Darlington to a manager in industry...They are many here of my age from the late fifties and sixties that could claim likewise yet we cut off the talented poor to have zilch as opportunities in society solely for a political ideology that has made their lot far worse than it need be?

The socialist ideal is that all children must conform to sameness yet life ain't like that once we leave school, is it.

Life is all about competition in every area (supposedly evolution is founded on this universal principle of survival) yet we suppress them into being completely unprepared for the real world and wonder why they fail.


E S Blofeld

19 June 2014 at 12:02  
Blogger Busy Mum said...

Happy Jack said...
"A good middle class education in the virtues of diversity and multiculturalism will solve so many problems.

If working lads are better educated they will become more tolerant, inclusive and diverse. All the old prejudices will disappear and 'extreme' views and the parties representing them will vanish."

Tongue in cheek I am sure but so true! This is why the grammar schools have just changed their admissions policies to prioritise working class children/those on free school meals. As with the C of E, the government cannot get rid of the grammar schools so has used them as a Trojan Horse to be at the forefront of indoctrinating children with the secular agenda. It has done a pretty good job on the middle-upper classes so now it's time to get to work on those conservative, intolerant, bigoted white yobs.

19 June 2014 at 13:54  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Busy Mum @ 11.12

Thank you for that information. Being a home schooler you know about the present curricula on offer. It helps to explain some of the estrangement that must be felt by those children.

19 June 2014 at 14:13  
Blogger David Hussell said...

seanrobsville @ 11. 16

Yes I agree. The lack of industrial apprenticeships has created a vast gap between the enlarged range of well paid jobs, for which a middle class education is needed, and the low paid "race to the bottom" jobs, which understandably many WWC are reluctant to take. The lack of reasonably well paid jobs for the practical person also explains, to a large extent, the sharp reduction in marriage for many. This in turn multiplies the problems due to the reduction is numbers of stable homes, and so surprise surprise, the problems compound, which brings us back to the problems the report purports to address.

All three establishment political parties believe that the "answer" is unending import of willing EU foreigners from poorly paid countries, which is not sustainable in the long term for a host of reasons, and demeaning welfare for the unemployed natives - such a callous and unChristian attitude in my opinion.

This was one of the main reasons for my switch from supporting so called "Conservative" politics to Ukip. These are heartless policies in my opinion, revolving around just using and then disposing of, whole groups of people. There is always a reaction and a reckoning.

19 June 2014 at 14:29  
Blogger Shadrach said...

Len said @ 9.08
The Church needs to be preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ in an uncompromising fashion.The church should be salt and light to a world that is fast descending into a moral financial and physical chaos.

Interestingly, 'Christian Concern' have just launched an initiative to work with local churches to achieve just that.

19 June 2014 at 14:39  
Blogger David Hussell said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

19 June 2014 at 15:29  
Blogger David Hussell said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

19 June 2014 at 15:29  
Blogger Thomas Moon said...

I suppose we should be glad that the C of E is (apparently) showing some concern for native Britons; all too often one gets the impression that it has no interest in the English.

By the way, a few years ago, I was chatting to a primary school teacher and she told me that the only historical topics that have to be taught in primary school are the slave trade and the Holocaust. Could someone confirm this is right?

19 June 2014 at 15:58  
Blogger Len said...

Shadrach,(19 June 2014 14:39)

Such is the power of His Graces quick too!.

19 June 2014 at 16:23  
Blogger Preacher said...

In many/most cases, the Church has lost its purpose & its way, the power & moral directives that were once societies guidelines have been lost in a fog of PC clerics with no Christian agenda & apparently no idea of the gospel.
For young working class boys & men, the teaching & social concerns of these structures are antiquated examples of tradition & custom led by men in funny robes. David Cameron says he is a Christian, but forces through the SSM bill. The AOC drones on about moving into the 21st century & all that entails. But where is the gospel?.
From personal experience I can say that the Message & purpose of the gospel & the mission & relevance of Christ's death & resurrection to each individual is acceptable Only when it is plainly given in a way that is relevant & can be understood by all.
Surely this is the reason that men died, so that we could all own the word of God in plain English & be guided by the wisdom enshrined in it.

19 June 2014 at 16:31  
Blogger Ars Hendrik said...

Thomas Moon @ 15:58

Primary school subjects in history tend to include Egypt, Rome and Greece for ancient history. Tudors and Victorians for more recent history. WWII concentrating on the home front (rationing and evacuation), but not including the Holocaust unless it is raised by a pupil.

Other subjects may be taught according to topic, e.g. WWI this year, the Great Fire of London.

The idea that the Holocaust and slave trade are centrally mandated is simply untrue.

19 June 2014 at 17:37  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Thomas Moon + Ars Hendrik

History topics taught in schools.

Thank you for the question and the answer.

No doubt individual school areas and Exam. Boards differ and any other hard information would be useful.

19 June 2014 at 18:04  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Thomas Moon + Ars Hendrik

History topics taught in schools.

Thank you for the question and the answer.

No doubt individual school areas and Exam. Boards differ and any other hard information would be useful.

19 June 2014 at 18:04  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

As for the working class, the worst of them are somewhat ghastly types, but nothing that can’t be solved with a good dose of discipline starting in schools. They only become badly dressed tattooed drink swilling obese drug takers who beat their wives because they’ve never been told they can’t be that. To save the forthcoming generations of these blighters, we need to move society firmly to the right. We cannot do that with the Con-Lab-Libdem cosy setup in place. The working class knew their place once, and will do so again. Those who aren’t happy with that can aspire, improve, and move themselves up out of it.

It comes at a price though. The working class will need to ignore the socialists and stop imagining they are the equal of types like the Inspector. They are manifestly NOT !

If they wish to become equal, they’ll just have to work on it. Improve themselves through hard work and education. We can help them by re-establishing proper discipline in schools. Without it, it’s a bit of a waste of time educating them.

19 June 2014 at 18:08  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

"We can help them by re-establishing proper discipline in schools. Without it, it’s a bit of a waste of time educating them"

Well said.

The crux of the issue.


19 June 2014 at 18:11  
Blogger Busy Mum said...

Ars and Thomas Moon - Ars correct re primary school history, exactly what my children have all done. BUT at secondary level, there is a lot of Holocaust (with an increasing emphasis on it not being only the Jews, the pink triangle is becoming more prominent) and slave trade (bad Brits) and WW2 is mainly focused on Dresden (i.e. even more bad Brits) in much the same way as the Civil war focuses almost exclusively on Drogheda.
Victorians is only ever social history - oh how shocking, aren't you glad you weren't a child in Victorian times - that sort of thing. And as I said, no 1700's at all. And no church history.
Oxford and Cambridge exam board have just published a new A level syllabus - the only British history options are 'Picts and Scots' and 'Alfred the Great'; in other words, no 'British' history at all. The other options are various China,India, Africa and the Middle East modules as students 'need to know how great these countries were pre-colonisation'.

19 June 2014 at 18:53  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Discipline, the importance of

British white working class – bloody awful people...

But threaten them with fifty lashes and give them a tot of rum every night, and you have before you, the finest of men in the world.

You could entrust your life to them, and build an empire off them.

We did both !


19 June 2014 at 18:55  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

19 June 2014 at 18:55  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

But threaten them with fifty lashes and give them a tot of rum every night, and you have before you, the finest of men in the world.

Why was that?

Because you didn't treat them like girls and so gave them self respect as men

The Church will also fail if it doesn't give these boys back their masculinity.


19 June 2014 at 21:09  
Blogger Len said...

'But threaten them with fifty lashes and give them a tot of rum every night, and you have before you, the finest of men in the world.'

That`s what Capt`n Blight said and did(not sure about the rum bit?) shortly before the crew threw him overboard.

What we need is a good role model for people to follow....

Any suggestions...anyone...God gave us His Son Jesus Christ as a role model and look at how this World treated Him...

19 June 2014 at 21:23  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...


So... you think that Jesus would not love you enough to give you the 50 lashes that might save you for eternity?


19 June 2014 at 21:35  
Blogger Len said...

Phil... Jesus gave me His Life to save me for eternity.

19 June 2014 at 22:20  
Blogger Busy Mum said...

Len and Phil - maybe not 50 literal lashes but 'whom He loves, He also chastises', 'as a Father chasteneth His children' etc etc and 'through much tribulation ye must enter the kingdom of heaven' so we must expect a few ups and downs in this life!

Absolutely agree re boys being treated like girls and therefore not turning into real men.

19 June 2014 at 22:27  
Blogger Len said...

I tell you if anyone lashed me I would lash him back ...
So lashing will either make boys into wimps or rebels...
Is that the sort of society you want to create?.

19 June 2014 at 22:37  
Blogger bluedog said...

Phil @ 21.09 says, 'The Church will also fail if it doesn't give these boys back their masculinity.'

Very astute, and our society has become increasingly feminised and risk averse. To some extent the problem is one of advancing technology and the service economy. Every labour saving device and power operated tool is another man's job gone, although productivity tends to increase. In the office environment, the male physique is completely redundant, the intellect is what counts. Thus WWC boys are squeezed into an ever narrowing band of the economy. In fact the armed forces are still a major opportunity, but then Cameron has decided to disarm.

19 June 2014 at 22:37  
Blogger Len said...

I am of an age when I was caned at school and sort of lashed (beaten with a leather strap) and it produced in me a hatred for the people who abused me in this way..

19 June 2014 at 22:39  
Blogger Len said...

Quite frankly I think there is so much rubbish being spoken here as regard 'lashing' (which sounds like something out of a Dickens novel.)

What the youth of today lacks is 'discipline' because discipline is not a very fashionable word today.
National service was a very good way to teach unruly youths to have a respect for authority and to conform to some sort of routine in their lives..and respect for authority..

To try and reinstate any sort of respect for authority and the rule of law you would have to try to rebuild what decades of 'liberalism' have done to destroy order and discipline in the lives of our youth.I doubt it is possible in today`s environment because there are many factors involved.. the breakup of the family unit is just one of the factors. This is a complex problem and 'lashing'(if it were permissible today) would only contribute to the problem.

19 June 2014 at 23:02  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Len, Happy Jack agrees with the sentiments you've expressed. However, he believes there remains a role for the imposition of authority on youth where reason and other more constructive forms of discipline fail.

The Armed Service was no Holiday Camp and any ill-discipline or disrespect was robustly addressed. Jack has seen the films.

Are you entirely sure your anger from school isn't rooted in resentment that you were too harshly treated? Physical pain is transient; obedience and submission to rightful authority more difficult. Maybe the rebellious tendency was there already?

Jack agrees men are being feminised. 'Metro-sexualism' is all the fashion as gender qualities and physical differences are blurred.

When Jack was a lad and lost a fight at school or was being bullied, his dad advised standing his ground and asserting himself. When all else failed and violence was the only way to defend oneself, he taught Jack to box and showed him a few tricks.

Today? One has to run off to a school teacher and tell her all your woes, however minor, where upon you are metaphorically cuddled and registered as a victim of bullying. The teacher, most often a women these days, will 'nanny' you -just like the state will in later life. And if your the 'bully', well its educational psychology and special classrooms.

In all this molly coddling the genuinely sensitive child in need of shelter is overlooked. And the angry and disturbed child, in need of specialist intervention, is too.

19 June 2014 at 23:40  
Blogger Darter Noster said...

First off, let me declare my "interests"...

I was public school educated and went to Oxford and Durham Universities. One of my grandfathers was a professional soldier (before and during WWII), and then a railway worker. My other grandfather was a conscript soldier during WWII then a Mines Rescue worker, and a good friend of Joe Gormley and opponent of Arthur Scargill during the 70s. I was able to go to public school because my parents benefited from the grammar school system during the 1960s, went to university, and subsequently gained reasonably lucrative careers. I am currently working as a bus driver in Sunderland and am a member of Unite. I tell this story to point out that I have a reasonable experience of both middle/upper class life, and working class life.

The patronising and dismissal of the so-called working class evinced both on this blog and in government policy in general, Labour, Tory and Coalition, is beyond belief.

For starters, in Marxist terms the working class or proletariat is defined not by what they earn but by the relationship between ownership and production. It is therefore perfectly possible to earn quite a lot, but still be working class if the only thing you have to sell is your labour. In Marxist terms, which are those which have defined the class debate, what matters most is the fact that you have to sell your labour, not how much you get paid for it. If you own capital, however small, you derive benefit from it without doing anything. If you sell your labour, then no matter how well you might get paid you are at the service of the owners, the capitalists. Lots and lots of people who think they are middle class are, in Marxist terms, working class, because they do not own their labour and Marxism is about ownership.

Beyond that, the contempt for the ordinary people, the so-called working class, evidenced by politicians of all parties is terrible. They are dismissed as bigots or proles by politicians who have no idea what struggling along on low pay is like. They are told that any demand for wage increases will make the economy uncompetitive, whilst the people in charge make ever growing profits. They are told that health and education services are unaffordable, whilst tax avoidance runs rampant. They are told that they must be "competitive" with people from economies with much lower costs of living.

Most importantly of all, they are not stupid, and not prepared to be treated with contempt. They are not prepared to be patronised and talked down to, and to be made the victims of an economic system which treats them as numbers to be made to work for the benefit of others.

20 June 2014 at 00:19  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Darter, you need to brush up a bit on orthodox Catholic social teaching - for employers, employees and the state - as that sounded rather like liberation theology and socialist.

Men will always work and private capital and investment is necessary to create work and wealth. It's based on the need to generate profit. It has lifted us out of poverty. Think of the material situation of those grandfathers you referred to. The state could only fund education because the economy permitted it.

Relationships between 'workers' and 'capitalists' should not be based on class conflict but on cooperation and interdependence. Talk of 'victims' and 'exploiters' is the talk of socialists.

20 June 2014 at 00:43  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

The erosion of working-class incomes and living standards in the advanced industrial economies is a process that began several decades ago and is not confined to the UK alone. Cheap labour in countries like China, India and here in Brazil has a lot to do with it. Our current president, Dilma Rousseff, who will be running for a second term in October, is constantly reminding voters that, under the Workers' Party, a "new middle class" has emerged, meaning that many millions of families have been lifted above the poverty line for the first time. It's true, they have, but at whose expense? Partly, at least, at the expense of those workers in the U.S. and Western Europe whose earning power and prospects are no longer what they were was in their parents' generation.

20 June 2014 at 00:58  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

... are no longer what they were in their parents' generation.

20 June 2014 at 00:59  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Brian, that's how global capitalism and free trade works.

Unfortunately, the states who should exercise some restraint on naked capitalism in the developing countries, just don't do it effectively. This is for a whole range of reasons. Its one of the reason why our economy has to adapt and adjust.

20 June 2014 at 01:09  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

Wow ...Jack, your shift to Anglicanism has made you unrecognisable. Maybe a sojourn in the third world where people are earning $ 1 a day and dying of disease might instil some Catholic values back into you if you ever really had any in the first place. Of course exploitation exists and it is morally wrong. Shame on you. I never thought I would see you stoop so low.I agree with DN on this issue. It is you who needs to brush up on being an Orthodox Catholic.

20 June 2014 at 03:38  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

News at 11:00. Water runs down hill.

A man's value in the marketplace is determined by the marginal cost of replacing him. As technology opened up new labor markets, it drove down the cost of labor by making replacement both easy and cheap. Businesses had to adjust or go bankrupt. Why? Because people may bleat about exploited workers on a weblog but they spend according to their own interest. They aren't going to pay a 50% premium on a shirt just because it was locally made.

This is also why some people do exceedingly well in the marketplace. They are extremely expensive to replace and therefore they command good salaries. There are not all that many many people in the world who can be successful CEOs. The decisions they make have enormous implications. That's why they get paid so much.

The complaining about reality may now resume. But I won't take it seriously until spending patterns follow rhetoric.


20 June 2014 at 05:42  
Blogger IanCad said...

Darter Noster

"The patronising and dismissal of the so-called working class evinced both on this blog and in government policy in general, Labour, Tory and Coalition, is beyond belief."

Yes! Yes! Yes!

But, then again, there is nothing new under the sun.

20 June 2014 at 08:16  
Blogger Busy Mum said...

I am not in the habit of agreeing with Labour politicians but wasn't it Ramsay MacDonald who said that democracy is unsustainable without Christianity? Likewise, capitalism will only work for everyone's good when restrained by Christianity; if owners allow their materialism to overreach their Christianity - in other words, they give themselves, rather than God, the glory - the result will be the exploitation of their fellow human beings.

20 June 2014 at 08:32  
Blogger Len said...

Ones 'value in the marketplace' as regards the amount of financial reward one can demand seems to be irrelevant here in the UK..
In fact some of the highest paid are the most incompetent of all .I mention one word ...bankers..and some of the leaders of our UK Companies who are paid massive bonus`s regardless of performance andeven if their company is going' down the pan' (to use a phrase)
As they say' its not what you know but who you know 'and which 'old boys network' you are connected to...
I was only paid as to the amount of money I earned for my company (those were the days!)

20 June 2014 at 08:34  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Uncle Brian @ 00.58

You have neatly pointed to the dilemma. The successes of the developing countries, like Brazil where you are, allowing their workers' incomes to climb, has forced downwards the living standards of the working classes in the developed ones. We manufacture less and they manufacture more, as a global market adjusts itself to better communications and ever reducing transport costs.

But on top of those changes, over which we had little to no control, as customers the world over make their own buying choices, politicians have deliberately made matters even worse, by declaring the 28 countries of the EU to be borderless, not just for goods but for labour as well. The effective abolition of the nations is a self imposed misery heaped on top of the working class especially. The EU is a capitalists' dream delivered to them by unthinking socialists.

Capitalism has delivered millions out of poverty and I see it as a useful tool for mankind, but it has to be regulated to an extent. Nation states were a way of doing that, in respect of establishing limits to labour movements, allowing some but not all movements. It amazes me that the so called socially concerned Churches, can not see the harm that the EU is doing to ordinary people here- how can they support this? The answer appears to be that the Church leadership is economically illiterate I suggest - they know not what they do !

20 June 2014 at 08:34  
Blogger Len said...

"Great nations rise and fall in a 200 year cycle. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage."

(I guess it is not to difficult to place our position... once spiritual truth declines it is a long slide back into bondage)

20 June 2014 at 08:42  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Len @ 08.42

"Great nations...." oscillating through that cycle ?

I think that there is great merit in that idea. Maybe it applies to families too. ? My grandfather used to say that , for some families, they go rags to riches to rags again, in three generations. I think that his circle was a bit tight, but the general thrust of the idea is sometimes supported by what seems to happen. And yes we in the UK are firmly set on the downward slope, having walked away from faith, through affluence towards selfishness, which is where we were and now into much apathy, and eventually into dependence and bondage.

20 June 2014 at 09:17  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

I agree with Busy Mum.Christian values are essential in the implementing of capitalism to make it work in a fair and just way.It is not happening.

20 June 2014 at 09:53  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Cressida, then read again what Happy Jack said about Catholic social teaching. It supports neither socialism nor capitalism.

20 June 2014 at 13:54  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...


Your piece make good recruiting literature for the ISIS

Many of them now l imagine are very rich if they want to be

So they are clearly worth more and it is a good opportunity for poor Muslims to make more money from perhaps limited skills

It is the way the world works. Like water and hills etc


20 June 2014 at 15:41  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...


I get your point but love is not always a cuddle.

Do you let children play in the road or do you discipline them when they try?

Discipline is love, but it is always the father's responsibility.

It is not a joint thing or a partnership with your wife, certainly not the school or society.

As a man it is your job, always.

If you fail to do it then you cannot blame others.


National Service.......possibly, but if the father has not done it by 16 then then you can probably forget it or it is a huge job.

If it is too work the darling boy will have to have a very difficult time.

Society will have to be ready for that........

20 June 2014 at 16:45  
Blogger Len said...

I think the way to apply discipline demands to a large extent on each individual, some will respond to 'the carrot' others to 'the stick.'
Perhaps a knowledge of the individual is an important point to be taken into consideration.

(definitely no lashing though!)

20 June 2014 at 17:44  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...


It is deeper than that

If man will not submit to human authority then he will not submit to God

Lashing is small price to pay for salvation


20 June 2014 at 18:19  
Blogger Len said...

You seem somewhat fixated on 'lashing' Phil?.

20 June 2014 at 19:13  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...



Discipline is important

That is why presumably it was needed to keep order with grown men and more importantly to change behaviour in older boys and adults in the army and navy.

Having a chat with someone about your attitude (and we understand because of your background etc) is not going to work.

If you need to forcibly change an adult male's ingrained behaviour that is.

Certainly I think we need to consider it as an alternative to prison (which is not working) for some.


20 June 2014 at 20:16  
Blogger Len said...

Phil,discipline is important.I give you that but it is a matter of choice who or what one submits to..

20 June 2014 at 22:26  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...


I completely disagree

Who chooses men or God?


20 June 2014 at 23:20  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Phil, Jack agrees with Len. God does not want blind submission through fear - but positive assent based on knowing and loving Him. He gave us free will for this very purpose.

21 June 2014 at 02:46  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

I say again. If you cannot submit to men you will not submit to God

Free will or not is not the issue


21 June 2014 at 09:34  
Blogger Len said...

I think i have become a tad bored with this conversation.
Phil you have your view I have mine..
I am just glad that Jesus is in control of salvation not you!.

22 June 2014 at 09:07  
Blogger Jon said...

Your Grace, I think this is an interesting article. Once again, I would question your continued allegiance to the two lodestars of your blog - surely you need to leave the CoE or the Tory party (or maybe both?! ;-)

In any case, whilst not a member of the CoE, except obviously by inheritance, I would suggest that the difference between the Church's views on youth and adult working class problems suggests a rather Tebbit-onian perspective. White working class children have done nothing other than be born into families that may not place great premium on educational attainment, and haven't upped sticks to cross the world in search of greater opportunity (making recent immigrant communities a rather self- selecting sample, education-wise). Adults on the other hand have had a life time of choices to escape their circumstances, or get on their bikes, in Norman's parlance.

Whilst I don't pretend to sympathise entirely with this perspective, could it be that the Church is actually moving in a less compassionate direction where fecklessness (whether real or imagine) is concerned? Perhaps your lodestars may yet re-align?

23 June 2014 at 14:59  

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